When you see expensive coins for sale, in say, Coin World..

[the_Thing ®]

and they aren't in a slab, do you wonder why? I sure as hell do. There is one dealer who constantly has 1795 dollars, and other rare items with prices reaching up to $15,000 or more. Would you spend that kind of $$$ without it being slabbed by PCGS or NGC, AND, if you were the seller, don't you think it would be beneficial to have it slabbed? It makes me think he is either over grading them, or they have a problem and have been bagged before. The dealer is The Coin Depot in Greenville, SC.

[gmarguli]

It depends on the dealer. There are some dealers out there that hate slabs, but the dealers are trustworthy. There are others that hate slabs because they can't screw the buyer.

 

For the most part, if a $15K coin isn't in a slab, I'd suspect that there is a reason for that. And if I were interested in the coin, I'd either get an iron clad return guarantee or would be very careful buying it.

[the_Thing ®]

[EZ_E]

and they aren't in a slab, do you wonder why? I sure as hell do. There is one dealer who constantly has 1795 dollars, and other rare items with prices reaching up to $15,000 or more. Would you spend that kind of $$$ without it being slabbed by PCGS or NGC, AND, if you were the seller, don't you think it would be beneficial to have it slabbed? It makes me think he is either over grading them, or they have a problem and have been bagged before. The dealer is The Coin Depot in Greenville, SC.

 

Yep, I agree with your conclusions, especially considering the dealer mentioned. They, like Coast to Coast etc., sell slider and problem coins but over 96% of their consumers eat it up without returns. If an original, eye-appealing coin came their way then the customer would complain and whine and send it back. (true story that is oft repeated). So, these dealers can only survive by filling a nich which is created by newbies and the uninformed.

 

So, what is the best way to protect oneself from such pirates? An education (which are sometimes learned the hardway).

 

This is a very cutthroat hobby with very little integrity manifested by most dealers/sellers. So, if one wants to survive and not get burned then they had better buy the book first or, like Melanie, ask lots of questions. She probably feels like a nuisance at times for asking so many but I'll betcha that she has most everyone's respect on these boards because she is actively seeking an education in numismatics and she does exhibit a sincere passion for this hobby.

 

And, as always, Buyer Beware!

[Newmismatist]

This is a very cutthroat hobby with very little integrity manifested by most dealers/sellers.

 

From personal experience, I disagree. But maybe it's because for many years I have made a concerted effort to find fair and honest dealers to purchase coins from. I think that in every endeavor there are those that have poor ethics and sharp practices, but I think they are in the MINORITY. One always has to be careful in what you buy and knowing the dealer whom you choose to buy coins from is important - but more important is acquiring a good working knowledge of coins and good sources to obtain advise and help in those areas that you are not knowledgeable in.

 

A Purchaser has an obligation to educate himself (or herself) before spending his hard earned money - to do otherwise will result in an expensive and, often surprising (maybe even shocking) learning process.

[EZ_E]

A Purchaser has an obligation to educate himself (or herself) before spending his hard earned money - to do otherwise will result in an expensive and, often surprising (maybe even shocking) learning process.

 

Why? Because of the relatively high number of dishonest individuals in the hobby. Most of 'em advertise in the numismatic publications, too which, in a sense, condones their unethical standards.

 

I have, however, met some incredibly "stand-up" individuals in the hobby, both dealers and collectors.

 

So, as mentioned, Buyer Beware!

[Newmismatist]

relatively high number of dishonest individuals in the hobby

 

I would question whether that statement is based on fact or opinion. To be based on fact you'd have to quantify ALL the those who are dealers in coins, determine which ones were "dishonest" and divide that number by the total - If you haven't performed that quantification, than what you have stated is opinion. By way of example: If you ask a prison warden to give you his view as to how "honest" he considers most people he may give you a very high opinion of dishonesty as to the average person. If you ask the director of the Red Cross, or your local pastor, you may get a very different answer. It all depends on what "pool" your draw from to determine the quality of the water.

