Suspected Counterfeit Turns to Jackpot! / Thanks NGC!
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I am ashamed to be a member of this collective. In the face of adversity from people I believed to be genuine, people I gave coins to, let alone giving deals.

 

NGC's name has been soiled by a few bad apples, when I am sure there are some good people as members. People who don't give their utterly false "advise."

 

http://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital%20BNJ/pdfs/1907_BNJ_4_10.pdf

Edited by TheTdotP
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I'm thinking it is too good to be true (as everything always is) but I may be naive in wondering if real silver would be used in making it ( if it truly is not genuine ) I don't know much about counterfeits or the methods used...

 

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That would have been sweet...

 

You know, people who counterfeit and alter coins make me so angry. I have some choice names for them but this is not the time nor the place to convey my feelings.

 

I wonder what the composition of it is, I guess I can test it now.Thanks a lot John, I am hoping someone will come along and say that it is real but I doubt that will happen.

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It's a cast counterfeit with porous surfaces and mushy devices and lettering. This is not my series, but unless the real ones were cast and not die struck, which I doubt, this one is a fake.

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Tom,

 

Is this the coin you are listing on Ebay ?

There is no mention of it being a fake on your ebay listing.

 

Is this another coin that is real ?

 

I would hope that would be the case.

 

Yes, this is the same coin he has listed on eBay.

 

Link

 

I wonder why the OP came back and deleted the original images??

Edited by Deerefan8420
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That would have been sweet...

 

You know, people who counterfeit and alter coins make me so angry. I have some choice names for them but this is not the time nor the place to convey my feelings.

 

I wonder what the composition of it is, I guess I can test it now.Thanks a lot John, I am hoping someone will come along and say that it is real but I doubt that will happen.

 

People who offer counterfeit coins for sale without the slightest mention of the coin being a counterfeit make me pretty hot under the collar too. Especially once they know the coin is fake...

Edited by Deerefan8420
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Maybe he is just selling the picture!!! :grin:

 

 

Well, all he is doing is selling a counterfeit coin. I sent this guy a message on eBay and asked him to pull the auction since he knew it was a counterfeit. I even refered him back to this thread that he started but he has not responded to me yet. Looks like another counterfeit will hit the market tomorrow...

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pretty unbelievable..... Here is a direct quote from his description, I literally copy and pasted... "It is silver in color but I do no believe it to be made with silver. I am selling this as a copper medal to make sure I selling fairly and honestly.” That, and his title calls it very old and rare. I wonder if him calling it a medal/coin is his way of making himself feel better about being shady.... well, Until someone proves it isn't a coin, I guess I could call it a medal.... ^^

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I just remembered having sold him 10 raw mercury dimes for melt when he first arrived around here. The dimes were all toned very pretty but they were from one of those 'Old West' type of frames where they take old common date coins and clean and polish them and then sell them in that manner.

 

I was certain beyond doubt that I had packaged all 10 dimes, however he emailed me and told me he only received 9 dimes.

 

I searched and searched around here and of-course there was not a single one of those dimes to be found, but to give the buyer the benefit of the doubt I refunded him a generous amount for the supposed mistake. Much more than the melt price of a dime.

 

He sent me an email after that and said "thanks for the dimes - I made a killing off of them!"

 

***Edited *** The quote above should have been "Those 9 Mercuries turned some profit for me."

I misquoted him initially.

 

I don't know what he did with them but I was not going to sell him anything else since I was certain I sent him all 10 dimes. If a person is willing to lie over the melt cost of a single dime then selling counterfeits is well within the realm of his capabilities.

 

 

 

Edited by wdrob
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I just remembered having sold him 10 raw mercury dimes for melt when he first arrived around here. The dimes were all toned very pretty but they were from one of those 'Old West' type of frames where they take old common date coins and clean and polish them and then sell them in that manner.

 

I was certain beyond doubt that I had packaged all 10 dimes, however he emailed me and told me he only received 9 dimes.

 

I searched and searched around here and of-course there was not a single one of those dimes to be found, but to give the buyer the benefit of the doubt I refunded him a generous amount for the supposed mistake. Much more than the melt price of a dime.

 

He sent me an email after that and said "thanks for the dimes - I made a killing off of them!"

 

I don't know what he did with them but I was not going to sell him anything else since I was certain I sent him all 10 dimes. If a person is willing to lie over the melt cost of a single dime then selling counterfeits is well within the realm of his capabilities.

 

That sucks Bill. The fact he also sent you an e-mail bragging about his flipping "prowess" just adds to it. Some people!

