Struck from Proof Dies - 1921 Peace $

[TonerGuy]

I was reading the CoinWorld article on Peace $ and began to wonder about how many actual coins are out there that were struck using proof dies...

 

So I checked VAMWorld.com and took a look...

 

VAM-1P - 7 total...

 

http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1P

 

VAM-1F - 11 total...

 

http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1F

 

VAM-1G - 13 total...

 

http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1G

 

VAM-1H... 21 total

 

http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1H

 

So there's a total of 52 coins that have been designated as being struck from proof dies...

 

The CoinWorld article mentions that Morgan stated the average life of a die was about 25,000 coins. Would it be safe to assume that all of the "struck from proof die coins" would be within the first run of the first set of dies - Matte and Satin finish ?

 

Or would it even be less than that run ? Does anyone know if the proof dies were used for a few dozen coins, hundreds, thousands before they were replaced with non-proof dies ?

[coinman_23885]

This is an interesting topic. Have you checked any of Roger Burdette's books? I don't know whether the information is there or not, but it is where I would start looking. Maybe RWB will chime in.

[coinman1794]

I was reading the CoinWorld article on Peace $ and began to wonder about how many actual coins are out there that were struck using proof dies...

 

So I checked VAMWorld.com and took a look...

 

VAM-1P - 7 total...

 

http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1P

 

VAM-1F - 11 total...

 

http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1F

 

VAM-1G - 13 total...

 

http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1G

 

VAM-1H... 21 total

 

http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1H

 

So there's a total of 52 coins that have been designated as being struck from proof dies...

 

The CoinWorld article mentions that Morgan stated the average life of a die was about 25,000 coins. Would it be safe to assume that all of the "struck from proof die coins" would be within the first run of the first set of dies - Matte and Satin finish ?

 

Or would it even be less than that run ? Does anyone know if the proof dies were used for a few dozen coins, hundreds, thousands before they were replaced with non-proof dies ?

 

Using the business strikes that we know we're struck from Proof dies between 1956 and 1963 as examples, we know that these dies were used for the life of the dies, which is probably well into the thousands. We know that a number of Proof dies were used to strike business strike quarters from 1956 to 1964 at Philadelphia, and that some Proof dies were used to strike halves in 1958 and 1959. Tracing the die states of these coins reveals that the dies were used until they began to crack.

[TonerGuy]

coinman23885 - I have read Burdette's book but I havent come across estimated population for each.

 

Years ago I found a VAM-1H (before I think it was even recognized as a VAM) and walked it around the LB show. Half of those that looked at it said it was a proof. The other half said it was struck from proof dies. No silver dollar expert could really give me an explanation as to the difference between proof and struck from proof dies except for what number coin it was. Without a providence (the first few coins that can be traced) it would be regarded as struck from proof dies.

 

coinman1794 But I dont know if anyone as done any "die state" studies of these coins. I dont even know if there are any examples that have die cracks to be able to do that.

[RWB]

A couple of key points:

1. All real proof Peace dollars were made on a medal press - never on a production toggle press.

2. Not all of the 1921 pieces presently called "proofs" are actually products of a medal press. Collectors should make a critical comparison between the various specimens floating about and observe the amount of detail visible on the obverse and reverse.

3. All real proof Peace dollars were struck exactly the same way. The sandblast pieces were then sandblasted at the Philadelphia Mint. Some production press pieces were also sandblasted at the mint and privately outside the mint (usually in hopes of selling them as "proofs.")

4. It appears that the same dies used for proofs were later used in circulation production, but we have only die scratches and very old guesses to support that.

 

I have not seen any modern (last 10 years) critical examination of 1921 proofs vs circulation coins to verify the very old assumptions. (W. Miller, van Allen-Mallis, etc>)

 

As for quantities made, George Morgan (as quoted in Bob Julian's 1960s archival research) put die life at just a few thousand pieces on average. My research (Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921) quotes Morgan as saying that some dies blew apart under the pressure of coining. The two batches of production suggest a clear break from high pressure (nicely detailed coins) to lower pressure (typical flat detail coins). The first group was only about 100,000 pieces and likely consumed a dozen or more dies if Morgan's anecdote is accurate.

 

In summary: Not all the coins currently called "proof" are really medal press proofs. Some are just sandblasted production coins. Below, is a photo of a coin that has the minimum detail for a satin proof. Board member Stuart has a couple of similarly-detailed pieces. Anything less is likely a product of a toggle press from the first 100,000 made.

 

 

As for identifying circulation strike pieces made from the same dies that were used for medal press proofs, that should be reexamined using modern images and information.

[RWB]

PS: There seems to be some long-standing misinformation to the effect that "proof coin dies were specially made."

 

That is only partially correct.

 

All dies were made the same way.

 

After a working die was complete, it could be polished and thereby converted into a mirror-proof die. The inherent detail of all dies was similar, within the range of normal manufacture.

