EF-40 key-date coins outpace MS-65s

[Leothelion]

EF-40 key-date coins outpace MS-65s

 

Good news for the circulated coin collector!

 

Leo

[TomB]

It's only good news if you don't expect to buy anymore coins at that grade level. Otherwise, it is bad news as these coins are more expensive and are escalating in price faster than some other grade segments.

[jom]

I've always thought that the idea of MS65 being the "standard investments grade" as idiotic. I mean, it's arbitrary isn't it?

 

jom

[Oldtrader3]

Higher circulated and MS (collector) grade key dates have escalated at a much lower % rate than "investment" grade coins. These coins are overdue for a price increase.

[Tradedollarnut]

Have you looked at today's MS65's? Yuck! No wonder they're not appreciating.

 

Now if you factor in the fact that most of today's MS65's were yesteryear's MS63's and 64's [or that most of yesteryear's MS65's are todays MS66's and 67's], then I think you'll find that the right coins at that grade level have certainly appreciated MUCH MUCH more than circulated key dates.

[Wihlborg]

Alas, it’s true, they don’t make MS-65’s like they used to.

 

John

[Oldtrader3]

What really irks me is that almost all MS61/62 gold used to be AU55/58 coins. It is really hard to find a legitimate AU58 gold coin anymore, except in a few auctions. For me, that is a real loss in collecting scarcer dates and series.

[Wihlborg]

What really irks me is that almost all MS61/62 gold used to be AU55/58 coins.

 

And that my friend is the problem with market grading. IMHO the grading companies are not rendering an opinion on the state of preservation as much as they are giving their opinion on how much a coin should be worth.

 

John

[TomB]

the grading companies are not rendering an opinion on the state of preservation as much as they are giving their opinion on how much a coin should be worth.

 

I think John has hit the nail on the head with regard to the AU/MS quandry. This is one reason why I have sold virtually all of my MS61/62 pieces from the early 19th century. I could not convince myself they were truly MS coins, and I did not want an AU piece masquerading as an MS.

[michael]

 

also i hafe always maintained and have said this two years ago on the boards across the street that the slabbing places are pricing services not grading services

 

all those who constantly buy raw coins and then send them in for grading already know what the grades are they just want the slabbing companies to price the coins so they can make a quick buck at the cost of others and this is not against the law but it is still unethical

 

******************************************************

 

tradedollarnut has hit the nail on the head so to speak

 

as per the below

 

 

tradedollarnut

 

Have you looked at today's MS65's? Yuck! No wonder they're not appreciating.

 

Now if you factor in the fact that most of today's MS65's were yesteryear's MS63's and 64's [or that most of yesteryear's MS65's are todays MS66's and 67's], then I think you'll find that the right coins at that grade level have certainly appreciated MUCH MUCH more than circulated key dates.

............................................................

Looking for superb chopmarked trade dollars!

 

www.tradedollarnut.com

 

 

 

 

[chinook]

the grading companies are not rendering an opinion on the state of preservation as much as they are giving their opinion on how much a coin should be worth.

 

I think John has hit the nail on the head with regard to the AU/MS quandry. This is one reason why I have sold virtually all of my MS61/62 pieces from the early 19th century. I could not convince myself they were truly MS coins, and I did not want an AU piece masquerading as an MS.

 

I recently bought a MS-61 Bust half with really nice toning. I returned the coin after I had it in hand as it was an obvious AU piece. It was only worth 1/2 what I was going to pay.

 

It has been said many times before but one should really buy the coin and not the holder

[Leothelion]

the grading companies are not rendering an opinion on the state of preservation as much as they are giving their opinion on how much a coin should be worth.

 

I think John has hit the nail on the head with regard to the AU/MS quandry. This is one reason why I have sold virtually all of my MS61/62 pieces from the early 19th century. I could not convince myself they were truly MS coins, and I did not want an AU piece masquerading as an MS.

 

I recently bought a MS-61 Bust half with really nice toning. I returned the coin after I had it in hand as it was an obvious AU piece. It was only worth 1/2 what I was going to pay.

 

It has been said many times before but one should really buy the coin and not the holder

 

.....and learn how to grade coins for themselves!

 

Leo

[jom]

And that my friend is the problem with market grading. IMHO the grading companies are not rendering an opinion on the state of preservation as much as they are giving their opinion on how much a coin should be worth.

 

I find it hard to understand how technically grading the coin would be any better. I mean, isn't "what's it worth" really the point of grading?

 

I could not convince myself they were truly MS coins, and I did not want an AU piece masquerading as an MS.