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Many of you may not have followed this thread much or may have caught the tail-end of things. So I will start from the beginning. There is a lot of information here so please make sure you read thoroughly to avoid too much confusion.

 

The OP posted the images of this coin and asked if it looked like a counterfeit coin(the images are large and there is more text beneath them!).

_57_zps3dd0df69.jpg

untitled_zpsaed43a61.png

 

After receiving several responses from members here, including 3 highly reputable numismatists, the OP stated that he was angered by the people who counterfeit and alter coins. The OP also stated that "he hoped someone would come along and say that it is real but I doubt that will happen."(Remember this.. It becomes relevant later on.)

 

The thread died down for a couple of days and then a new member, John Van Brocklin, posted to the thread and asked if this was the same coin that the OP had listed on eBay. John points out that the OP's eBay listing says nothing about the coin being a fake and asks if the eBay listing is for a coin that is genuine. And that's where the OP's dishonesty starts...

 

Instead of replying to John's post and addressing John's concerns about the piece, the OP came back and deleted his entire first post. I replied to John's post and informed him that it was indeed the same coin the OP had listed on eBay but did not receive any response from John or the OP. After some research of my own, I came to the same conclusion of the other members who replied about the coin being a counterfeit.

 

I reported the item to eBay but the listing was not removed. I then contacted the OP through eBay messages and reminded him that he was made aware of the coin's authenticity and that he should remove the listing. But the OP did not and the coin sold on Feb. 3 for $51. 7 days after my eBay message to the OP, I received this response-

 

Thanks for your concern. Although your interest is appreciated it is not needed. After seeking an opinion from the chatboard I went to a physical numismatist, ANA Certified. Bernie of Bernie coins explained the history of this item and explained the million reasons why it is not a "fake" or anything as such. And if I was trying to do something sneaky, why would I list my eBay user ID on the chatboards then go and sell on another venue? My customers come from the chat room. You look at the people who are making fake coins or altering them, they are everywhere. You need to focus on yourself and not illusions. Of course I would delete that post, I had someone saying an untrue statement. I'm not hiding anything and am not the person you should be coming after. I'm glad I am on your mind but your days would be better spent doing productive things instead of confronting conforming individuals with knowledge only ascertained through tedious computer research.

 

Take Care and thanks again.

 

So, his response was that 3 reputable numismatists were incorrect in their judgment of his coin. As someone who likes accurate information, I decided to do a little more research of my own. I contacted the ANA to inquire about the status of Bernie, of Bernie Coins, to see if he was in fact an ANA member-dealer. And this is the email I received from Sam Gelberd, Numismatic Instructor for the ANA-

 

Hi Justin,

 

Your feedback regarding our website has been noted and will be addressed, and thank you for helping us fix our new website’s bugs. I’m not exactly sure why this issue is happening to you, but hopefully our website developer gets this fixed asap.

 

I’m able to access our dealer directory no problem right now, so I attempted to search for “Bernie’s Coins” in the Tampa, FL area. According to our database, there is no “Bernie’s Coins” business in the United States – at least not an ANA member-dealer by that name. There are several “Bernards” but no “Bernies” that I could track down. If you are able to figure out his last name, I may be able to provide a bit more assistance.

 

I hope that information was somewhat helpful.

 

Regards,

 

Sam Gelberd

 

Numismatic Instructor

American Numismatic Association

818 N Cascade Ave

Colorado Springs, CO 80903-3279

(719) 482-9846

money.org

 

Before I received this message from Sam, I posted a thread on the Numismatic General forum asking if anyone knew of a "Bernie" of "Bernie Coins". Member njf was kind enough to post this Link for me. At this time, this is the only information I have for "Bernie Coins".

 

After receiving this new information about the so-called ANA certified dealer, I sent this message to the OP through eBay messages-

 

Thomas,

 

I have conducted my own "tedious computer research" as well. I have contacted the ANA and there is no record of a "Bernie" of "Bernie Coins" in the ANA dealer directory for the United States. Could you please provide his last name or some detailed information about "Bernie" of "Bernie Coins" please?

 

In regards to your post on the NGC Chat Boards, you are saying that a numismatic author, a professional numismatic photographer, and a retired coin dealer were wrong and saying untrue things about your cast counterfeit? I find that hard to believe. You did not delete your original post until after the poster "John Van Brocklin" asked if this was the same coin you had listed on eBay. Seeing how you were asking about a cast counterfeit's authenticity and were told that the coin was a fake, I could see where John's question was relevant in that he did not want to bid on or purchase a cast counterfeit coin. It was only after he asked his question that you deleted the images and all information relevant in your original post about the coin. Even you were suspect of it's authenticity in the original post. To me, that is suspect behavior and it leads me to believe that you knew what you were doing was wrong.

