My AU-58 is now NGC MS-63!

[James_OldeTowne]

I was browsing through the unsold Heritage coins (and there are a BUNCH of them), when I came across this 1822 Capped Bust half . It is graded MS-63 by NGC.

 

I used to own this coin.

 

There's no mistaking the black toning dots on the reverse, as well as a couple on the obverse, not to mention the classic old-time album toning. I also remember exactly who I sold it to and when, and for how much.

 

The weird thing is, I originally cracked it out of an NGC AU-58 holder! I also remember selling it at that same grade. If this coin were truly an MS-63, with the kind of colorful toning it has, I would pay $3000 for it. As it is though, looks like bidders realize it's really a slider, as Heritage can't even get $12XX for it.

 

Interestingly, at the buy-it-now price, the person who bought it from me isn't making a whole lot of money. But I guess there is potential money to be made cracking out sliders and resubmitting for an UNC grade. What if such sliders could be bought, the hints of rub hidden, and the coins graded much higher?

 

I'm heartened to know that people who have viewed this coin have apparently passed on it. Seems to indicate that more and more buyers are indeed learning to buy the coin, not the holder.

 

James

[michael]

great educational thread

[Merc]

That coin is a super slider. I have seen other AU58's and they are nice but you can see the wear on the high points. This coin has almost no wear at all. There are a few lighter spots lie the high hair curl over the ear. The color changes to a lighter grey. There are also a few color shifts on the bust showing the lightest rub. Is there more wear (hairlines in the fields) we can't see? It looks so nice for a 58.

[EZ_E]

Excellent thread!

 

James Garcia,

 

You still have my vote for the #1 educational poster. Thanks a million (and I am very sincere and not puffin' smoke signals up your kiester).

 

[James_OldeTowne]

EZ_E, THANKS!

 

I appreciate it.

 

The 1822 bust half was the epitome of what AU-58 should represent - MS-63 with rub discoloration on the high points. I happen to believe in gradeflation, and what used to be AU-55 eight years ago, today passes for AU-58. Therefore, the AU-58's of eight years ago, do they become MS-60's? NO, because MS-60 is a really UGLY UNC. Instead, they are being slipped into MS-62 and MS-63 slabs, because they are really attractive coins.

 

I have a very good reason for bringing up this particular 1822. At the St. Louis last month, show, the same guy who bought this one from me bought another, only this time, an 1827. This coin, I cracked also from an old fat-slab NGC AU-58 holder, and the buyer told me the coin would be graded "new" next time it got submitted.... and he stated this with great conviction. Now, I got my money's worth ($750) out of the coin, but if it were to go MS-63, we all know that it's suddenly a $1500 coin.

 

Food for thought...

 

James

[EZ_E]

Therefore, the AU-58's of eight years ago, do they become MS-60's? NO, because MS-60 is a really UGLY UNC. Instead, they are being slipped into MS-62 and MS-63 slabs, because they are really attractive coins.

 

James

 

Makes perfect sense but it does hurt the consumer in the long-run, as well as the grading service. If this practice abounds then years down the road there will little confidence in that particular grading service and their grade won't mean squat (just like ACG).

 

I would much, much rather have a nice AU58 (i.e. slider AU63) than a MS 60/61 any day of the week but if grade-flation continues then there won't be any nice AU58's left in the market.

 

Anyway, just my NOT so humble opinion.

 

But, then again, TPGS's are more of a pricing organization than a grading service. If viewed in this light then many, including myself, would pay better money for a sweet AU58/AU63 than for an ugly, low mint state coin.

 

Do you agree?

[HaydenTubbs]

Yep,that's a AU-58.

Still a beauty though,but not for even MS-60 money!

[Oldtrader3]

Nice AU58 material has been disappearing for awhile now. We have discussed around the subject several times on how hard it is to find strictly graded AU58 material. James is correct though, AU58 coins do not end up in MS60/61 holders. They have too much luster and better surfaces than the low end MS grades. So you end up with more grade pressure and compression between high-end MS62 and MS66.