[EZ_E]

relatively high number of dishonest individuals in the hobby

 

I would question whether that statement is based on fact or opinion. To be based on fact you'd have to quantify ALL the those who are dealers in coins, determine which ones were "dishonest" and divide that number by the total - If you haven't performed that quantification, than what you have stated is opinion. By way of example: If you ask a prison warden to give you his view as to how "honest" he considers most people he may give you a very high opinion of dishonesty as to the average person. If you ask the director of the Red Cross, or your local pastor, you may get a very different answer. It all depends on what "pool" your draw from to determine the quality of the water.

 

very rational statement!

 

So, in my experience, until I got an education, I was jacked regularly by the Numismatic News advertisers. I bought many overpriced and overgraded coins which were seriously misrepresented. This has not happen in a long while, though, since I'm not as naive and gullible as when I re-entered the hobby.

 

So, based upon my experience and that of many others with which I have spoken, MOST coin dealers are unscrupulous and dishonest.

[EZ_E]

 

 

 

Techno Mike posted the following:

 

 

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Let me give you a simple collector's point-of-view by relating a sale effort I went through about three months ago...

 

I had 7 NGC certified $2.5 dollar Indians to sell. They were an '08 in AU50, an '09 in MS61, an '11 in AU58, a '12 in MS61, a '13 in AU53, a '14 in MS62, and a '14-D in MS61. No color problems or spots. I presented these to three dealers at a show in Arkansas only to be offered amounts between $1100 to $1250. These were all dealers in certified material. Well, anyone that has the least knowledge of the series knows that the '14-D is the second most valuable coin after the '11-D...especially in MS62 and up. I'm not the confrontational type in this area, so I thanked each dealer for their time and left. I ultimately offered the coins the David Lawrence Rare Coins who offered, and I accepted, $2400.

 

Two reasons came to mind for these actions. First, each of the show dealers was trying to low ball me for the quick profit. The second, and hopefully most likely, was that they had no market for the coins, whereas DLRC did.

 

The moral - If you are not interested please don't insult with a low ball offer. If you are then bring an offer that is a reasonable level below market. Most sellers know you are in business and deserve to make a profit on the transaction.

 

As an aside, it was neat to see the coins listed on the DLRC site...and sell for fair margins above what I know was the buy price. Be fair and honest with people...you will gain a loyal following.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

So, lets get mo' scientific and take a poll:

[Newmismatist]

very rational statement!

 

So, in my experience, until I got an education, I was jacked regularly by the Numismatic News advertisers. I bought many overpriced and overgraded coins which were seriously misrepresented. This has not happen in a long while, though, since I'm not as naive and gullible as when I re-entered the hobby.

 

So, based upon my experience and that of many others with which I have spoken, MOST coin dealers are unscrupulous and dishonest.

 

THe "pool" you were drawing from was those that sell to uninformed persons who are looking for bargains - you obviously were not going to coin shows, looking at numerous coins and and making your own visual determination as to which ones were accurately graded and fairly priced - there are few "bargains" in coin collecting - buying sight unseen from unknown dealers is certainly the way to buy some over-priced and over-graded coins - If you needed a heart surgeon would you flip to the yellow pages and pick the guy with the biggest ad? There are quite a few people who have picked a "plastic surgeon" in that manner and been sorely disappointed - Doing one's homework BEFORE sending that check for that "bargain" will save you (and others) a lot of grief, and a lot of money. - In the end it really is up to the consumer to learn as much as he can before "plunging into the water" - On that note - there have been hundreds of people very seriously injured because they "dove" into the water BEFORE they checked it's depth. Sad, but true.

 

For example, at the beginning of this thread there's this comment:

There is one dealer who constantly has 1795 dollars, and other rare items with prices reaching up to $15,000 or more.

