Is the grading system changing based on eye appeal?

[Danye West]

I ask this after the discussion on the Rick Snow article. Does anyone think that beauty of the coin, like color, affects the way a coin grades? Is PCGS adapting their grading system based on the toned coin boom? In a seminar, they said eye appeal made up about a fifth of the grading on a coin. Now IMO it seems like about it weighs about half.

[Kurtdog]

Eye appeal like pedigree are ANA market grading standards.

[coinman_23885]

Absolutely. A coin that is ugly will be punished in the grading room. A coin that has exceptional eye appeal is often rewarded in terms of market grade. At least one TPG (PCGS), has even written publicly that eye appeal can bump up a coin as high as 2 points over the technical grade.

[Walkerfan]

No doubt---Color is the big thing in today's market. I recently saw a common WLH with a soft strike that shouldn't have even graded 66, which would've made it a $200 coin. But because of the myriad of color in the bullseye toning pattern on the obverse it sold for over 20 times that and was graded 67!!

[TonerGuy]

Absolutely. A coin that is ugly will be punished in the grading room. A coin that has exceptional eye appeal is often rewarded in terms of market grade. At least one TPG (PCGS), has even written publicly that eye appeal can bump up a coin as high as 2 points over the technical grade.

 

This is truly why I like NGC's * designation. The grade is the grade and the * gives the coin a little more marketability and value (depending on the series).

[coinman_23885]

Absolutely. A coin that is ugly will be punished in the grading room. A coin that has exceptional eye appeal is often rewarded in terms of market grade. At least one TPG (PCGS), has even written publicly that eye appeal can bump up a coin as high as 2 points over the technical grade.

 

This is truly why I like NGC's * designation. The grade is the grade and the * gives the coin a little more marketability and value (depending on the series).

 

I agree. I have seen NGC market grade a coin up occasionally, but usually, the star handles the bulk of it.

[Danye West]

So the question is... when if ever will toned coins be less desirable?

[coinman_23885]

So the question is... when if ever will toned coins be less desirable?

 

I think that coins with exceptional eye appeal will always be in demand whether that is due to toning, blinding luster, etc.. Now the toned coins that are being bumped up 2 points often sell for substantially more than coins that are two grading points up and even if the market on them tanks substantially, this could still feasibly be the case. Nevertheless, I don't care for the practice personally, and I find it deceptive. In many cases, collectors are paying a premium on a premium already built into the coin's holder grade.

 

Here is an example of a coin bumped up for color. In my opinion, this coin should not be in a MS64 holder due to the chatter. I bought it for the color fully aware of this fact, so the grade on the plastic doesn't matter to me.

 

[TonerGuy]

Here is an example of a coin bumped up for color. In my opinion, this coin should not be in a MS64 holder due to the chatter. I bought it for the color fully aware of this fact, so the grade on the plastic doesn't matter to me.

 

 

Beautiful coin.... okay breath-taking coin.

 

Im with you. For me the grade is secondary when it comes to toning. Of course you would love to have a top pop monster. But Id rather have an MS64 even if accurately graded like the coin above then an MS67 with lesser color.

[MarkFeld]

Absolutely. A coin that is ugly will be punished in the grading room. A coin that has exceptional eye appeal is often rewarded in terms of market grade. At least one TPG (PCGS), has even written publicly that eye appeal can bump up a coin as high as 2 points over the technical grade.

 

This is truly why I like NGC's * designation. The grade is the grade and the * gives the coin a little more marketability and value (depending on the series).

 

I wish I agreed, but I don't. In fact, I think you're kidding yourself.

 

I have seen plenty of NGC coins which appeared to be graded higher than they otherwise would be, due to their color and which also received stars.

[david3142]

Here is an example of a coin bumped up for color. In my opinion, this coin should not be in a MS64 holder due to the chatter. I bought it for the color fully aware of this fact, so the grade on the plastic doesn't matter to me.

 

 

Beautiful coin.... okay breath-taking coin.

 

Im with you. For me the grade is secondary when it comes to toning. Of course you would love to have a top pop monster. But Id rather have an MS64 even if accurately graded like the coin above then an MS67 with lesser color.

 

I love this coin. I agree with the point above that the technical grade doesn't matter at all in most cases because the coin goes for way more money than only 1-2 grades higher anyway. Kenny's coin is going to cost 68 money, so whether it grades 63 or 64 is immaterial to most people that would buy it at that level.

