Augustus Saint Gaudens 1907 High Relief 1 1

[RWB]

On 3/13/2022 at 6:00 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Right...but the Bloomfield UHR has "MS" and not "PF" on the label.  

Doesn't matter what the slab label says -- it's what your bank account says that counts.

[GoldFinger1969]

1907 MCMVII UHR Rankings as per this article and the folks who have seen many of them: 

1.  Bloomfield UHR   
2.  "Wall Street" UHR 
3.  Simpson UHR 
4.  Trompeter-Morse UHR   
5.  Browning UHR 

https://coinweek.com/featured-news/coin-rarities-related-topics-ultra-high-relief-saint-gaudens-20-gold-pattern-realizes-2-76-million/

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/13/2022 at 7:23 PM, RWB said:

Doesn't matter what the slab label says -- it's what your bank account says that counts.

Apparently, Bob Simpson had his re-done with his name on it.  May have said "Hein" before him.  Or no name on it.

[RWB]

On 3/13/2022 at 7:23 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Trumpeter-Morse UHR   

Ed Trompeter - no connection to fascists and liars of similar name.

Edited March 13, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, have you seen the 1907 UHRs in person ?  Any comments on the rankings above ?

[RWB]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Roger, have you seen the 1907 UHRs in person ?  Any comments on the rankings above ?

I've examined several. The "rankings" are of no importance to me. That is a sales (or ego) subject.

Edited March 14, 2022 by RWB

[RWB]

There are version with a fin rim and with a flat  (normal) rim --- no US coins were ever made with a "wire rim" or "wire edge."

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:02 PM, RWB said:

There are version with a fin rim and with a flat  (normal) rim --- no US coins were ever made with a "wire rim" or "wire edge."

I guess people understand "wire" not "fin" in relation to "flat."

[Henri Charriere]

On 1/15/2021 at 12:08 PM, RWB said:

No US coins, including MCMVII double eagles, were prepared with a "wire edge." Coin edges were either plain, reeded, or lettered. About half the MCMVII DE were struck with a mismatch between planchet, dies and collar. This created pieces with a pronounced fin at the outer edge of the rim. This was a serious defect for gold coins....

Good example of an attribution----that became an attribute.  [If OH is watching, "how ya like my wordsmithing skills now?"]            Man I love this place. 

[RWB]

On 10/19/2022 at 10:18 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Good example of an attribution----that became an attribute.  [If OH is watching, "how ya like my wordsmithing skills now?"]            Man I love this place. 

Not "word smithing;" it's accurate description. A "fin" has long standing historical references and clear US Mint definition. "Wire" has no US Mint meaning at all and when applied to a coin rim or edge is simply confusing laziness or possibly studied ignorance.  Change for the better.

[GoldFinger1969]

I thought this might get some activity but it looks like the starting asking price, plus the fees, pushes the coin too close to $48,000:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1250691/1907-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-MCMVII-High-Relief-Flat-Edge-NGC-MS-65

It's an MS-65 and flat-edge (no fin, as Roger would say  ), a unique combination, but buyers at this level tend to be very savvy and price-knowledgeable and I think the total cost to get bids would be $40,000 give or take.  I'll have to check HA to see where the market is for this particular coin and grade. 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Proof (?) High Relief Intrigue: / From an old Heritage Auction non-sale.  I include Breen's comments because even if his facts sometimes didn't pan out, some of his statements here may have been independently verified.  I highlighted the interesting sections:

"...As Walter Breen said in 1977, "Proofs were evidently made on several occasions for presentation purposes, from more than one of the pairs of dies used for this issue, with two different edge collars, and in several different finishes."

The earliest appearances of proof High Reliefs trace their origins to the collection of Chief Engraver Charles Barber, whose controversial role in the production of Saint-Gaudens' design is well documented elsewhere. The first auction appearance of the issue was in the Adolphe Menjou Collection (Numismatic Gallery, 6/1950), lot 1846. According to the lengthy lot description, the coin was obtained from "the widow of a gentleman associated with the Mint in 1907." The cataloger further states that two High Relief proofs were purchased from the lady, and these were "the only two proof specimens that have come to our attention."

