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1879-S, 1880-S, 1881-S Morgan Dollars (Toned)

Started by Eric Hazen,

43 posts in this topic

Nutmeg Coin

Nutmeg Coin

Posted
Posted

I'm just curious how these could be naturally toned? Why are only Morgan dollars toned like that and hardly any of the other silver coins? What type of holder would react with the silver to produce bright iridescent colors like this? How rigorous are the grading services in separating out the AT coins from those which genuinely acquired toning over a long period of time?

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ron_c

ron_c

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"The Morgan Silver Dollar, produced from 1878 until 1904 and again in 1921 were in heavy supply and many more were struck than were required for circulation. Therefore, many of the freshly struck examples were stored at the US Treasury in canvas bags until they were eventually released or sold to the public. These coins sat in canvas bags for nearly a century. During that time, the coins closest to the canvas of the bag or near the top of the bag were constantly bombarded by a minute concentration of sulfur. Sulfur was infused in the canvas bags in an attempt to reduce the damage caused by rats chewing on them. The silver reacted with the sulfur to form a thin film of silver-sulfide on the surface of the coins, which reflects and refracts the light so that we see the colors of the rainbow on the coins."

 

Also, when some Morgans were rolled, the paper had a sulfur content and the ones on the ends of the roll next to the paper could also tone.

 

(Quote from article from "Monster Rainbow Toned Morgan Dollars")

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted
How close are these pictures to accurate? They seem more vivid than real life. I've never seen toners look like that in hand, and I've seen plenty.

 

I have. The coins look very nice and completely NT to these eyes. Truly high end monster toners are much scarcer than extremely nice, lesser quality coins often seen in the market.

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted
I'm just curious how these could be naturally toned? Why are only Morgan dollars toned like that and hardly any of the other silver coins? What type of holder would react with the silver to produce bright iridescent colors like this? How rigorous are the grading services in separating out the AT coins from those which genuinely acquired toning over a long period of time?

 

True monster toning absolutely exists and can be retrieved from original mint bags. The pieces did not always circulate as much as silver coins of other denominations and were stored in government vaults longer. There are several factors that would contribute to this toning:

 

1 - contact with original mint bags;

2 - prior to 1901 the Mint used coal heating and there was ample free sulfur in the environment; and

3 - prior to the early 20th century, moisture was also a major problem in government vaults.

 

A combination of these three is absolutely capable of accelerating/producing spectacular toning.

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AHFreak

AHFreak

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Wow.... hows that for a sunday night treat????? If I feel this way just seeing a picture, I cant even imagine how you must feel owning them! (assuming u do own them).

 

Those are three world class monsters if you ask me. I would make posters out of them and hang them in my coin office.

 

 

Thanks for sharing.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
I'm just curious how these could be naturally toned? Why are only Morgan dollars toned like that and hardly any of the other silver coins? What type of holder would react with the silver to produce bright iridescent colors like this? How rigorous are the grading services in separating out the AT coins from those which genuinely acquired toning over a long period of time?

 

They look to be bag-toned and blatantly original, as well as gorgeous.

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Eric Hazen

Eric Hazen

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Only one duplicate I'm planning to sell sometime later this month. I'm attempting a reverse toned date set of Morgan dollars. I don't know that I'll finish with that, nothing really outstanding for many of the dates in the 1890's.

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david3142

david3142

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Of course, we'd love to see pictures of those too.

I wish I could help you but my best are 1879 and 1880, and you're covered there. 1890s are going to be very tough - this sounds like an ambitious project. Good luck!

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RWB

RWB

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The obverses all have a portrait of a plump, matronly Liberty with agricultural products stuck in her hair.

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jpcienkus

jpcienkus

Posted
Posted
I'll give you a buck, tree fitty for 'em.

 

 

Those are very cool.

 

Raisethis I will raise that to $7 , dont you pull and All In on Me Pal !! :grin:

 

I'll call your $7 and raise you $15.