 

I don't know who the dealer is, nor am I an expert in 1795 dollars, but you better believe this - If I'm going to spend 15K on a 1795 dollar, I'm going to make a pretty concerted effort to learn everything I can about both the value and the grading of 1795 dollars AND I am going to LOOK at that coin and ask the opinions of others who are far more knowledgeable than me about that coin and what it's worth - I might be willing to spend $10 (or maybe even $100) on a coin as a learning experience, but not $15K to get an education. When I was 7 years old (probably around 1952 or so) a dealer sold me a whizzed buffalo nickel - maybe it seemed a bargain, but it was not. But it taught me a lesson that I've never forgotten - make sure you know what you're doing before you spend your money - I don't know what I paid for that whizzed nickel - but the lesson it taught me has saved me thousands of dollars over the years - it also taught me to deal with reputable people and watch out for "bargains" - The only person who was Santa Claus in my family was my Dad. That said, I've had very positive experiences with dealers pretty much ever since - maybe it's because I had learned a valuble lesson. But, in ,my experience, there are far more honest dealers than dishonest dealers - maybe you just have draw from a different source for your coins. JMHO

 

Edited to add: Victor I took your poll - but you need to add at least 1 more question otherwise your results will be quite skewed: - "Have you ever dealt with an Honest dealer?" another question might be: "In your experience have you encountered more honest dealers than dishonest dealers?" - or something like that - If you want to do a "scientific" poll with some meaning you can't limit the question so that the answers you get are those that you have predetermined. There was a poll taken in the 30's when FDR was running for re-election for President ( I think for his 2nd term) - The conclusion was that Wendel Wilke would over-whelming win. Course they poll was conducted by telephone and the only people who could afford telephones at that time were over-whelming . So when you conduct your poll, make sure you ask the right questons and the right persons before you extrapolate your results to a conclusion.

[goose3]

I haven't subscribed to CW for a few years now or any mag for that matter. I have found that the coin rags are pretty much useless, old, outdated info that can be found here or across the street when it happens......like FOX'S Breaking news sort of.

 

I do recall seeing ads though and the coins in the grades that they are advertised in conjunction with the seemingly "cheap" prices sure are alluring and I would expect that many people have been "had" by such tactics and unfortunately I would guess a great majority of them don't even know it.

 

Fortunately I'm not one of them.

[EZ_E]

Newmismatist,

 

I really enjoyed reading your posts. They are very logical and rational and are not skewed with unrational bias. Thanks for your input. You have slightly influenced me into reevaluating my position somewhat.

 

I intended to have a non-skewed poll but my daughter called me in the middle of composing the polls. I tried to talk and post at the same time and that diverted the neurons needed to post an intelligent poll.

 

p.s. I know that I spelled the word "continually" wrong but it wouldn't let me edit the poll in order to change it.

 

So, here is the new and improved, non-skewed poll:

 

 

 

.

[Techno_mike-migration]

This is a great thread!

 

There needs to be more discussion of this type...very informative. I have been in this hobby for a total of 20 years, but I never stop learning. Thanks for all the great info!

 

There are some dealers out there that hate slabs, but the dealers are trustworthy.

 

On topic though, I have to agree with Greg. I have dealt with far more honest dealers who just don't believe that the Certification Professionals are more experienced and competent than they. Remember this is a rather small group of people who did not invent coin grading, only refined the delivery process, added a bit of consistency, and enabled some degree of transparency.

[SilverDollarMan]

U answered ur own question, why.....L@@k Out!

[michael]

well for me in my own limited experience the past 40 years as a crazy person interested in coins

 

i 110% totally agree with victor

 

and i do totally agree 110% with newnumismatist that you need to first educate yourself before you start to buy coins

 

based on my experiences in the coin game

 

 

michael

[Newmismatist]

Newmismatist,

 

I really enjoyed reading your posts. They are very logical and rational and are not skewed with unrational bias. Thanks for your input. You have slightly influenced me into reevaluating my position somewhat.

 

Victor - Thanks for the compliment - I'm not really trying to "influence" you - it's just my 55 years of collecting indicated a different experience for me - On the various boards that I've participating in I see a lot of "dealer bashing" which honestly perplexes me - after a couple of years here's my observations and thoughts:

 

1. W/O dealers, I would not be able to obtain many of the really neat coins that I now own and have owned in the past - So I view them as my "freinds" and the best source of my obtianing neat coins.

 

2. Many collectors seem to view dealers as "the enemy" - and "crow" about cherry-picking something from a dealer (sort of like bragging about taking advantage of someone) and complain about how rotten dealers are if they think a dealer paid them less than full retail for some very common and ordinary coins - an amazing double standard that I see "published" on the various boards all the time.

