1858 CANADIAN 20 CENTS (KM4) - How many are left?

[MTHead-migration]

Krause lists a mintage of 750,000. Charlton slighty less at 730,000+ and says many were melted. Are there any reliable estimates of how many have survived?

I have an ANACS net graded example sent in error (I ordered an F12 but an EF40 was sent) that I'd like to keep but am having a hard time justifying the added expense of the higher grade. If the numbers are low enough it would bolster my argument for keeping the better coin.

 

 

HELP!

[truthteller]

This is a scarce coin in high grade. So long as it is graded by Canadian standards, then I would keep the coin. An XF40 20C will be equivalent to an Almost Unc. US coin. The 20C should have luster about the obverse legend and about the leaves on the reverse. A coin with no luster at all and wear of an XF is not considered an XF coin, but a VF. Most collectors will not pay an XF price for an ANACS graded coin.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[MTHead-migration]

The piece I am considering is graded by ANACS as having AU details (I agree with the AU) but was net graded at EF because it has been cleaned. Cleaning is not visible when the coin is viewed straight on but appears as a series of fine horizontal lines on the obverse when the top is tilted toward the viewer.

 

The dealer is asking 190 $US (236 $CDN).

[spiny]

Can you post a picture of the coin MTHead? It's pretty common for these to be graded by US standards, unfortunately, the pricing for them is based on more conservative Canadian grading standards. So if what you have is actually a cleaned EF40, then the price you were quoted isn't that good. I can post a picture of a lightly cleaned VF that I recently picked up when I get home later tonight. It was previously purchased as an EF.

[MTHead-migration]

Pictures are not possible but this coin is almost a twin of the one I have, in remaining detail if not in color.

[spiny]

I'd say EF at best. It looks to me like there is light, even wear over the entire portrait, extending all the way through the fields. I'd bet (but not $345) that the "strong mint luster" is only on the outer edge where it is protected by the devices. I have several VF30 coins that have worn like this, although the areas that still have original surfaces I would describe more as muted luster.

[spiny]

Oh, and I realized as I was driving through Seattle last night that I left the box of coins that I just bought down in Oregon.

 

At least they're safe, but I won't see them until next week.

[Hoot]

Oh, and I realized as I was driving through Seattle last night that I left the box of coins that I just bought down in Oregon.

 

At least they're safe, but I won't see them until next week.

 

Note to self... Never trust spiny with coins...

 

Hoot

[spiny]

Hey, at least I'll already have coins with me when I go to meet up with bigE next week. Crab fest time in Coos Bay, too! (sorry MTHead)

[shirohniichan]

Ah, man! I wish I could meet up with Spiny and BigE to discuss Canadian 20 cent pieces and to eat fresh Oregon crab! It's not fair!

[spiny]

It's not THAT far of a drive, Shiroh... We're going to go metal detecting and drink beer too, or drink beer and go metal detecting. Something like that. You could stop by TJ's on the way and snag his detector.

[TJ]

It's not THAT far of a drive, Shiroh... We're going to go metal detecting and drink beer too, or drink beer and go metal detecting. Something like that. You could stop by TJ's on the way and snag his detector.

And I have a very, very nice detector for sale, cheap, plus 10% discount to misguided SoCal friends to boot.

[shirohniichan]

It's not THAT far of a drive, Shiroh... We're going to go metal detecting and drink beer too, or drink beer and go metal detecting. Something like that. You could stop by TJ's on the way and snag his detector.

And I have a very, very nice detector for sale, cheap, plus 10% discount to misguided SoCal friends to boot.

 

Dang! Too bad I don't qualify for the discount.

 

I was just by TJ's house three weeks ago. They said some spiritual advisor told him to keep building on his house so ghosts wouldn't get him... or something like that.

 

I have two brothers in Eugene I could visit after the beer and MD fest. If only I could figure some way to get more vacation time right away...

[spiny]

Isn't that what they invented the flu for?

 

The real reason TJ has to keep building on his house...

[TJ]

[shirohniichan]

Have you seen TJ's house? It's huge, but kind of creepy. Here's a snapshot my daughter took when we were in his neighborhood three weekends ago:

[spiny]

Did TJ buy that when they banned assault houses down there? Man! No wonder he has so many cats! There could be whole herds of them in there that he doesn't even know about.

[TJ]

Hey, but I let my parents live in a trailer right behind me. Truth!

[MTHead-migration]

Are there any reliable estimates of how many have survived?

 

I guess a better question would be: Are there any reliable figures on the number melted?

A member of a different board guessed as many as 500,000 were turned in and melted but could offer no proof. Anybody here know how many or where to look?

 

Thanks,

M.T. Head

[spiny]

I doubt there's anyone that could answer that question with any authority, MT.

[shirohniichan]

I doubt there's anyone that could answer that question with any authority, MT.

 

I'll say it if everyone else is unwilling to.

[spiny]

[spiny]

Here's the 20 center that I was talking about. I think it's a good example of a VF. There's light wear, but still most of the detail in the braid. You can also see hints of luster around the legend. Too bad that it had dark toning splotches across the face and neck. You can still see the telltale tan areas of the dipped off deep toning.

[MTHead-migration]

I'll say it if everyone else is unwilling to.

 

shirohniichan: What is it you will say if everyone else is unwilling?

Do you know how many were melted?

[Bruceswar]

Have you tried contacting the Canadian Royal Mint? Maybe they have some sorta records?

[MTHead-migration]

Have you tried contacting the Canadian Royal Mint? Maybe they have some sorta records?

 

Yes. The info office response:

 

"Thank you for your interest in the Royal Canadian Mint. Unfortunately,

the Mint does not have the information you are requesting as the Royal

Canadian Mint did not "exist" in 1858. The Mint as we know it today was

actually a branch of the British Royal Mint. As such, all records prior

to the formation of the Royal Canadian Mint are available from the

British Royal Mint (www.royalmint.com). I encourage you to contact them

in order to obtain information pertaining to your inquiry."

 

I have submitted a request for information to the British Royal Mint and will post any response I receive from them.

[MTHead-migration]

First an Acknowledgement – This post would not have been possible without the help of Mr. Joseph Payne, Assistant Curator of the British Royal Mint. Mr. Payne’s efforts in procuring and mailing me copies of the pertinent pages from the Royal Mint’s Annual Reports went far beyond any help I hoped to receive.

 

 

1858 Canadian Twenty Cent Coin Mintage And Melt Numbers

 

$150,000 in Twenty Cent pieces were minted in 1858. This dollar amount is listed in the 1891 British Royal Mint Annual Report and is repeated in the 1906 Report as well. This equates to 750,000 coins; the figure listed in the Krause Standard Catalog Of World Coins.

 

Beginning in 1885 Twenty Cent coins were removed from circulation and returned to the Royal Mint for recoining. All dollar amounts listed are from Mint Annual Reports for the year in the first column.

 

1885 – $18,000 – 90,000 coins

1888 – $17,174 – 85,870 coins

1889 – $16,585 – 82,925 coins*

1894 – $15,000 – 75,000 coins

1899 – $18,895 – 94,475 coins

1906 – an unknown number of 5, 10 and 20 Cent coins ( total face value of $7,460.75)

Total – $85, 654 – 428,270+ coins melted ( approximately 321,730 possible survivors )

 

*An alternate dollar amount is listed in the 1891 Annual Report

1889 – $17,074 – 85,370 coins

Total – $86,143 – 430,715+ coins melted ( approximately 319,285 possible survivors )

[spiny]