Bust Half question

[Joel-migration]

This 1813 has some characteristics and I'm unsure what caused them. Also, are they a common occurence for Early Halves?

 

This dentils on this coin are only ~60% complete. Where the dentils are non-existent, The date and fields appear much closer to the edge of the coin. The points of the stars extend towards the edge (almost a sliding into position).

 

On the reverse, the letters are incomplete, the tops of the letters are ragged and it appears to also have these extensions toward the edge.

 

Thanks in advance,

Joel

 

[kryptonitecomics]

It looks like just an off center strike to me...not the kind that brings premiums mind you..but just slightly off center so that bottom edge of the Obverse isn't fully struck.

 

You don't see any signs of the coin being filed do you? The coin doesn't look completely round in the small images you posted so I was just wondering if the edge might have been tampered with......not saying it was....just a question

[EZ_E]

Joel,

 

Bust halves are by no means my specialty but the coin looks a little "off" to me. Perhaps one should question its authenticity?

[Joel-migration]

It is ~33mm and has the writing on the edge. I'm not sure about the weight being correct.

[BankNote1]

A bust half does have "fifty cents or half dollar" on the edge of the coin. The diameter is 32.5mm. The weight should be 13.48 grams.

Do you have a photo of the entire coin?

[Joel-migration]

Here is a photo.

 

[kryptonitecomics]

Still looks like an of center strike to me......but bust halves are far from my specialty so other more knowledgable collectors should be along to give opinions.

 

The strike looks very soft in the center and I agree that the coin looks a little odd to me......I just don't have the background to say it's not genuine

[Hoot]

The points of the stars extend towards the edge (almost a sliding into position).

 

On the reverse, the letters are incomplete, the tops of the letters are ragged and it appears to also have these extensions toward the edge.

 

I don't have my copy of Overton with me, so I can't identify the variety, but the coin looks genuine. It has been cleaned and appears to be dulled from the cleaning.

 

As KC said, the coin is slightly off-center. The characteristics of the stars and letters having "trails" to the rim of the coin is quite common on bust halves and is from die wear. The more use the dies got, the more mushy and less crisp all of their devices would become. A close inspection of the coin would likely reveal that the other devices do not meet the fields squarely, although the cleaning may mask that to some degree.

 

This is the kind of coin I like to put in my pocket and carry around for a while (a year or so) to help the surfaces regain some of their "original" appearance. Then stick the coin in a paper grocery bag and leave it on your shelf for another year. This might help its appearance dramatically.

 

Hoot

[Dermott]

Looks like the coin is struck just slightly off center, but not enough to be of note. The drawing of the stars, lettering a date to the edge is due to the lateness of the die state for the coin being struck and is relatively common for the series. The lateness of the die state is also seen in the die cracks that are seen on both the obverse and reverse. The variation in the date position is due to the date being struck into the die itself by hand.

[Joel-migration]

The coin didn't strike me as cleaned when I bought it and it's being slightly washed out by the lighting. I suppose it may have been cleaned some time ago.

 

Thanks for everyone's input. It's extremely helpful.

[TomB]

I came to this thread very late but I will still mention my opinions on the piece. There is nothing wrong with this coin other than the cleaning. I would not consider it off-center, it is definitely genuine, it has a completely natural die-state look to it, the mushy letters near the rim are quite common on this series as are the incomplete or ragged letters for the incuse wording.

 

When I get home I will take out my Overton and see if I can attribute it for you.

[James_OldeTowne]

Bust halves struck between 1811 and 1814 are very prone to clash-marks, misaligned dies, faulty planchets, strike doubling, and any number of striking anomalies that lend character to the coins, and make this such a fascinating and enjoyable series. It's why they are, hands down, my favorite coins.

 

Your coin is genuine, and in fact high-grade. I'd say EF-45. The missing denticles is merely the result of extensive die wear, and as you have noted, there are various die-cracks which were caused by the two dies clanging together. In other words, the coin press was accidentally operated while there was no blank planchet between the dies to be struck, so the dies struck each other, imparting a ghost of an image of each onto the other die. Extremely commonplace for dies in the years I mentioned. You also note the die-crack that makes a large V-shape through the date - another expected result of extensive die usage.

 

You can see the extensive stress lines at the edges of the coin. That's those parallel, raised hairlines extending radially outward from the bottom of the letters all the way to the edge of the coin. This is also why the milling is incomplete and missing - extensively worn dies.

 

Bust halves were struck with no collar (ie. the "third die" that surrounds modern coin planchets and imparts the reeded edge), so to say it's "slightly off-center" is almost redundant in that there was no collar to keep the coin centered.

 

I've had an idea for a while to start a thread just for attributing Bust halves. Would anyone be interested in participating in such a thread? You would need to be able to supply high-quality images, preferably scans (instead of digital photographs). I think it would be loads of fun for us to share our Busties with each other....

 

James

[Joel-migration]

Tom and James,

 

Thanks for the additional input. This is the only Bust Half I currently own so I'm trying to get my hands on a copy of the Overton book. If you are able to determine the attribution and could let me know, I would really appreciate it.

 

Any additional halves I acquire, I'll make sure to get your opinions.

 

Thanks again.

[James_OldeTowne]

Joel, PLEASE don't take this as a spam, but you're welcome to browse the halves on my site any time, just to look and not buy. I have several higher-grade coins with good enough images that you can see die cracks, clashes, and various other "character" flaws that these coins can show.

 

James

[Joel-migration]

James - what is your site?