 

Does it matter? The question should have been "are these coins nicer than other MS61/62 coins I've seen", no? To me whether it has rub or wear is only relevant if that rub/wear creates a significant decrease in eye appeal. In most high-end AU pieces I've seen most of the time it is something OTHER than the wear that detracts from it's eye appeal.

 

jom

[Wihlborg]

I find it hard to understand how technically grading the coin would be any better. I mean, isn't "what's it worth" really the point of grading?

 

Jom,

 

Not necessarily. Assigning a grade to a coin does have other uses, such as allowing others to at least have some idea as to the quality of a coin without seeing it, but yes, ultimately the point of having a coin graded comes down to what it is worth.

 

The point I was trying to make however is that IMO the grading companies should call a spade a spade and let the market decide what if any premium a high end AU or nicely toned coin is worth.

 

John

[Leothelion]

I find it hard to understand how technically grading the coin would be any better. I mean, isn't "what's it worth" really the point of grading?

 

Jom,

 

Not necessarily. Assigning a grade to a coin does have other uses, such as allowing others to at least have some idea as to the quality of a coin without seeing it, but yes, ultimately the point of having a coin graded comes down to what it is worth.

 

The point I was trying to make however is that IMO the grading companies should call a spade a spade and let the market decide what if any premium a high end AU or nicely toned coin is worth.

 

John

 

Most of the new money that has entered the coin market are from folks that had little to do with coins before the market started rising. Where were these people when the coin market was dead? They don't have a clue what's in the slabs they're buying, they heavily have placed their faith only on what's printed on the slab!

 

Leo

[michael]

leo

 

a true yet scary thought

 

well when the market eventually gets soft the process will start all over with selling at a LOSS regraded with the new market standard by the new or revented grading firms and then the coins placed into other hands

[TomB]

To answer jom's remarks, to me it does matter if a coin is truly MS or if it is AU. I probably won't articulate this well, but I believe that most MS61/62 coins that are desireable and that are really AU58 have two premiums built into their price structures. The first is the MS designation premium that bumps up the price from the AU range while the second is the positive eye appeal premium that bumps the price even more. Essentially, one pays the positive eye appeal premium twice because the TPGs use this criteria to put an otherwise AU coin in an MS61/62 holder to begin with, and then the seller of such a piece will use the eye appeal, independent of the inaccurate grade on the holder, to further increase the price. This bothers me. Also, I like to keep the downside to my collection relatively small and, to do this, I think about what a coin is worth outside of the holder. These MS61/62 animals then become quite tricky as their liquidity, at current price premiums, can drop dramatically and this decrease in liquidity can quickly increase the downside.

[Wihlborg]

Tom,

 

I think you articulated your thoughts very well. In fact what you have stated is exactly how I feel about the matter, so thank you for articulating my thoughts as well!

 

John

[Oldtrader3]

I have to agree with Tom. The mixing of older graded MS61/62 coins with newly graded AU58 coins obscures the market value of these coins. It also complicates the price, buying and bidding process for collectors who bid in auctions, buy sight-unseen, and who can not physically see the coins beforehand. Dealer scan and picture quality further muddies the waters.

 

I think that the TPG's have to look at grading as what it is (by definition) and what it was designed to be, an implied contract, (with underlying integrity) for their customers and the industry. If grading standards are not maintained, the TPG market loses credibility and chaos results. I personally have no desire to return to the bad old days before TPGing.

 

Because of my geographic location, health and circumstances, I can not fly all over the country to attend auctions. I have to depend on the integrity of dealers and, to a great degree, on TPG's. I prefer buying AU58 coins over MS60/61 coins and will pay a premium, but not a double premium. Because of this, my bottom line is that I would rather leave the hobby if chaos prevails and we return to the way things were twenty years ago.

[RGT]

Tom, it's not just the AU58 and MS61/2 coins that have this same issue, as I'm sure you are aware. The same thing happens with higher grade coins getting the nod from the TPG's.

 

I won a "nicely" toned BTW commem on ebay a while back that was graded MS66 by NGC and I paid a premium for the tone. When I got the coin I wasn't sure it was "all there". I showed it to someone who could be considered an expert on classic commems and he graded it MS64 before looking at the label. After he noticed the grade he commented that it must have gotten a bump for the tone.

 

Now, the price of an MS66 is multiples of the price for an MS64 and I paid a tone premium on top of that. I did manage to find someone who really liked the coin a few months later and got out of it at a break-even price.

 

That was one of the few times I've paid a premium for a toned coin. Like OT3, I don't have the oportunity to attend many shows and there is only one dealer local with limited inventory. I have to put more trust in the TPGs than I would like and take my chances buying fom images most of the time. Sometimes I get the bear and sometimes the bear gets me.