 

3. Those who complain the most or the loudest seem to be the ones who are unwilling to spend time LEARNING about coins, grading and their values - They tend to "price or value buy" and then are shocked to learn that their "below average for the grade" coin is not the most sought after coin when they go to sell.

 

4. A large number of collectors seem to think that they are entitled to buy at wholsale and sell at retail, but Coin Dealers should not be entitlled to a fair profit so they can feed their families and pay their expenses. But they have no compunctions about paying a 3 to 10 time mark up in a jewlery store for something for themselves or their wives or girlfriends - Anyone here ever try and get even close to their money back for a piece of expensive jewlery?

 

5. That's not to say that there aren't sharp practices by coin dealers - but in most instances - knowledge and Not succumbing to that "bargain that's too good to be true" will protect most collectors from being unfairly dealt with by an unscrupulous coin dealer.

 

6. This is one of the few hobbies that, if you buy carefully - do your homework, learn to grade coins and understand which coins in a series are scarce, and which are (for example) condition rarities, you can both enjoy yourself AND make money in the long run. But if you spend foolishly on things that you know nothing about, completely rely on the TPGS to tell you which are the "good" coins and don't bother to even look at the coin (just the paper insert) you'll be sorely disappointed when you dispose of your collection of plastic with pieces of paper telling you what you THINK you own. Just like life - what you get out of your collecting interests is directly proportional to what he put into it - and that does not refer to the money, but to the time and effort that you put into it.

 

My comments are not intended to change anybody's mind - I learned long ago that that only happens when people stop shouting and insted use a some thought and little common sense. What I have learned is that absolute pronouncements ( e.g. all coin dealers are dishonest) are seldom accurate.

[Techno_mike-migration]

Newmismatist,

 

W/O dealers, I would not be able to obtain many of the really neat coins that I now own and have owned in the past - So I view them as my "freinds" and the best source of my obtianing neat coins.

 

 

The best of your many good points in your last post. There are a number of great dealers that I hope to meet some day soon...most I only "know" though e-mails and telephone conversations. I have a problem with complaining about dealers even if I receive coins that are less than my expectations...I just return the item.

 

Grading is 40% science and 60% art to me so there will be differences of opinion. This is not cause to pooh-pooh the whole dealer community.

[Morgannut]

One more question that IS related to the original topic of ads:

 

Of the dealers with ads larger than 1/3 page in Coin World selling raw coins,

 

Are more dealers than not selling overgraded or ungradable problem coins?

 

I suggest everyone knows the answer!!!!

[Newmismatist]

One more question that IS related to the original topic of ads:

 

Of the dealers with ads larger than 1/3 page in Coin World selling raw coins,

 

Are more dealers than not selling overgraded or ungradable problem coins?

 

I suggest everyone knows the answer!!!!

 

I don't subscribe to Coin World, but I usually pick up a copy at coin shows - there is no real accurate answer to that question, but in perusing a copy that I got at the Baltimore coin show in early December revels that very few dealers sell only raw coins, and many that do, sell modern bullion and US Government Mint and Proof sets. There is (and has been as long as I can remember) a class of dealers who make a living buying XF and selling AU (or AU and selling Unc). There are no Santa Clauses in the coin industry and learning how to grade should be a Collectors FIRST priority. As far as large ads in Coin World, I would not feel particularly comfortable buying from someone who ONLY sold raw coins UNLESS there was an iron clad return privilege (and the same is true with regard to coins sold on ebay).

 

But to make the determination that you ask without it being pure speculation would require buying a fairly large sample of coins and then submitting them to the grading services that you deem reputable and then quantifying the results. As far as everyone "knowing the Answer", I think it would be less "knowledge" and more "guess" - How can anyone "know" the quality of what someone is selling if they haven't bought from them? Perhaps a better question would be: How many have purchased raw coins from XX or YY and were the coins you received properly graded? JMHO

[James_OldeTowne]

Some coins just can't get into slabs, and that's just a fact of life. This past month, I bought and sold a $10,000 coin that cannot get encapsulated because it has been whizzed. Now, of course ANACS would encapsulate it, but I know what would happen, it would end up as "AU details, whizzed, net VF". NCS would also slab it, with no net grade, but I find that many buyers do not trust their slabs because there's no indication as to the severity of the mentioned problem.

