Augustus Saint Gaudens 1907 High Relief 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

Doug Winter, a specialist in gold and double eagles, wrote this in CoinWeek when discussing 2020's Hot and Not stuff.  For "trophy coins" he said this:

In 2019, an average quality PCGS MS63 1907 Wire Edge High Relief $20 typically sold for around $20,000. In late 2019/early 2020 a substantial hoard of High Reliefs in MS63 through MS65 came onto the market and prices dropped to $14,000-15,000 by the middle of 2020. Prices rose slightly towards the end of the year but these are likely to remain flat in 2021.

https://coinweek.com/us-coins/classic-us-gold-coins-whats-hot-and-whats-not-2021-edition/

Does anybody have any comments on this ?  I agree with the general thrust of 1907 HR Saints falling in price, but I was unaware of any "hoard" or even a floof of MS-63 through MS-65's suddenly hitting the market all of a sudden (although my previous comments about demographics and inheritors/estates selling coins from original or 2nd-hand owners would be increasing).

I also would say that MS63's were going for a total price closer to $18,000 and MS65's closer to $25,000 - $30,000 (going off the top of my head).  I was tracking the prices pretty closely for a while and one can always check the internet for actual sales prices.

Edited January 15, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

No US coins, including MCMVII double eagles, were prepared with a "wire edge." Coin edges were either plain, reeded, or lettered. About half the MCMVII DE were struck with a mismatch between planchet, dies and collar. This created pieces with a pronounced fin at the outer edge of the rim. This was a serious defect for gold coins. This was corrected by director Leach in December 1907 and remaining pieces have little or no fin.

As for Mr. Winter's market comments, there is no reason to doubt his observations.

[GoldFinger1969]

49 minutes ago, RWB said:

No US coins, including MCMVII double eagles, were prepared with a "wire edge." Coin edges were either plain, reeded, or lettered. About half the MCMVII DE were struck with a mismatch between planchet, dies and collar. This created pieces with a pronounced fin at the outer edge of the rim. This was a serious defect for gold coins. This was corrected by director Leach in December 1907 and remaining pieces have little or no fin.

Right, Roger....I thought the split was 2/3rds Wire and 1/3rd flat ?  Your book I believe notes that once the production was fixed the wire fin disappeared and they were all flat.  But all the labels with WIRE or FLAT do so beause before your book and research some thought it really was a different type of coin instead of a production error that was fixed by Leach as you noted.

 

49 minutes ago, RWB said:

As for Mr. Winter's market comments, there is no reason to doubt his observations.

Nope, and over the last few years I agree with his price observations for all but the ultra-high end.  I just think his pricing was off a bit and was looking for more color on a surge in supply of 1907 HR's MS63-65.  No articles on that, but maybe it was something talked about amongst dealers.

This could be something where you have "creeping supply" -- not a flood, just a slow trickle -- and then when the price decline is big enough you have folks wake up in another year or two or three and say "Wow, look at the drops !" and then you see the articles in CoinWeek and other publications.

Edited January 15, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

59 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Right, Roger....I thought the split was 2/3rds Wire and 1/3rd flat ?  Your book I believe notes that once the production was fixed the wire fin disappeared and they were all flat.  But all the labels with WIRE or FLAT do so beause before your book and research some thought it really was a different type of coin instead of a production error that was fixed by Leach as you noted.

 

Nope, and over the last few years I agree with his price observations for all but the ultra-high end.  I just think his pricing was off a bit and was looking for more color on a surge in supply of 1907 HR's MS63-65.  No articles on that, but maybe it was something talked about amongst dealers.

This could be something where you have "creeping supply" -- not a flood, just a slow trickle -- and then when the price decline is big enough you have folks wake up in another year or two or three and say "Wow, look at the drops !" and then you see the articles in CoinWeek and other publications.

The book data is correct, but I don't recall the details. I really do not care what the labels say - they are wrong here, and wrong again when they apply the identical term to the knife-rim Eagles of 1907. Just more the the confused Breenisms and lies the hobby has been repeating for generations. Good thing the Breeners don't carry explosives and storm the ANA headquarters..

[GoldFinger1969]

Next coin show I go to I want to look at a Wire Rim and Flat Rim side-by-side.  Pics don't do justice but I'll try some HiDef views and hopefully close-ups stay sharp.

[RWB]

Many fin rim pieces have been handled to the coin that much of the original fin is gone. This was a concern of the Philadelphia Mint Superintendent -- the missing fin metal might make the coin below legal weight.