One year later a proof High Relief was offered in the ANA Sale (Jim Kelly, 8/1951), lot 770A. In his lot description Kelly offered considerable information about the identity of the gentleman associated with the Mint:

"Acknowledged as the most beautiful United States coin, it has always been very popular with collectors as well as noncollectors. However, with all its popularity, there has always been a mystery surrounding Proofs of this issue. Only one specimen has been offered at public sale, Lot No. 1846 in the Menjou Sale.

"With due respect to the cataloguer, I believe I am publishing for the first time the correct history and number of these coins struck. Mr. Newcomer, the famous numismatist, purchased these coins from the Barber Collection. Mr. Barber was one of the head engravers at the Mint during this period. There was a note with these coins stating that 'There were only five pieces struck on a medal press.'

"I am indebted to Mr. Wayte Raymond for this information. He purchased all five pieces when he bought the Newcomer Collection."

The fact that the coins came from Barber's collection should dispel any doubt about the coin's proof status. As chief engraver of the Mint, Barber would certainly understand the criteria for a proof coin, and he knew the circumstances of the coin's production better than anyone else. Breen points out the fact that there are considerably more than five specimens of proof High Relief double eagles known today, but Barber may have meant that only five specimens were struck at the particular time when this group of coins was created.

Breen reports the coin in Kelly's description was made using edge collar 1, distinguished by the level bases of the M in UNUM. Research by proof gold specialist Dr. Robert Loewinger indicates that examples produced with this collar are of the Flat Rim variety. Only six Flat Rim High Reliefs have been certified as of this writing. If only one of the recorded submission events is a resubmission, the number of specimens certified would coincide exactly with the number Barber reports struck. Barber may well have given an accurate account of the striking of the Flat Rim High Reliefs in his note."

Roger said in his book: "....there likely are several High Relief double eagles that do qualify as specially struck coins. The Waldo Newcomer pattern inventory lists several examples he purchased from the Charles Barber estate that had slightly different dies and curvature. Although these examples have not been identified by modern researchers, these coins were specially struck and qualify as Proofs under most numismatists’ interpretation of pattern and experimental strikes."

Net-Net:  It appears that some specially-struck coins by Barber got considered "proofs" (probably would be PL today) over the decades.  The Newcomer collection apparently housed many/all of them at one time.

Does anybody know when the last time NGC certified an MCMVII High Relief as proof ?  Can I get that information off the NGC website ?

Edited November 11, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

There are no HR "proofs." I referred to the pre-HR pieces that were supposed to be melted - but we don't know much about them except they evolved into the MCMVII HR coins.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:26 PM, RWB said:

There are no HR "proofs." I referred to the pre-HR pieces that were supposed to be melted - but we don't know much about them except they evolved into the MCMVII HR coins.

I do agree with you....but those 5 Newcomer/Barber coins are still out there.  And the NGC holders still say "PF" on them.

FWIW.....

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:31 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I do agree with you....but those 5 Newcomer/Barber coins are still out there.  And the NGC holders still say "PF" on them.

FWIW.....

[The "High-Wire" jammies are my personal favorites. True, Roger was disinclined to accept my made-up term, but that's life. You win some; you lose some.]  

[RWB]

Coins with a fin are simply less well made than the later ones without a fin. The pushed up metal designated nothing except an improper match between planchet, die and collar -- not, as Sir Wally Wombat claimed -- extra force used.

[zadok]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:20 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I guess people understand "wire" not "fin" in relation to "flat."

...u r correct n most of the "collecting" community call them "wire" rim....

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/11/2022 at 9:17 PM, zadok said:

...u r correct n most of the "collecting" community call them "wire" rim....

Now this is exceedingly rare!  Do I detect an attempt to co-sign, i.e., endorse my made-up term? No offense to Hog, but I go the whole hog: I call 'em "High Wires."  As long as nobody calls me late for dinner, who cares?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:37 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[The "High-Wire" jammies are my personal favorites. True, Roger was disinclined to accept my made-up term, but that's life. You win some; you lose some.]

I'd probably like to get -- if I could afford it -- the "Flat Rim" version only because it's rarer.

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/12/2022 at 12:55 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'd probably like to get -- if I could afford it -- the "Flat Rim" version only because it's rarer.