 

Needless to say, I sold my coin with a full disclosure as to it's grade and problems, but guess what? The buyer wants it for his Dansco album, so a slab wouldn't be very high on his priority list anyhow. But the thing is, he is now able to show off his Dansco album complete, including the 1916.

 

How many people can do THAT?

 

This same customer also has a flowing hair dollar worth $10,000 that has been repaired, and again, it's in his Dansco type set.

 

I consider and value this type of customer as a true coin collector.

 

James

[Oldtrader3]

Back in "real life", before I retired, I used to travel on business a great deal. One of the amusements I had during my free time was to visit shops of several large dealers that advertized in Coin World and the other retail mags. Visiting Coast-to-Coast, Littleton and some of the others who shall remain nameless, was really an education. Most of these dealer's advertized coins that I asked to see and coins on display were, IMHO, overgraded.

 

Victor, I took your poll and answered that most dealers I have met over the years were honest. However, there are some really big, hungry sharks in this hobby and I do not think that I would ever buy a non-TPG $15,000 coin from a dealer that I did not know and trust implicitly.

[Julian]

I do not submit coins to the services for their opinions.

 

Ron is an experienced collector and as a suggestion to all collectors, I suggest that knowledge is KING!

 

Buy coins that fit into the definition of the collection.

 

Buy only coins that you understand the value of. If you cannot see the difference between two coins, there is simply no reason to purchase the more expensive one. It can be a valuable lesson to learn why the one coin is more expensive.

 

If you do not like your purchase, most dealers will accept a return within 14 days.

 

Don't get too hung up on price. Service has a value, as well.

 

Don't purchase any coin just because of the sales pitch. Buy it because it makes sense to you, as part of your collection.

 

Collectors have realized the greatest capital returns and have further realized enormous enjoyment, which has no tax consequences.

 

Ask for counsel.

 

Don't write off any coin because it is raw, or in a lesser service's holder.

 

Keep looking at coins and asking questions.

[michael]

Buy only coins that you understand the value of. If you cannot see the difference between two coins, there is simply no reason to purchase the more expensive one. It can be a valuable lesson to learn why the one coin is more expensive.

 

If you do not like your purchase, most dealers will accept a return within 14 days.

 

Don't get too hung up on price. Service has a value, as well.

 

 

 

Collectors have realized the greatest capital returns and have further realized enormous enjoyment, which has no tax consequences.

 

Ask for counsel.

 

Don't write off any coin because it is raw, or in a lesser service's holder.

 

 

great words of wisdom

[Oldtrader3]

Raw coins are a still a [#@$%!!!] shoot, even from major dealers! I have a 1913-S Barber dime that I bought a few years ago. The dime was graded "MS63" (raw) from a major collection, sold in a major auction, by a major, very reputable dealer.

 

I was ill at the time and put the coin away for several months after purchase, without examining it under magnification. I eventually sent it to NGC and it was promptly BB'ed for "Improper Cleaning". The cleaning was expertly done and very difficult to detect without magnification. It was too late to go back on the dealer. This is a scarce date dime that was an expensive lesson.

 

The lesson learned is: shame on me for not keeping the dealer honest and closely examining the coin the day I got it. Double shame on me, because the same major dealer had sold me another cleaned dime through another major auction, years before slabbing became prevalent. I sold the earlier coin for pennies on the dollar. The 1913-S, I suppose that I will die with.

 

IMHO, you can not buy any raw coin from anyone without close inspection.

[EZ_E]

Some coins just can't get into slabs, and that's just a fact of life. This past month, I bought and sold a $10,000 coin that cannot get encapsulated because it has been whizzed. Now, of course ANACS would encapsulate it, but I know what would happen, it would end up as "AU details, whizzed, net VF". NCS would also slab it, with no net grade, but I find that many buyers do not trust their slabs because there's no indication as to the severity of the mentioned problem.

 

Needless to say, I sold my coin with a full disclosure as to it's grade and problems, but guess what? The buyer wants it for his Dansco album, so a slab wouldn't be very high on his priority list anyhow. But the thing is, he is now able to show off his Dansco album complete, including the 1916.

 

How many people can do THAT?