 

I wonder about the rare case when a jump in technical grade is worth far more than the bump due to color. I think this probably plays a part in today's market grading. I have recently seen a few 66 Morgan's with gorgeous color that were technically 64s, but I would imagine that no coin is going to get bumped from a 67 to a 69. I think the Moose is probably the limit there at 68+ for a coin that may be technically be a 67 or 67+ (so I've heard). Of course, it did sell for 69 money anyway...

[Hard Times]

I ask this after the discussion on the Rick Snow article. Does anyone think that beauty of the coin, like color, affects the way a coin grades? Is PCGS adapting their grading system based on the toned coin boom? In a seminar, they said eye appeal made up about a fifth of the grading on a coin. Now IMO it seems like about it weighs about half.

 

My experience of submitting 100's of coins to CAC is that eye appeal is only one factor that they consider for A an B coins. I have had coins with incredibly, dripping eye appeal in a grade not CAC, while nearly identical coins for technical aspects, that are essentially DOGS for eye appeal, CAC. This is something that completely mystifies me, CAC does not give credit to eye appeal unless the 'technical grade' is right in their eyes, yet eye appeal is probably the most crucial aspect of what a coin is IMO.

 

Best, HT

[TonerGuy]

 

I wish I agreed, but I don't. In fact, I think you're kidding yourself.

 

I have seen plenty of NGC coins which appeared to be graded higher than they otherwise would be, due to their color and which also received stars.

 

I cannot disagree with your experience. I have only see a few dozen of * coins and of those there is only 1 that I have had questioned the grade. From my experience on the stars that I have received from NGC, the grade has been accurate but my sample size is limited.

 

 

 

My experience of submitting 100's of coins to CAC is that eye appeal is only one factor that they consider for A an B coins. I have had coins with incredibly, dripping eye appeal in a grade not CAC, while nearly identical coins for technical aspects, that are essentially DOGS for eye appeal, CAC. This is something that completely mystifies me, CAC does not give credit to eye appeal unless the 'technical grade' is right in their eyes, yet eye appeal is probably the most crucial aspect of what a coin is IMO.

 

Best, HT

 

I have noticed that as well. And its one of the reason I could careless about CAC beans on toned coins.

[jom]

With toning it just comes down to price. Are you willing to pay 5X or 10X or whatever it is for that wild Morgan? The grade in most cases is irrelevant.

 

As to the "star" designation I'd have to agree with Mark. In fact, a lot of times I'm mystified how the coin got a "star" in the first place let alone the grade it was given. I suppose these days it's highly possible for many of the very nice "star" coins getting cracked out and sent to PCGS so you are left with the more mediocre ones. I don't know....

 

jom

[CaptHenway]

I ask this after the discussion on the Rick Snow article. Does anyone think that beauty of the coin, like color, affects the way a coin grades? Is PCGS adapting their grading system based on the toned coin boom? In a seminar, they said eye appeal made up about a fifth of the grading on a coin. Now IMO it seems like about it weighs about half.

 

Of course. That is why early type sliders with good luster keep getting slabbed as Mint State.

[physics-fan3.14]

I wouldn't say the grading system is changing based on eye appeal. I would say that this effect has been going on for a very long time. It is the essence of market grading, and has been in place for at least 20-30 years. There may be more egregious examples that you can point out, but the practice has been institutionalized. I think few would argue the fact that strong eye appeal should bump the grade of a coin.

 

Most will argue as to how much, however.

[TonerGuy]

With toning it just comes down to price. Are you willing to pay 5X or 10X or whatever it is for that wild Morgan? The grade in most cases is irrelevant.

 

As to the "star" designation I'd have to agree with Mark. In fact, a lot of times I'm mystified how the coin got a "star" in the first place let alone the grade it was given. I suppose these days it's highly possible for many of the very nice "star" coins getting cracked out and sent to PCGS so you are left with the more mediocre ones. I don't know....

 

jom

 

Ive been tracking * toned Peace $ for the past 6 yrs or so and I cant agree with that statement. NGC * toned Peace $ bring significant premiums over their non * NGC counterparts and even PCGS CAC coins. An MS64 * example just sold on EBay last week for $1400. And thats not an anomaly. It wouldnt be financially beneficial to crossover toned * Peace $ to PCGS. Matter of fact it makes more sense for those coins to find their way into NGC plastic.

