Is this coin really a "6"?

[BillJones]

Like it or not, you had better well learn how to "split hairs," or you are going to lose your shirt very quickly in the coin business. You can't ignore it when there are thousands or tens of thousands of dollars at stake.

 

I felt the same way as you did back in the mid 1980s when the Sheldon grading numbers started to be applied to all coins. It was just too much hair splitting. Eleven Mint State grades??? Forget it !!! The trouble is the market dictates the prices, and the prices are based upon the grading numbers. You either adapt or pay for it later.

 

My main goal is to hold the standards on grades and fight "grade-flation." Even that is a losing battle. I can show you coins in "NGC fatty" and PCGS "green label" holders that are much more conservatively graded than they now. That's why I wince when I see collectors over grading coins in the "guess the grade" topics that are posted here and ATS. Collectors are shooting themselves in the foot when they willingly lower the standards for base grades like AU-50 and EF-40.

 

[Prethen]

LuckyOne, I would guess most of us agree with you as far as the "spirit" of coin quality evaluation goes. The problem here is not the number on the holder as much as the implied valuation it gets with that number. As a member of this board has said in the past, the grading service assigns a market value to the coin...not really a real grade. The coin has enough distractions for most of us to avoid purchasing it at the assigned market grade/value given to it, hence the bewilderment among the ranks for this holder.

[coinman_23885]

LuckyOne, I would guess most of us agree with you as far as the "spirit" of coin quality evaluation goes. The problem here is not the number on the holder as much as the implied valuation it gets with that number. As a member of this board has said in the past, the grading service assigns a market value to the coin...not really a real grade. The coin has enough distractions for most of us to avoid purchasing it at the assigned market grade/value given to it, hence the bewilderment among the ranks for this holder.

 

I agree with you, and it also demonstrates the inherent problems with market grading. There are members opining that this should be in a 64 or 64+, and presumably worth as much as problem free examples. I wouldn't touch this even as a 64, and assuming that was the correct grade, I still think it would be low end given the severity of the marks even if the fields are clean.

[coinman1794]

this is how silly grading has become. When I was a boy starting out in the hobby, there were no numerical designations and the Sheldon system was NOT a system of grading but a system of valuation! Mr. Sheldon must be spinning in his grave, and I personally think the 70 point system should have been a 100 point system, or maybe not invented in the first place since all it did was cause people to split the hairs that they were already splitting.

 

I want ta ask you all one thing- can we just enjoy the hobby? I love beautiful coins and I personally dont care what grade you or a tpg puts on a coin, it is insignificant to a true numismatist or true lover of coins. When I buy a coin, I buy it because it is BEAUTIFUL or extremely rare, in either case someone else's opinion doesn't matter unless they're buying it for me. When I spend money, I evaluate it and pay what I think it is worth, damn the grade assigned.

 

This coin IS beautiful, has a decent strike, great luster and nice surfaces. That is the way this coin would have been described fifty years ago, and the grade would be BU, period. The value is what someone will pay for it regardless of the grade assigned, and if that was the way we still bought and sold coins nothing would be different than it is today except we wouldn't be splitting hairs like I see in this thread. No disrespect guys, and you are well within your rights to split hairs and state your opinions, but what is gained? This is why I would rather buy a raw coin. I get tired of hearing ignorant dealers and coins sellers say 'but the pros said...". Pros are pros but they aren't the final word, the buyer gets the final word, and if a dealer split as many hairs on a coin as I see here, I'd respectfully decline to deal with him. A coin is what it is, and a mere opinion on a slab will never change that...

 

I'm not sure I follow....You said you are tired of people blindly taking the word of the "pros" at the grading services; but also, you "would decline to deal with" someone who picked apart the assessment given by services.

 

There seems to be almost a consensus here that this MS66 grade is off by at least 3 grades--that is not splitting hairs, by any stretch of the imagination. A lot is gained if a novice collector/investor learns that this coin is not worth the price of a true MS66. Because this is 2015 and not 1965, the difference in value is $3740 ($4750 MS66 vs $1010 MS64, PCGS price guide).Truthfully, an honest, knowledgeable dealer has an obligation to have this piece downgraded or otherwise removed from the market. Unless the coin was graded after he bought it, it would have been wise not to purchase it as a 66 in the first place.

[Lucky One]

this is how silly grading has become. When I was a boy starting out in the hobby, there were no numerical designations and the Sheldon system was NOT a system of grading but a system of valuation! Mr. Sheldon must be spinning in his grave, and I personally think the 70 point system should have been a 100 point system, or maybe not invented in the first place since all it did was cause people to split the hairs that they were already splitting.

 

I want ta ask you all one thing- can we just enjoy the hobby? I love beautiful coins and I personally dont care what grade you or a tpg puts on a coin, it is insignificant to a true numismatist or true lover of coins. When I buy a coin, I buy it because it is BEAUTIFUL or extremely rare, in either case someone else's opinion doesn't matter unless they're buying it for me. When I spend money, I evaluate it and pay what I think it is worth, damn the grade assigned.