 

This same customer also has a flowing hair dollar worth $10,000 that has been repaired, and again, it's in his Dansco type set.

 

I consider and value this type of customer as a true coin collector.

 

James

 

James,

I understand the mentality but I would still shy away from a whizzed coin. I am also a type collector using the Dansco type album of 1800-present as a basis for my collection. I recently bought an 1839 Bust half with reeded edges for a great price. It was a very nice coin that had previously been dipped and had minimal hairlines on it. It is an AU coin that, for $200, is a great space filler which I may or may not upgrade some day.

 

Question about your customer's Dansco type album: you mentioned that he needed a flowing hair half for his album. The only type album produced by Dansco that I know of does not include this type in its album. Is there another type of album out there which has the 1700 issues produced by Dansco?

 

The lesson learned is: shame on me for not keeping the dealer honest and closely examining the coin the day I got it. Double shame on me, because the same major dealer had sold me another cleaned dime through another major auction, years before slabbing became prevalent. I sold the earlier coin for pennies on the dollar. The 1913-S, I suppose that I will die with.

 

Great caveat, Charlie!

 

Newmismatist,

You are correct when you assert that knowledge is the key to successful numismatics! But, I infer from your statements that without knowledge then the collector is free game to the sharks out there. Which, in turn, implies that there are many dishonest individuals who will prey on the naive and unknowledgable.

 

I bought an uncirculated $2.5 gold Indian from Coast to Coast and had PCGS grade it. It came back AU 58. Not to mention all of the "choice BU" Walkers that were hairlined sliders that I never had graded. I will still buy modern silver dollar commems from them but never any classic coins. I had also bought a $20 St.Gaudins from "The Coin Vault" in 1999 for $500. It was supposed to have been uncirculated but PCGS bodybagged it for improper cleaning. It had a nice eraser mark on the reverse which I never even spotted until after I took the ANA coin grading seminar. These seminars are, IMO, invaluable to the new collector. I gained the foundation of grading skills which have grown tremendously since.

 

However, the selling of sub-par coins is the staple of the newbie diet which keeps many big-time dealers in business. Afterall, if every collector just wanted choice, top of the line coins then there would none available. For instance, I just purchased a beautiful PR 66 RB two-cent piece with a population of but five. If all type collectors were after such quality then its price would have been 50-100 times more than I paid.

[michael]

 

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Some coins just can't get into slabs, and that's just a fact of life. This past month, I bought and sold a $10,000 coin that cannot get encapsulated because it has been whizzed. Now, of course ANACS would encapsulate it, but I know what would happen, it would end up as "AU details, whizzed, net VF". NCS would also slab it, with no net grade, but I find that many buyers do not trust their slabs because there's no indication as to the severity of the mentioned problem.

 

Needless to say, I sold my coin with a full disclosure as to it's grade and problems, but guess what? The buyer wants it for his Dansco album, so a slab wouldn't be very high on his priority list anyhow. But the thing is, he is now able to show off his Dansco album complete, including the 1916.

 

How many people can do THAT?

 

This same customer also has a flowing hair dollar worth $10,000 that has been repaired, and again, it's in his Dansco type set.

 

I consider and value this type of customer as a true coin collector.

 

James

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

James,

I understand the mentality but I would still shy away from a whizzed coin. I am also a type collector using the Dansco type album of 1800-present as a basis for my collection. I recently bought an 1839 Bust half with reeded edges for a great price. It was a very nice coin that had previously been dipped and had minimal hairlines on it. It is an AU coin that, for $200, is a great space filler which I may or may not upgrade some day.

 

Question about your customer's Dansco type album: you mentioned that he needed a flowing hair half for his album. The only type album produced by Dansco that I know of does not include this type in its album. Is there another type of album out there which has the 1700 issues produced by Dansco?

 

 

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The lesson learned is: shame on me for not keeping the dealer honest and closely examining the coin the day I got it. Double shame on me, because the same major dealer had sold me another cleaned dime through another major auction, years before slabbing became prevalent. I sold the earlier coin for pennies on the dollar. The 1913-S, I suppose that I will die with.

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Great caveat, Charlie!