[Kurtdog]

I have seen plenty of NGC coins which appeared to be graded higher than they otherwise would be, due to their color and which also received stars.

You misunderstand market grading. It's impossible to market grade a coin for its color higher than it should be market graded. If you're rather suggesting these coins you reference are market graded higher than their technical grades would allow, well, sarcastically, now you're really being full of news.

[Nutmeg Coin]

With coins I have had copper spotted gold coins already in the holder submitted to NCS and recall one of the workers there saying that removal *may* help grade due to eye appeal. It just depends how the coin looks afterwards especially if it was already on the line it has a better shot. Are 60/61 coins always inferior in appearance to AU58 ones? No, of course not but there are attractive bottom end MS coins and butt ugly nearly damaged ones.

 

With currency it doesn't matter how fantastic the note looks if it has folds, it will be held down to their grading standard based on their judgment of circulation or handling.

[dimefreak]

So the question is... when if ever will toned coins be less desirable?

 

I think that coins with exceptional eye appeal will always be in demand whether that is due to toning, blinding luster, etc.. Now the toned coins that are being bumped up 2 points often sell for substantially more than coins that are two grading points up and even if the market on them tanks substantially, this could still feasibly be the case. Nevertheless, I don't care for the practice personally, and I find it deceptive. In many cases, collectors are paying a premium on a premium already built into the coin's holder grade.

 

Here is an example of a coin bumped up for color. In my opinion, this coin should not be in a MS64 holder due to the chatter. I bought it for the color fully aware of this fact, so the grade on the plastic doesn't matter to me.

 

 

You said it and not me.... So I'll play now! When I got this submission back I had my wife read the results. Expect two 63's six MS64's and two MS65's. All coin coins graded 64 or higher with one getting MS64+ two got MS65 and one got MS65+! I knew the benefit of getting the above coin in a 64 holder!!! I didn't take advantage of the fact it got a grade bump! That's the difference!!! Many other people would have!!! I'm just not that guy! Grading companies should grade the coin based upon its merits and let the owner of the coin decide its value! I owned the coin raw and already established a fair value of it in my head.

 

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Here is an example of a coin bumped up for color. In my opinion, this coin should not be in a MS64 holder due to the chatter. I bought it for the color fully aware of this fact, so the grade on the plastic doesn't matter to me.

]

 

You said it and not me.... So I'll play now! When I got this submission back I had my wife read the results. Expect two 63's six MS64's and two MS65's. All coin coins graded 64 or higher with one getting MS64+ two got MS65 and one got MS65+! I knew the benefit of getting the above coin in a 64 holder!!! I didn't take advantage of the fact it got a grade bump! That's the difference!!! Many other people would have!!! I'm just not that guy! Grading companies should grade the coin based upon its merits and let the owner of the coin decide its value! I owned the coin raw and already established a fair value of it in my head.

 

 

You were very good to me; there is no doubt about it. I agree with the other points in bold as well.

[dimefreak]

And by the way I know I'm an insufficiently_thoughtful_person for selling the coin and have tries getting it back its a stunning coin and Kenny is a lucky dog to own it!!!!

[dimefreak]

I spent $60k on toned coins in 2011far less in 2012 maybe $1500 in 2013 and 2014 and zero so far in 2015! I still love them but people have gotten plumb crazy both with there pricing and bidding! Buyers and sellers alike! I miss the days when it was a sin to pay a premium for color because today it seems EVERYBODY is doing it!

 

[coinman_23885]

I spent $60k on toned coins in 2011far less in 2012 maybe $1500 in 2013 and 2014 and zero so far in 2015! I still love them but people have gotten plumb crazy both with there pricing and bidding! Buyers and sellers alike! I miss the days when it was a sin to pay a premium for color because today it seems EVERYBODY is doing it!

 

To be honest, while the toned coin market is doing well for the top of the line "monster" pieces, the rest of the market has softened. You might have your wish after all.

[lehigh96]

So the question is... when if ever will toned coins be less desirable?

 

Eye appeal is not a fad and will not simply go out of style without a catalyst. The only foreseeable demise to the toned coin market would be the widespread proliferation of artificial toning techniques that are able to recreate toning patterns that are indiscernible to the trained eye. The result would be a massive influx of toned coins into the market which would decrease the scarcity and value of toned coins. That said, then toned coin collectors would become plastic collectors seeking toned coins that were encapsulated prior to the AT boom.