 

Dies for satin and sandblast proofs were not polished or altered. They were simply put in a medal press and the coins struck at above-normal pressure in order to reveal all the detail of the die. The natural die surface was satin.

[TonerGuy]

RWB - thank you for the information... once again your knowledge and insight is invaluable...

 

Two follow up questions... in the CoinWorld article it states that de Francisci supervised production on the first day - do you know or have any idea if the actual real proofs were made during his supervision ? And did he supervise that first batch of 100,000 coins on the toggle press ?

 

The CW article goes on to state that he wasnt given an examples until after Jan 1st of the next year. If he was there on the first day why wouldnt he have received them then ?

[RWB]

De Francisci was present for the first production. The medal press proofs had been made before then for the purpose of obtaining permission to begin production.

 

Morgan evidently wanted to give de Francisci the coins he paid for while he was at the mint, but the Superintendent would not allow it because the coins had not been formally delivered to the Cashier and approved for public release. The sculptor had to wait until Jan 3.

 

Based on coins in the Smithsonian that came directly from de Francisci, the pieces were very well made and had smooth satin-like fields, but the design was not fully brought up as would be the case with a proof.

 

I should also clarify: It is my opinion that some of the "proofs" are not really medal press proofs. Some of the TPG will take exception to the opinion.

[coinman1794]

coinman23885 - I have read Burdette's book but I havent come across estimated population for each.

 

Years ago I found a VAM-1H (before I think it was even recognized as a VAM) and walked it around the LB show. Half of those that looked at it said it was a proof. The other half said it was struck from proof dies. No silver dollar expert could really give me an explanation as to the difference between proof and struck from proof dies except for what number coin it was. Without a providence (the first few coins that can be traced) it would be regarded as struck from proof dies.

 

coinman1794 But I dont know if anyone as done any "die state" studies of these coins. I dont even know if there are any examples that have die cracks to be able to do that.

 

It is not necessary to study specific dies to observe that the Type B and Type 2 dies were well-used, but I was speaking from experience. I have seen a large enough number of these to observe that many/most of the dies started out very reflective (ranging from very Prooflike or nearly so), and gradually turned satiny and frosty as the mirrors eroded. I have seen examples of quarters and halves that were beginning to develop die cracks, as well as die clashing. These retired Proof dies seem to have been used until worn out, which is pretty typical of general die usage. This makes sense, considering the point of using these Proof dies was presumably to prevent them from going to waist.

[RWB]

Coinman1794 - not sure what you mean by Type B and Type 2....

 

The normal surface of a new die was smooth, metallic with a satin-like appearance from the final acid dip after hardening and tempering.

 

In the late 1920 and into the 1950s, new dies received a gentle smoothing with an abrasive lap. This was done to remove small burrs caused during manufacture. The had been done manually, but the number of dies became too great for detailed hand work. After lapping the die was acid dipped to remove any oxidation products caused by heat treatment.

 

A proof die was identical to any other production die until it was given a mirror-like polish.

[coinman1794]

Coinman1794 - not sure what you mean by Type B and Type 2....

 

The normal surface of a new die was smooth, metallic with a satin-like appearance from the final acid dip after hardening and tempering.

 

In the late 1920 and into the 1950s, new dies received a gentle smoothing with an abrasive lap. This was done to remove small burrs caused during manufacture. The had been done manually, but the number of dies became too great for detailed hand work. After lapping the die was acid dipped to remove any oxidation products caused by heat treatment.

 

A proof die was identical to any other production die until it was given a mirror-like polish.

 

Roger,

 

The Type B Washington quarters and Type 2 Franklin halves were struck from retired Proof dies. The slight design differences are the reason for the special designations (The Proof design was modified from the business strike design starting in 1937 for quarters, and in 1956 for halves). I brought them up as an example of how Proof dies were used in later years. There are examples with deeply mirrored surfaces, the only difference from a Proof, in some cases, is that they are only struck one time, and the planchets have typical defects.

 

1959 Type 2 Reverse NGC MS65PL:

[TonerGuy]

De Francisci was present for the first production. The medal press proofs had been made before then for the purpose of obtaining permission to begin production.

 

Morgan evidently wanted to give de Francisci the coins he paid for while he was at the mint, but the Superintendent would not allow it because the coins had not been formally delivered to the Cashier and approved for public release. The sculptor had to wait until Jan 3.

 

Based on coins in the Smithsonian that came directly from de Francisci, the pieces were very well made and had smooth satin-like fields, but the design was not fully brought up as would be the case with a proof.

 

I should also clarify: It is my opinion that some of the "proofs" are not really medal press proofs. Some of the TPG will take exception to the opinion.

 

When you say first production does that mean he was there for the first day or just a few hours ? Is there anyway to know how many coins he "supervised" the production of ?