 

Selling counterfeit coins is just as bad as creating them. You are just as responsible for that coin being on the market as the person who created that fake.

 

A couple of days go by and I receive this message in response from the OP through eBay messages-

 

I certainly can find out more of Bernies Coins. He has a card with the number on it I know that. I don't know what you are trying to say or do but I am a busy person and I do not have time for any "super sleuths." I assure you I did nothing wrong or unethical. I appreciate your concern for this great hobby but this item in question does not even fall under the category of "coin" collecting. The item is a medal by legal definition. The two are closely related but Medals do not have the intricacies that coins do, money vs memorabilia the rules are so much different. Thats how we can buy "1 oz silver Morgan Dollars" that were minted this year. Although thought to be an imitation coin by those at NGC. Only it was proven, to me, to be a medal - so coin experts would not be the people you would generally ask for medal information, so the wrong opinion given by the few NGC Members was nice but not valid.

 

This is not a matter of ethics or law. I have not sold a counterfeit anything or fake anything either, you may not think so but I know so. The technicalities and intricacies of just one suspect coin are nothing short of a myriad to put it mildly.

 

I appreciate your concern and I hope that you have a great day. Take Care.

 

- pullencapital

 

The OP is now trying to justify his cast counterfeit as being a "Medal" and that the "coin experts" were wrong. So I contacted the 3 reputable numismatists who replied to the OP's thread and sent them all the same message text. These are the 3 responses that I received-

 

1st Response-

It is a coin, a Crown of 5 Shillings, not 20 Shillings as listed. It can be found as item 3 of Plate 1 here:

 

http://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital%20BNJ/pdfs/1907_BNJ_4_10.pdf

 

So the coin is not a "Medal" as claimed by the OP.

 

2nd Response-

It's not a real coin. Calling it a medal because it's round and metal is a cop-out. It's a fake coin.

 

I would copy the original pictures from eBay and paste them into the thread, since they'll disappear from there, too.

 

Once again, the coin is a fake and the OP is trying to legitimize the counterfeit by calling it a "Medal".

 

3rd Response-

The piece bears a resemblance to a couple of James I crowns, Spink numbers 2652 and 2665. It is a copy of a coin, not a medal. It does not match either of those Spink numbers exactly, but it is close enough to be deceptive from the design aspect.

 

Sometimes medals are cast and not struck. Most of the time cast medals are chastened (smoothed out) enough so that they are attractive and don't give off a cast appearance. This piece does not look to have struck to me because of the surfaces, and I would say that it was probably a decently made counterfeit. In those days a crown was equal to several days labor, and it was worth a counterfeiter's while to copy them.

 

Lastly, the coin is a COUNTERFEIT!

 

To me, knowingly selling a counterfeit coin is just as bad a creating the counterfeit itself. I don't know the OP's motives or if greed was a driving force in the OP not wanting to believe his coin was a counterfeit. Plus, if the OP's story is true about the advice he received about the counterfeit being a genuine piece, he should strongly consider finding a more knowledgeable source for his information. However, given the OP's actions by deleting his entire first post and the responses I received from his eBay messages, I found his behavior to be dishonest and reprehensible.

 

And now because of all of this another counterfeit coin has hit the market and there will be another disappointed buyer, once the buyer finds out the coin is a fake. Will this be the coin that discourages that buyer from giving up collecting? I wonder how many others have given up on our great hobby from being duped by a dishonest seller? We may never know....

Edited by Deerefan8420
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I'm thinking it is too good to be true (as everything always is) but I may be naive in wondering if real silver would be used in making it ( if it truly is not genuine ) I don't know much about counterfeits or the methods used...

 

That would have been sweet...

 

You know, people who counterfeit and alter coins make me so angry. I have some choice names for them but this is not the time nor the place to convey my feelings.

 

I wonder what the composition of it is, I guess I can test it now.Thanks a lot John, I am hoping someone will come along and say that it is real but I doubt that will happen.

 

For posterity; unedited.

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Justin, you and I have been around here for just a short amount of time (we seem to have registered only 10 days apart) and are "newbs" for the most part. Even in this short amount of time I do not think I can count on both hands (and possibly one of my feet) how many have came and gone in such a manner as Thomas Pullen.