[TonerGuy]

So the question is... when if ever will toned coins be less desirable?

 

Eye appeal is not a fad and will not simply go out of style without a catalyst. The only foreseeable demise to the toned coin market would be the widespread proliferation of artificial toning techniques that are able to recreate toning patterns that are indiscernible to the trained eye. The result would be a massive influx of toned coins into the market which would decrease the scarcity and value of toned coins. That said, then toned coin collectors would become plastic collectors seeking toned coins that were encapsulated prior to the AT boom.

 

What makes you think we arent already there ? In my opinion, while it might not be widespread, there are more than a few AT coins in top TPG plastic. And it appears as long as PCGS or NGC and/or CAC give a coin its blessing the coin is deemed market acceptable and no one really questions the toning.

 

I think it will require that a verifiable coin doctor toning specialists comes forward with undeniable proof of his/her skill as well as their high rate of success in getting AT coins into PCGS or NGC holders the toned coin market will not be compromised by even the belief of AT coins in PCGS or NGC plastic. I think it would take someone coming forward with evidence of hundreds to thousands of AT coins in plastic. Otherwise we will just live with market acceptability and wonder.

[AHFreak]

I think everyone knows there are possible AT coins in legit holders....

 

But I also think that its a little bit far fetched to propose that we are already at a place where coin doctors can artificially tone coins to replicate this "monster toning" that buyers are paying thousands for.... Im not saying it has never been done, but don't you think that if we were to a place where even one "coin doctor" could tone coins to look anything like the true monster toned Morgans that are selling for $5K +/-, that there would be a few more of them being sold? Seems to me like in the last year that I have been around paying attention, that in the handful of true monsters that sold, multiple people have owned that coin, saw that coin, absolutely know that coin etc... How many "new monsters" have hit the market? Doesn't seem to me like many.

 

That is how we know we are not there yet.... IMO

[Nutmeg Coin]

I've got this toner that NGC judged questionable color/AT: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1934-25C-Heavy-Motto-Washington-Quarter-ICG-MS65-/331486448667?

 

So I sent it to ICG with the instruction on the invoice to conserve before grading and they will do that if they believe it is indicated. They straight graded it instead, I showed it to a number of sharp dealers including Robert Riemer who is local and he thought it was OK or there was enough room for uncertainty for it to be graded. But zany color, you never know for sure the source.

[coinman_23885]

I've got this toner that NGC judged questionable color/AT: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1934-25C-Heavy-Motto-Washington-Quarter-ICG-MS65-/331486448667?

 

So I sent it to ICG with the instruction on the invoice to conserve before grading and they will do that if they believe it is indicated. They straight graded it instead, I showed it to a number of sharp dealers including Robert Riemer who is local and he thought it was OK or there was enough room for uncertainty for it to be graded. But zany color, you never know for sure the source.

 

I hate to say it, but I agree with NGC that it looks questionable to me. I might feel differently if I saw it in hand.

[lehigh96]

So the question is... when if ever will toned coins be less desirable?

 

Eye appeal is not a fad and will not simply go out of style without a catalyst. The only foreseeable demise to the toned coin market would be the widespread proliferation of artificial toning techniques that are able to recreate toning patterns that are indiscernible to the trained eye. The result would be a massive influx of toned coins into the market which would decrease the scarcity and value of toned coins. That said, then toned coin collectors would become plastic collectors seeking toned coins that were encapsulated prior to the AT boom.

 

What makes you think we arent already there ? In my opinion, while it might not be widespread, there are more than a few AT coins in top TPG plastic. And it appears as long as PCGS or NGC and/or CAC give a coin its blessing the coin is deemed market acceptable and no one really questions the toning.

 

I think it will require that a verifiable coin doctor toning specialists comes forward with undeniable proof of his/her skill as well as their high rate of success in getting AT coins into PCGS or NGC holders the toned coin market will not be compromised by even the belief of AT coins in PCGS or NGC plastic. I think it would take someone coming forward with evidence of hundreds to thousands of AT coins in plastic. Otherwise we will just live with market acceptability and wonder.

 

I'm not talking about a few AT coins that slipped past the graders of NGC or PCGS. I am talking about a flood of new toned coins that significantly affects the populations because the AT is completely indistinguishable from the NT resulting in almost every coin being deemed MA. The number of people skilled enough to replicate natural toning and get it past the TPGs is very small. If their techniques become widespread, watch out!