 

Also, were di Francisci's coins struck from proof dies ? I am assuming by your statement that none of di Francisci's coins were actual proofs made from the medal press and all were made on the toggle press.

[coinman1794]

.

 

In the late 1920 and into the 1950s, new dies received a gentle smoothing with an abrasive lap. This was done to remove small burrs caused during manufacture. The had been done manually, but the number of dies became too great for detailed hand work. After lapping the die was acid dipped to remove any oxidation products caused by heat treatment.

 

This circumstance may help explain, to some extent, the weird file lines I have been observing between 1934 and 1954 on the polished PL coins.

[RWB]

Coinman1794 - most die scratches are from the circular lap and contamination of the normal abrasive with coarser particles. Manual retouching will be irregular.

 

re: Quarters -- OK, I was trying to figure out how you got to quarters from Peace dollars -- was that at the change machine?

 

TonerGuy RE: When you say first production does that mean he was there for the first day or just a few hours ? Is there anyway to know how many coins he "supervised" the production of ?

 

Also, were di Francisci's coins struck from proof dies ? I am assuming by your statement that none of di Francisci's coins were actual proofs made from the medal press and all were made on the toggle press.

 

Di Francisci was at the Philadelphia Mint when the first circulation strikes were begun. We don not know if he spent the day or just a few hours. He lived in NYC so the train ride to/from the mint was a couple of hours door-to-door.

 

There really was nothing made as a "proof die." All the dies were the same. The one or two that were used in a medal press to strike satin and sandblast proofs, were then used in standard production. This is why I recommend some specialists try to start with real 1921 proofs, then follow the die(s) characteristics to coins made for circulation. The old assumptions (as on VAMworld, for example) might not be true.

[RWB]

RE: "The Type B Washington quarters and Type 2 Franklin halves were struck from retired Proof dies."

 

I don't know about 1950 forward, but from 1936-42 retired proof dies were useless junk and destroyed....they were never used for circulation coins because of wear and polishing.

[coinman1794]

RE: "The Type B Washington quarters and Type 2 Franklin halves were struck from retired Proof dies."

 

I don't know about 1950 forward, but from 1936-42 retired proof dies were useless junk and destroyed....they were never used for circulation coins because of wear and polishing.

 

That does seem to be the case, as no "Type B" business strikes have been found prior to 1956.

[physics-fan3.14]

.

 

In the late 1920 and into the 1950s, new dies received a gentle smoothing with an abrasive lap. This was done to remove small burrs caused during manufacture. The had been done manually, but the number of dies became too great for detailed hand work. After lapping the die was acid dipped to remove any oxidation products caused by heat treatment.

 

This circumstance may help explain, to some extent, the weird file lines I have been observing between 1934 and 1954 on the polished PL coins.

 

The PL coins seem to be a mix of early die state, brand new dies (like those mentioned here), and retouched later state dies (like others I have observed).

[RWB]

Unlikely PL come from "brand new dies" but could come from dies that developed a problem very early in their lives and were resurfaced.

[Conder101]

That does seem to be the case, as no "Type B" business strikes have been found prior to 1956

I'm not up on Franklins or Washingtons. Were two design hubs used before 1956? I would imagine that at some poit only one hub design was used for both proofs and business strikes. At what point did they begin using one design for proofs and another for business strikes?

[KeyMan64]

Good thread.

[RWB]

Washington quarters with the Type B reverse (beginning 1837, space between ES of States) appear only on proofs up to 1956. But consult a specialist because right now my feeble brain will only go to 1942.

 

(I have some of the engraver's notes about this, but not enough to tell the full story.)

[coinman1794]

That does seem to be the case, as no "Type B" business strikes have been found prior to 1956

I'm not up on Franklins or Washingtons. Were two design hubs used before 1956? I would imagine that at some poit only one hub design was used for both proofs and business strikes. At what point did they begin using one design for proofs and another for business strikes?

 

A Proof design hub was created for Washington quarters in 1937. A Proof design hub was created for Franklin halves in 1956. There forward, Proof Washington quarters and Franklin halves were struck with different designs than were the business strikes (with the exception of those business strikes struck from Proof dies).

[coinman1794]

Washington quarters with the Type B reverse (beginning 1837, space between ES of States) appear only on proofs up to 1956. But consult a specialist because right now my feeble brain will only go to 1942.

 

(I have some of the engraver's notes about this, but not enough to tell the full story.)

 

The Type B quarters appear from 1956 to 1964 on Philadelphia business strikes. The Type 2 Franklin half dollar business strikes appear on P- coins in 1958 and 1959 only.

[RWB]

RE: " (beginning 1837, space between ES of States)"

 

That's according to the dates on Chinese fakes.... I meant to typr 1937 qwerty-io nf;ojf

[mumu]

Just cherrypicked a 1F. Had been looking for one of these for awhile. Couple attributed ones I came across were at a premium so passed.