"Flat Rim" sounds so Pffft!  "High-Wire" evokes the specter of a Wallenda or Philip Petit performing a crossing between the then newly-opened Trade Center towers.  This hobby can use a little more imaginative descriptors.  

[GoldFinger1969]

Nice article on what to look for in buying an MCMVII High Relief by Doug Winters:

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2022/12/13/what-i-look-for-when-im-buying-an-uncirculated-1907-high-relief-double-eagle

Bookmark his blog, he has lots of other good articles especially if you are into Carson City gold, Liberty DEs, and small denomination gold coins pre-1900.  He doesn't write as much on Saints but does every now and then.

[Just Bob]

On 12/20/2022 at 9:35 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Nice article on what to look for in buying an MCMVII High Relief by Doug Winters:

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2022/12/13/what-i-look-for-when-im-buying-an-uncirculated-1907-high-relief-double-eagle

Bookmark his blog, he has lots of other good articles especially if you are into Carson City gold, Liberty DEs, and small denomination gold coins pre-1900.  He doesn't write as much on Saints but does every now and then.

Very interesting quote from this article:

"A good number of the High Reliefs graded AU58 and lower have been cleaned or lightly polished at one time; most of these are still straight-graded by PCGS and NGC. "

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:26 PM, RWB said:

There are no HR "proofs." I referred to the pre-HR pieces that were supposed to be melted - but we don't know much about them except they evolved into the MCMVII HR coins.

Roger, if you struck those HR's exactly the same with the same dies and polish and same force....but one HR was on a regular toggle press from that era and the other was on the medal press from that time.....how would they compare ?

Edited December 20, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:46 PM, Just Bob said:

Very interesting quote from this article:

"A good number of the High Reliefs graded AU58 and lower have been cleaned or lightly polished at one time; most of these are still straight-graded by PCGS and NGC. "

 

Yeah, very interesting....and in an other article talking about the Bass Auction he mentioned a coin that was AGGRESSIVELY cleaned.....you could EASILY see the hairlines from cleaning in the upper left quadrant of the coin, an 1833 Quarter Eagle which was graded PCGS PR63 Cameo.  It did not CAC. 

They were plain as day, even to me, and the coin still got a grade in the 60's. 

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2022/10/3/six-bass-i-coins-i-liked-an-analysis

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/20/2022 at 10:35 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Nice article on what to look for in buying an MCMVII High Relief by Doug Winters:

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2022/12/13/what-i-look-for-when-im-buying-an-uncirculated-1907-high-relief-double-eagle

Bookmark his blog, he has lots of other good articles especially if you are into Carson City gold, Liberty DEs, and small denomination gold coins pre-1900.  He doesn't write as much on Saints but does every now and then.

I've read a lot of stuff from Doug Winters over the years about Saints, and the like, but I have no compunction, in upbraiding (I almost wrote upgrading ) him about his use of the term High Wires©️ which I have successfully fooled no one in believing I'm the sole copywriter of.   

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/20/2022 at 4:48 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I've read a lot of stuff from Doug Winters over the years about Saints,

I've followed him for a few years....he talks about Double Eagles (more Liberty's than Saints) but he seems to really save the bulk of his commentaries for Southern Gold coins and gold coins smaller than double eagles. 

That was the first column solely on Saints/High Reliefs (as opposed to mentioning them in a blended article) that I can remember in years. 

[RWB]

On 12/20/2022 at 2:31 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Roger, if you struck those HR's exactly the same with the same dies and polish and same force....but one HR was on a regular toggle press from that era and the other was on the medal press from that time.....how would they compare ?

They wold differ in detail, metal flow, edge impression and overall surface appearance. A toggle press makes 1 quick blow; a medal press makes slower blows with greater total force. Metal crystals move and deform differently under different conditions.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/20/2022 at 9:02 PM, RWB said:

Metal crystals move and deform differently under different conditions.

Metal press or Medal press ?   I've seen both on this forum.

If it IS "medal" press I presume it was used primarily for all the commemorative medals they struck. 

Or maybe not....

[RWB]

It is a hydraulic press used for striking medals and proof coins. Commonly called a "medal press."