 

This coin IS beautiful, has a decent strike, great luster and nice surfaces. That is the way this coin would have been described fifty years ago, and the grade would be BU, period. The value is what someone will pay for it regardless of the grade assigned, and if that was the way we still bought and sold coins nothing would be different than it is today except we wouldn't be splitting hairs like I see in this thread. No disrespect guys, and you are well within your rights to split hairs and state your opinions, but what is gained? This is why I would rather buy a raw coin. I get tired of hearing ignorant dealers and coins sellers say 'but the pros said...". Pros are pros but they aren't the final word, the buyer gets the final word, and if a dealer split as many hairs on a coin as I see here, I'd respectfully decline to deal with him. A coin is what it is, and a mere opinion on a slab will never change that...

 

I'm not sure I follow....You said you are tired of people blindly taking the word of the "pros" at the grading services; but also, you "would decline to deal with" someone who picked apart the assessment given by services.

 

There seems to be almost a consensus here that this MS66 grade is off by at least 3 grades--that is not splitting hairs, by any stretch of the imagination. A lot is gained if a novice collector/investor learns that this coin is not worth the price of a true MS66. Because this is 2015 and not 1965, the difference in value is $3740 ($4750 MS66 vs $1010 MS64, PCGS price guide).Truthfully, an honest, knowledgeable dealer has an obligation to have this piece downgraded or otherwise removed from the market. Unless the coin was graded after he bought it, it would have been wise not to purchase it as a 66 in the first place.

this is how silly grading has become. When I was a boy starting out in the hobby, there were no numerical designations and the Sheldon system was NOT a system of grading but a system of valuation! Mr. Sheldon must be spinning in his grave, and I personally think the 70 point system should have been a 100 point system, or maybe not invented in the first place since all it did was cause people to split the hairs that they were already splitting.

 

I want ta ask you all one thing- can we just enjoy the hobby? I love beautiful coins and I personally dont care what grade you or a tpg puts on a coin, it is insignificant to a true numismatist or true lover of coins. When I buy a coin, I buy it because it is BEAUTIFUL or extremely rare, in either case someone else's opinion doesn't matter unless they're buying it for me. When I spend money, I evaluate it and pay what I think it is worth, damn the grade assigned.

 

This coin IS beautiful, has a decent strike, great luster and nice surfaces. That is the way this coin would have been described fifty years ago, and the grade would be BU, period. The value is what someone will pay for it regardless of the grade assigned, and if that was the way we still bought and sold coins nothing would be different than it is today except we wouldn't be splitting hairs like I see in this thread. No disrespect guys, and you are well within your rights to split hairs and state your opinions, but what is gained? This is why I would rather buy a raw coin. I get tired of hearing ignorant dealers and coins sellers say 'but the pros said...". Pros are pros but they aren't the final word, the buyer gets the final word, and if a dealer split as many hairs on a coin as I see here, I'd respectfully decline to deal with him. A coin is what it is, and a mere opinion on a slab will never change that...

 

I'm not sure I follow....You said you are tired of people blindly taking the word of the "pros" at the grading services; but also, you "would decline to deal with" someone who picked apart the assessment given by services.

 

There seems to be almost a consensus here that this MS66 grade is off by at least 3 grades--that is not splitting hairs, by any stretch of the imagination. A lot is gained if a novice collector/investor learns that this coin is not worth the price of a true MS66. Because this is 2015 and not 1965, the difference in value is $3740 ($4750 MS66 vs $1010 MS64, PCGS price guide).Truthfully, an honest, knowledgeable dealer has an obligation to have this piece downgraded or otherwise removed from the market. Unless the coin was graded after he bought it, it would have been wise not to purchase it as a 66 in the first place.

 

I think you misunderstood- what I meant was if a dealer had to go sa far as to give every reason he could come up with to convince me the coin was something I could easily see it wasn't, I would buy elsewhere. I am in agreement with what most have said here and have no beef with any of it. By the way- I was already a hobbyist in 1965 and I can tell you there wasn't much hair splitting going on back then- you had two mint state grades back then- uncirculated and gem uncirculated, period, and the difference in cost between the two was barely 25% in most cases. The prices were so low and reasonable back them also that the difference really wasn't so great that a person, IF there was slabbing back then, would want to break it out and resubmit it. The grading services made the hobby less dangerous to those who wanted to profit from it most and that is the progression we got ever since David Hall strated slabbing coins. Not to blame the man, he had a goo idea, he just never saw this coming I don;t think. Nuclear energy was a good idea too, but others found a way to use it against us. I think you get my drift...

[coinman1794]

As a long time numismatist, you have a great, first-hand perspective on parts of the hobby others can only read about. It sounds like w are incomplete agreement on this coin, as well as on the nature of the hobby, both then and now.

[dragon]

<<< Is this coin really a "6"? >>>

 

 

Why sure....it's really a pcgs MS66. Just like this 1885- P Morgan is an MS63 and this 1894 Indian cent is a full red coin in the professional opinions of pcgs. And yes, people DO willingly pay good money for these professional grades :-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[david3142]

That is without a doubt the nicest (technically speaking) MS63 I've ever seen.