 

For those veterans that have been around here so long they need to be dusted off periodically, they more than likely gave up counting many moons ago.

 

Every endeavor in life seems to have its census of crooks, cons, and those that would lie about anything to make $1.00 ..... It is a damn shame.

 

Good detective work btw. ;)

 

 

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Don't expect help from the ANA regarding counterfeiters or those who sell fakes.

 

That stinks. I heard through the grapevine that the ANA doesn't like to do much of anything in response to complaints involving matters like these.

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Don't expect help from the ANA regarding counterfeiters or those who sell fakes.

 

That stinks. I heard through the grapevine that the ANA doesn't like to do much of anything in response to complaints involving matters like these.

 

The ANA takes complaints against ANA members very seriously. Some members have been expelled by the ANA board as the result of such complaints.

 

Perhaps what you heard "through the grapevine" came from a disgruntled (baseless) complainant ?

 

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Don't expect help from the ANA regarding counterfeiters or those who sell fakes.

 

That stinks. I heard through the grapevine that the ANA doesn't like to do much of anything in response to complaints involving matters like these.

 

The ANA takes complaints against ANA members very seriously. Some members have been expelled by the ANA board as the result of such complaints.

 

Perhaps what you heard "through the grapevine" came from a disgruntled (baseless) complainant ?

 

The ANA seems to have its own problems to worry with and is too busy to police its members. When presented with a genuine complaint, I don't think the ANA has the resources or time to conduct any sort of inquiry when it is already entangled in a massive lawsuit. That goes for complaints of this nature or any other for that matter.

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http://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital%20BNJ/pdfs/1907_BNJ_4_10.pdf

 

. Thought members of NGC were better than that especially you. Not only were your opinions wrong but you attacked a guy who told the truth and didn't even get the benefit of the doubt.

 

The NGC and its members should be ashamed.

 

 

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Justin, you and I have been around here for just a short amount of time (we seem to have registered only 10 days apart) and are "newbs" for the most part. Even in this short amount of time I do not think I can count on both hands (and possibly one of my feet) how many have came and gone in such a manner as Thomas Pullen.

 

For those veterans that have been around here so long they need to be dusted off periodically, they more than likely gave up counting many moons ago.

 

Every endeavor in life seems to have its census of crooks, cons, and those that would lie about anything to make $1.00 ..... It is a damn shame.

 

Good detective work btw. ;)

 

 

My name will be one you won't forget, you shouldn't be so envious of someone you don't know. You know nothing about me and your and your cohorts should feel ashamed for not only being wrong but attacking someone for it.

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I just remembered having sold him 10 raw mercury dimes for melt when he first arrived around here. The dimes were all toned very pretty but they were from one of those 'Old West' type of frames where they take old common date coins and clean and polish them and then sell them in that manner.

 

I was certain beyond doubt that I had packaged all 10 dimes, however he emailed me and told me he only received 9 dimes.

 

I searched and searched around here and of-course there was not a single one of those dimes to be found, but to give the buyer the benefit of the doubt I refunded him a generous amount for the supposed mistake. Much more than the melt price of a dime.

 

He sent me an email after that and said "thanks for the dimes - I made a killing off of them!"

 

I don't know what he did with them but I was not going to sell him anything else since I was certain I sent him all 10 dimes. If a person is willing to lie over the melt cost of a single dime then selling counterfeits is well within the realm of his capabilities.

 

That sucks Bill. The fact he also sent you an e-mail bragging about his flipping "prowess" just adds to it. Some people!

 

Yes, he shorted me a Dime. So desperate for his 10$ he forgot to put in all ten. Also he forgot to mention his reply about how they were "beautiful toners just a shame that they weren't in better shape.". I didn't ask for money back, if you remember I said that I wanted to let you know that there were only 9 as they were only 9. I know that as well as God and your track record isn't exactly valid.I thought maybe you had someone else packing and maybe they could have been older and not realized or a young person skimming of you.

 

And Finally I was saying thank you for a good deal of 9 dimes for $10 and letting you know they went to good use. If you were a good person you would be happy for another person making money but instead you hold hatred for those that are doing better than you.

 

I wouldn't buy from you again anyway. Not only can you not count but I am not supporting a guy devoting his life to trolling coin sites. I am sorry you are not me and I am sorry you wish you were. You can be happy for me or you can continue speaking ill and lying, but just know I'll be in the sun, at the beach, just thinking of ways to spend money I have amassed being an honest salesman. Ill be just fine but thanks for thinking of me guys :)

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