[GoldFinger1969]

18 minutes ago, RWB said:

Many fin rim pieces have been handled to the coin that much of the original fin is gone. This was a concern of the Philadelphia Mint Superintendent -- the missing fin metal might make the coin below legal weight.

Really ?  What was the tolerance allowed on the low-end ?

If the wire fin got worn, heck even if the entire wire fin disappeared, it doesn't look like it could be more than 1-2% of the entire weight of the coin.  But maybe I'm guestimating wrong.

Edited January 16, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Really ?  What was the tolerance allowed on the low-end ?

If the wire fin got worn, heck even if the entire wire fin disappeared, it doesn't look like it could be more than 1-2% of the entire weight of the coin.  But maybe I'm guestimating wrong.

The minimum legal weight of a new double eagle was 515.50 grains out of a normal weight of 516 grains. It would not take much of a fin to equal 0.5 grain of gold alloy.

[GoldFinger1969]

14 minutes ago, RWB said:

The minimum legal weight of a new double eagle was 515.50 grains out of a normal weight of 516 grains. It would not take much of a fin to equal 0.5 grain of gold alloy.

Yeah, I looked at the pictures in your High Relief Chapter and the potrusion looks like it could amount to that.

I had forgotten you included some great examples of the Fin vs. Flat in that chapter.  Good job ! 

 

[RWB]

Just now, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yeah, I looked at the pictures in your High Relief Chapter and the potrusion looks like it could amount to that.

I had forgotten you included some great examples of the Fin vs. Flat in that chapter.  Good job ! 

 

I try....

[GoldFinger1969]

1907 Ultra High Relief sold for $3,600,000 (incl. bp) last month.

Wow...first time auctioned since 2003......this is the Norweb UHR that has only changed hands a few times since their family gave it up.  Details are in the HA description.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-high-relief-double-eagles/1907-20-ultra-high-relief-normal-edge-lettering-pr68-ngc-jd-3-low-r7/a/1327-3802.s?ic=ih-clickImage-1907-$20-ultra-high-relief-1327-012921

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

$4,112,500:  The Bloomfield UHR, considered by some the finest of the Ultras, was sold for just over $4 MM in April:

https://coinweek.com/us-coins/1907-ultra-high-relief-double-eagle-graded-by-pcgs-sells-for-4-1-million/

 

[GoldFinger1969]

MCMVII High Reliefs:  Pricing remain strong.  After watching AU-58's fall to just over $10K with bp., an AU-50 CAC went for just over $10K this past weekend.  Looks like prices are up 15-20%.

A Details HR coin also went for just over $10K.  Prices for similar coins were in the $7-$8K range for most of 2019 and 2020.

Rising prices across the board, high-quality CAC and "+" coins for commons like 1923-D going for just under $7,000 up from $5,500 or so 18 months ago.

[Alex in PA.]

Well, this thread certainly did get 'exciting'.    

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/29/2021 at 8:00 AM, Alex in PA. said:

Well, this thread certainly did get 'exciting'.    

So much so that I automatically assumed @GoldFinger1969 was the OP.

That guy slid in quietly and left quietly, only five days later.  

I am going to send in the forensics technicians to determine if it was something someone said or did, or whether he moved on to greener pastures of his own volition.  

[Alex in PA.]

2 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I am going to send in the forensics technicians

I recommend the Feeble Bureau of Intimidation.

[Henri Charriere]

21 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

I recommend the Feeble Bureau of Intimidation.

No, I am going to go over that by now thread-bare post with a fine-toothed comb, and report my findings, forthwith.

[GoldFinger1969]

Pages 3 & 4 of this thread aren't showing up.

[comicdonna]

I am seeing pages 1 through 4  (107 replies)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/10/2021 at 7:23 AM, comicdonna said:

I am seeing pages 1 through 4  (107 replies)

Yeah, they came back.....some sort of web glitch last last night where some black text error message came up.

Edited August 10, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

[@GoldFinger1969...  as long as we're talking about missing PAGES, representing the thoughts of people, what does it mean when a thread with 🦵legs, such as Collectors Universe,  gallops or gallivants by, but not before a phrase steeped in soothsayer-like mysticism is displayed:  "55 deleted messages in this conversation."?]       🤔

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/10/2021 at 11:35 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

[@GoldFinger1969...  as long as we're talking about missing PAGES, representing the thoughts of people, what does it mean when a thread with 🦵legs, such as Collectors Universe,  gallops or gallivants by, but not before a phrase steeped in soothsayer-like mysticism is displayed:  "55 deleted messages in this conversation."?]   