 

Newmismatist,

You are correct when you assert that knowledge is the key to successful numismatics! But, I infer from your statements that without knowledge then the collector is free game to the sharks out there. Which, in turn, implies that there are many dishonest individuals who will prey on the naive and unknowledgable.

 

I bought an uncirculated $2.5 gold Indian from Coast to Coast and had PCGS grade it. It came back AU 58. Not to mention all of the "choice BU" Walkers that were hairlined sliders that I never had graded. I will still buy modern silver dollar commems from them but never any classic coins. I had also bought a $20 St.Gaudins from "The Coin Vault" in 1999 for $500. It was supposed to have been uncirculated but PCGS bodybagged it for improper cleaning. It had a nice eraser mark on the reverse which I never even spotted until after I took the ANA coin grading seminar. These seminars are, IMO, invaluable to the new collector. I gained the foundation of grading skills which have grown tremendously since.

 

However, the selling of sub-par coins is the staple of the newbie diet which keeps many big-time dealers in business. Afterall, if every collector just wanted choice, top of the line coins then there would none available. For instance, I just purchase a beautiful PR 66 RB two-cent piece with a population of but five. If all type collectors were after such quality then its price would have been 50-100 times more than I paid.

 

--------------------

The last of the human freedoms is to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances. Viktor E. Franki

 

 

 

 

EZ_E/Victor/Mr. Yuk: lover of prehistoric, megabeast-sized canines. EVP

 

 

[Newmismatist]

Newmismatist,

You are correct when you assert that knowledge is the key to successful numismatics! But, I infer from your statements that without knowledge then the collector is free game to the sharks out there. Which, in turn, implies that there are many dishonest individuals who will prey on the naive and unknowledgable.

 

Victor - you are inferring and implying far too much from what I have said. What I AM saying is that it is incumbant on the buyer to arm himself with knowledge BEFORE he consumates a transaction. It's the same reason why a pilot goes thru an extensive checklist BEFORE starting up the plane and taxiing down the runway - the time to find out that they forgot to re-fuel the gas tank is NOT at 10,000 feet with no airport in sight even IF failing to re-fuel that tank only happens 1 time in a million. But according to your analysis, every time a pilot performs his check list, you would "infer" that he does so because those who service his plane are incompetent and you would imply that they want him to crash and burn or they are dishonest and intend to harm him. I don't think you can infer or imply that any more than you can infer and imply what I said means what you WANT it to mean. What I mean is pretty simple: Be prudent in what you do in life, whether it's looking both ways before you cross a street, or how you choose to spend your money. I would certainly agree that there are "dishonest individuals" in this world - whether they are "many" or "few" is a whole different issue - it prudent to guard yourself against those"dishonest individuals" in the same way that you take your keys and lock your car: Most people are honest and won't steal your car, buy why tempt fate?

 

I bought an uncirculated $2.5 gold Indian from Coast to Coast and had PCGS grade it. It came back AU 58. Not to mention all of the "choice BU" Walkers that were hairlined sliders that I never had graded. I will still buy modern silver dollar commems from them but never any classic coins.

 

Victor - I have a saying that I tell my clients: "The tragedy in life is not that you make a mistake, the tragedy is when you don't LEARN from your mistake." That said, I would only ask: Why would you continue to do business with someone who sells you over-graded coins? Are you trying to keep them in business so that they can keep doing the same to others Or are you simplying buying by "price" figuring eventually you'll get that 1 in a million bargain?

 

I had also bought a $20 St.Gaudins from "The Coin Vault" in 1999 for $500. It was supposed to have been uncirculated but PCGS bodybagged it for improper cleaning. It had a nice eraser mark on the reverse which I never even spotted until after I took the ANA coin grading seminar. These seminars are, IMO, invaluable to the new collector. I gained the foundation of grading skills which have grown tremendously since.

Hmmm - sounds like you're finally learning.

 

However, the selling of sub-par coins is the staple of the newbie diet which keeps many big-time dealers in business.

 

If a "Newbie" takes the time to educate himself BEFORE buying expensive coins, those "big time dealers" will starve. JMHO

[EZ_E]

Newmismatist,

 

I love your posts! Keep 'em comin' and remind me not to argue semantics.