 

The distribution curve warps to the right and into modialities and the grading services feel the crunch.

[SilverGigolo]

If legitimate AU 58's are in high demand why are you cracking them out and selling them raw? Seems odd to me. The slabbed coin, if from a reputable service like ICG, NGC, PCGS, ANACS (the big four), should have more possibility of selling well.

[EZ_E]

If legitimate AU 58's are in high demand why are you cracking them out and selling them raw? Seems odd to me. The slabbed coin, if from a reputable service like ICG, NGC, PCGS, ANACS (the big four), should have more possibility of selling well.

 

Because a slider can be sold as uncirculated to most with a healthier premium.

[Oldtrader3]

A true AU58 slider looks like a MS64 coin, but will not technically slab that high. People crack them and sell them raw attempting to capitalise on the "look", luster and surfaces of the coin. Many collectors will pay a large premium over AU for one of these coins. You probably need to look at several specimins in your series of interest to see what I am referring to.

[James_OldeTowne]

(((If legitimate AU 58's are in high demand why are you cracking them out and selling them raw? Seems odd to me.)))

 

That's a fantastic question, and I'm glad you asked. Believe it or not, there ARE still coins that are worth more not slabbed, because the huge majority of their collectors do not like slabs. By this, I mean bust halves and early copper. Note that I would never crack out, for example, an AU-58 Barber quarter! But the fact is, most collectors who specialize in early material simply do not want coins in slabs.

 

(((The slabbed coin, if from a reputable service like ICG, NGC, PCGS, ANACS (the big four), should have more possibility of selling well)))

 

I've tried it both ways, and always have come to the same conclusion that I just stated. I have no problems selling bust halves uncertified, because I've built a trusting relationship with my customers.

 

But the issue I'm focusing on isn't about selling raw coins! On the contrary, if coins were never cracked out, then I bet we'd never know about grade-flation....

 

James

[TomB]

I think you might be able to add Barber half dollar collectors to the legions who prefer their coins raw. Unless, of course, you are writing about Barber half dollar collectors who are chasing the MS coins.

[SilverDollarMan]

good thread!

[Tradedollarnut]

mmm - what were the words .... negligence and fraud?

[James_OldeTowne]

Tradedollarnut, you need to go back and re-read my opening post for this thread, because you completely missed the point (I think).

 

The premise of this thread is totally different than the one you are thinking of.....

 

James

[Tradedollarnut]

The premise of this thread is totally different than the one you are thinking of.....

 

 

Obviously. What criteria do you use to pick and choose your premises? Why is one thread full of fire and brimstone [ie: discussion of gross negligence and fraud], whereas the other not? The fact that one significantly changed in value and the other didn't? Hardly something a grading company should control.

[James_OldeTowne]

(((The premise of this thread is totally different than the one you are thinking of.....

 

Obviously. What criteria do you use to pick and choose your premises? Why is one thread full of fire and brimstone [ie: discussion of gross negligence and fraud], whereas the other not? The fact that one significantly changed in value and the other didn't? Hardly something a grading company should control. )))

 

Tradedollarnut, I think you really blew it. Did you totally miss this statement in my opening post?

 

((( What if such sliders could be bought, the hints of rub hidden, and the coins graded much higher )))

 

NOwhere in that "other" thread was the possiblity of coin doctoring alluded to.

 

The point you completely missed (in this thread) is that the bust half in question was bought by a self-proclaimed coin doctor, and, I suspect, altered to get into a "new" holder.

 

Nobody that I'm aware of in that "other" thread alleged that the dime had been altered. All that had been changed was the PCGS grade.

 

Just to clarify for anyone else who might have missed what Tradedollarnut missed, the coin in THIS thread was, in my opinion, altered, resulting in the higher grade by NGC. The coin in the OTHER thread had no known alteration (at least none that was pointed out by the people who examined the coins or the images), with no reason give as to why it moved into a higher grade by PCGS.