I know nothing of that, I believe that since that thread is only 6 pages that there can't be 50+ deleted messages.  I would venture there are that many in total, give-or-take.

Maybe the same error glitch or a variant of it that I saw late last night.

[RWB]

On 6/29/2021 at 1:08 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

an AU-50 CAC went for just over $10K this past weekend

A belated comment - "AU-50" is an exaggeration of EF. There is not such grade - it is merely another way to pump prices without delivering better quality.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/10/2021 at 12:28 PM, RWB said:

A belated comment - "AU-50" is an exaggeration of EF. There is not such grade - it is merely another way to pump prices without delivering better quality.

I am inclined to agree.   There is exaggeration, and then there is the patently ridiculous. Like "almost pregnant."    🐓

[RWB]

On 8/10/2021 at 1:53 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I am inclined to agree.   There is exaggeration, and then there is the patently ridiculous. Like "almost pregnant."    🐓

...or roosters laying eggs.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/10/2021 at 11:35 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

[@GoldFinger1969...  as long as we're talking about missing PAGES, representing the thoughts of people, what does it mean when a thread with 🦵legs, such as Collectors Universe,  gallops or gallivants by, but not before a phrase steeped in soothsayer-like mysticism is displayed:  "55 deleted messages in this conversation."?] 

I thought I typed this but maybe not:  if you have a key thread or pages of interest, download and save them on your own PC.  You never know if a web glitch deletes an entire thread or a few key pages.  Cut-and-paste into Word...or save as a PDF.

Every 5 pages on the Roger Burdette Saints Book thread I save the comments.  That thread is invaluable to me and God Forbid I go on vacation or don't come here for a while and a fight breaks out and a Moderator deletes the entire thread or locks it up.  Or a web attack or whatever affects the entire thread or parts of it.

If a thread is irreplaceable, save the parts you really want preserved.  Don't assume it will be in cyberspace forever.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/25/2021 at 1:01 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

$4,112,500:  The Bloomfield UHR, considered by some the finest of the Ultras, was sold for just over $4 MM in April:

https://coinweek.com/us-coins/1907-ultra-high-relief-double-eagle-graded-by-pcgs-sells-for-4-1-million/

 

Another MCMVII UHR was sold in a private transaction for $4.75 MM to the owner of the 1933 Saint a few months ago (I must have missed it). 

https://www.coinworld.com/news/precious-metals/1907-ultra-high-relief-double-eagle-realizes-4-point-75-million-dollars

I thought it might be the Bloomfield UHR but that is graded MS-68 (not sure why, I thought all the Ultra High Reliefs are proofs).  Anyway, I think I have an article that lists all the UHRs with pics (?) but this one hadn't traded since 2007 apparently.

More and more of these high-end 7 and 8-figure coins seem to be avoiding auction and going for sale in private transactions.

Edited March 13, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 3/13/2022 at 2:05 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Another MCMVII UHR was sold in a private transaction for $4.75 MM to the owner of the 1933 Saint a few months ago (I must have missed it). 

https://www.coinworld.com/news/precious-metals/1907-ultra-high-relief-double-eagle-realizes-4-point-75-million-dollars

I thought it might be the Bloomfield UHR but that is graded MS-68 (not sure why, I thought all the Ultra High Reliefs are proofs).  Anyway, I think I have an article that lists all the UHRs with pics (?) but this one hadn't traded since 2007 apparently.

More and more of these high-end 7 and 8-figure coins seem to be avoiding auction and going for sale in private transactions.

All the UHR $20 are patterns and all were made the same way -- except, the plain edge version did not get the lettered edge strike. Most patterns were made as "proofs" so all of these must be also.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/13/2022 at 2:26 PM, RWB said:

All the UHR $20 are patterns and all were made the same way -- except, the plain edge version did not get the lettered edge strike. Most patterns were made as "proofs" so all of these must be also.

Right...but the Bloomfield UHR has "MS" and not "PF" on the label.  

[GoldFinger1969]

Lineage traced to Col. Green and JF Bell collections.

https://www.greatcollections.com/kb/GreatCollections-and-Heritage-Complete-475-Million-Transaction-for-Ultra-High-Relief-Gold-t442-4.html

Edited March 13, 2022 by GoldFinger1969