[TomB]

I should welcome you to the boards, Joel; welcome.

 

Similar to James, I adore CBHs, but I own relatively few. Most extant CBHs have been cleaned in the past, as yours has, and this limits the numbers of them that I acquire. I will also agree with James that your coin is relatively high grade, though I would not go so far up as EF45. The reverses of these coins, during this time frame, are notorious for having poorly or incompletely struck eagles, especially the left wing. in fact, I don't know if I have ever seen an 1810 that is superbly struck.

 

I was at work last night when I posted and so kept the details of the coin at a minimum. As James has alluded to, these coins were struck out of collar (or open collar) as opposed to the closed collar struck coins that commenced in the 1830s. The closed collar imparts the familiar reeded edge that we all know, and originally also served the purpose of detering shaving off precious metal from the edge of the coin since the reeding would be missing and would signal an altered coin.

 

These CBHs were put through what is called a Castaing machine where the planchets were rolled between steel bars that had raised lettering. This rolling procedure resulted in the incuse lettering found on all lettered edge coinage. If there was an offset starting position error then the coin would have parts of the incuse lettering either doubled, run on top of one another or missing. It is fascinating to find such coins.

 

Your coin is an 1813 O.105a and is an R3. Some care must be taken in considering the R3 determination for this piece as the determination is based upon the die state in this instance and not the die marriage as would be typical. The O.105 is an R1, making it relatively common, the O.105a designation denotes the advanced die cracks present mainly on the reverse and has its own R rating. I view this coin more as an O.105 because I am not so concerned with die states, though there are some others who are concerned with this. The fact that there are severe die cracks hints at the fact that this would be a more rare Overton variety as the die pair would not have stayed in use for much longer.

 

By all means you should buy an Overton. Many coin shops will have them, as will Stack's and you will likely find one used on ebay. Buy the 1990 edition as it is the latest edition.

 

Have fun with these gems!

[Joel-migration]

Tom

 

Since you guys are providing such valuable information, I might as well as one more question.

 

The lettered edge has most of the writing - I can discern "FIFTY CENTS HALF DOLLAR", the "OR" and "A" lacking or worn. Only "FIFTY" is completely struck on the edge, the others are between 75 and 50%, complete with the rest running off the top edge of the coin. Also, it's tough to determine but I can see almost ghost words in between the easliy read ones. For instance, in between the HALF and DOLLAR in looks like it reads FIFTY. And, just before HALF is looks like there is an OR. Are these just optical allustion? Would all writing on the edge have the same "strike".

 

I wish I could provide a picture of the edge, any ideas?

 

BTW, I hope I'm not taking up too much of anyone's time.

 

Joel

[chinook]

Welcome Joel,

 

Nice coin and one of my favorite designs as it was just such a coin that my Great Uncle gave me when I was a wee lad and got me hooked on coins.

 

I cant believe I am actually going to say this but I have to disagree with TomB on the attribution. I think your coin is actually 107. R-4. It is always difficult to see from a scan but I believe the die cracks on both the obverse and reverse match the description of 107 precisely

[TomB]

I think you're right about me being wrong! The O.105a reverse looked very similar to this reverse and then I simply stopped. Although, I believe the coin may be an O.107a, not an O.107, because of the extensive die cracks on the reverse and the die cracks on the obverse. This would make it an R1.

 

Thank you for pointing out my mis-attribution.

[chinook]

Tom, I think you are correct. I did the same as you. I looked at the reverse and saw 107 and stopped. I never even considered flipping over the page to see 107a as the minor varieties are usually listed just below.

[James_OldeTowne]

((( James - what is your site? )))

 

Joel, PM sent, so as to avoid spamming.

 

Please note that when you buy the Overton book (about $65 at Brooklyn Galleries), it will feature "rarity ratings" for all the various die marriages, ie. "R1" or "R4", indicating a relative level of rarity. "R5" die marriages, for example, being rare, are considered to command a substantial premium over "R1" coins, which are common. Unfortunately, even the 1990 edition has many "rare" ratings that have been reduced to just "scarce" or even "slightly common" in the ensuing fifteen years since the book was published. Just be aware of this before you pay any substantial premiums for rarer die-marriages.

 

I sincerely hope you get interested in busties, as it is the best (and safest) early series out there for someone just starting out, or branching away from more commonly-collected Classic or modern series.

 

BEST OF LUCK!!!!!!

 

James

[TomB]

The Bust Half Nut Club (BHNC) came out with new rarity ratings for all half dollars, 1794-1836 exclusive of Reeded Edge halves, last summer. I have the chart in pdf format and would be happy to email it, if it isn't too large, to whomever wants it. Also, I will see if I can find it already listed on the web.

[Mozin]

Your coin is Overton 107 and currently R1. The cracks and the die clashes are usually found on this variety. The little bit off center is something that happened a lot on Bust Halves in the earlier years.

[stman]

The Bust Half Nut Club (BHNC) came out with new rarity ratings for all half dollars, 1794-1836 exclusive of Reeded Edge halves, last summer. I have the chart in pdf format and would be happy to email it, if it isn't too large, to whomever wants it. Also, I will see if I can find it already listed on the web.

 

--------------------

 

 

Hi Tom. I believe this it what you were referring to?

Edit to add, I see I only have the Capped Bust series linked. BHNC Updated Rarity Ratings

[TomB]

Yes, that's exactly what I am referring to. There is also a Pre-Turb updated pdf and I have this on my computer. If you would like a copy, simply send me a PM and I'll get one to your email address.