 

Or, are you stating that the PCGS coin WAS altered??

 

James

[Tradedollarnut]

The point you completely missed (in this thread) is that the bust half in question was bought by a self-proclaimed coin doctor, and, I suspect, altered to get into a "new" holder.

 

 

Ahhh - doctored! Yuck!

 

No, I missed that insinuation completely. Even on rereading your post, it's very subtle.

[EZ_E]

TDN, I'm missin' what you're dissin' but not missin' your hissin'.

 

I'm a little confused about what you're fussin' about.

[Tradedollarnut]

I'm a little confused about what you're fussin' about

 

I missed the allegation that the coin had been doctored in order to get it into an MS holder. I was wondering why in the other thread [discussing an AU58 that got regraded MS62] words such as 'gross negligence' and 'fraud' were used when no such words were used in this thread. Doctoring is the answer to my question.

 

But.... should we be worried that the doctoring wasn't detected?

[EZ_E]

...and no comment on my poetry, TDN? But, you so inspired me.

[James_OldeTowne]

((( But.... should we be worried that the doctoring wasn't detected? )))

 

You bet we should!

 

So, shall we agree that doctored coins are "gross" and NGC was negligent in not catching it!

 

But in all seriousness, this particular gentleman claims that he can consistently get higher grades on coins. To go into a bit further detail, his m.o. as he explained it is that he must start with a coin that's already somewhat toned, and then he can "remove" slight wear. Whatever his technique is - and I haven't a clue about it nor did I ask - apparently, it won't work on a blast-white coin.

 

Some of you may know who I'm talking about....

 

James

[Tradedollarnut]

Another one?

[James_OldeTowne]

Are those two 15/2s FOR SURE the same coins? The appear to have different clash-marks to me....

 

James

[Elcontador]

The price spread re this series in MS 65 between blue and greysheet is as wide as the Pacific Ocean. Don't know about other grades. However, for a Capped Bust Half in 5 to get greysheet $ (in the low to mid $6,000 range), it must be ALL THERE. There is a lot of junk floating around encapsulated in plastic in this series.

 

These coins IMO are among the hardest to grade. If one isn't fully struck, I don't want it. I've passed on a nice one in 5 back of greysheet bid for the reason stated above, and I may very well never own one of this series. From what I've seen, usually, the old choice AUs in 19th century type might be seen in MS 62 holders, but apparently, while NGC missed it on this one, potential buyers figured it out.

 

From the luster breaks in the obverse, you can see wear on some of the curls, as another poster has mentioned. It's a really nice AU coin.

[Tradedollarnut]

Oops - here's another one! Pray tell - doctored, gross negligence .. or fraud?

 

Roadrunner's 1803 Half dime - see post in this thread

 

The topic of AU58 or MS62 has been discussed a lot as of late.

Here's another example that might add to the discussion.

 

Here's an 1803 half dime that recently went from NGC AU58 to NGC

MS62. It sold in the HNAI Palm Beach sale for over $14,000. How do I know? I owned the coin for over 18 months as an AU58.

[James_OldeTowne]

Negligence?

 

Most likely.

 

Fraud?

 

I haven't seen before and after pictures, so it would be impossible to decide.

 

Which do you think?

 

James

[Tradedollarnut]

I think 'none of the above'.

[James_OldeTowne]

Then we'll have to go forward with difffering opinions - which is fine! But I do not, and will not, believe in an imaginary "fine line' between AU-58 and MS-62, and if there's "rub" that keeps an MS-62 from being '3, that rub should keep it as an AU-58. And yes, I still think it is negligent (careless, whatever you want to call it) for NGC OR PCGS to be inconsistent between two grades that are four levels apart.

 

I know this attitude won't make me rich, since I won't be the one getting AU-58s into MS-62+ holders, but I'll be comfortable knowing that some things matter more to me than how PCGS or NGC "grades" a slider.....

 

James