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wdrob

wdrob

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Posted

 

Very nice Morgans and colors. One especially caught my attention only because of some of the colors matched another coin that was once opined.

 

Some very interesting hypocrisy in my opinion, however I might just be interpreting the previous and present statements incorrectly. Maybe I should overlook the absolutes in the statements.

 

 

Morgan_smaller.jpg

 

They look to be bag-toned and blatantly original, as well as gorgeous.

 

Columbian_smaller.jpg

 

The color doesn't look original to me. And even if there were proof that the coin toned on its own in that purse, to me, that wouldn't be justification to label it NT. Because assessments should be made based on the appearance of the coin, not the story that accompanies them.

 

 

 

True monster toning absolutely exists and can be retrieved from original mint bags. The pieces did not always circulate as much as silver coins of other denominations and were stored in government vaults longer. There are several factors that would contribute to this toning:

 

1 - contact with original mint bags;

2 - prior to 1901 the Mint used coal heating and there was ample free sulfur in the environment; and

3 - prior to the early 20th century, moisture was also a major problem in government vaults.

 

A combination of these three is absolutely capable of accelerating/producing spectacular toning.

 

There is no way for a TPG to objectively verify these accounts anyway, and so only the coin should matter.

 

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physics-fan3.14

physics-fan3.14

Posted
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wdrob - you show two completely different coins with two completely different color and toning patterns. One of them is extremely attractive and perfectly original, and the market will pay a very strong premium for it.

 

The other has a toning and color pattern that is very, very different. It is probably not market acceptable. The two coins look absolutely nothing alike, and I don't see where there is any inconsistency or hypocrisy in the statements made in this thread.

 

I believe your point is that "only the coin should matter" and it does. One is consistent with bag toning, a known phenomenon that is very popular. The second does not have toning consistent with widely accepted appearances, and so will not be accepted by the marketplace.

 

 

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted

Very nice Morgans and colors. One especially caught my attention only because of some of the colors matched another coin that was once opined.

 

Some very interesting hypocrisy in my opinion, however I might just be interpreting the previous and present statements incorrectly. Maybe I should overlook the absolutes in the statements.

 

 

Morgan_smaller.jpg

 

They look to be bag-toned and blatantly original, as well as gorgeous.

 

Columbian_smaller.jpg

 

The color doesn't look original to me. And even if there were proof that the coin toned on its own in that purse, to me, that wouldn't be justification to label it NT. Because assessments should be made based on the appearance of the coin, not the story that accompanies them.

 

True monster toning absolutely exists and can be retrieved from original mint bags. The pieces did not always circulate as much as silver coins of other denominations and were stored in government vaults longer. There are several factors that would contribute to this toning:

 

1 - contact with original mint bags;

2 - prior to 1901 the Mint used coal heating and there was ample free sulfur in the environment; and

3 - prior to the early 20th century, moisture was also a major problem in government vaults.

 

A combination of these three is absolutely capable of accelerating/producing spectacular toning.

 

There is no way for a TPG to objectively verify these accounts anyway, and so only the coin should matter.

 

Hi Bill,

 

I don't see any hypocrisy at all, and I absolutely stand by my comments regarding the Morgan Dollars that are the subject of this thread and those of the Columbian Half Dollar from an old thread. A poster in this thread asked about the source of monster toning, and why it might differ from coins of other series. I was merely explaining a mechanism that commonly tones Morgan Dollars. While I do believe that common patterns and sources of typical toning are instructive, I stand by my comments that graders must evaluate the coin itself, and not hearsay that is offered by a submitter who will obviously have an interest in the piece. I do not automatically assume that every rainbow toned or monster toned Morgan Dollar is bagged toned; rather, I look at the coins themselves for evidence as I have here.

 

An examination of the coins themselves suggest that the pieces are naturally toned and that this toning is consistent with bag toning. The colors, pattern, and color progression are consistent with natural bag toning, and these are all very familiar to toned Morgan Dollar collectors. Moreover, we see evidence of so called elevation chromatics indicating a normal, natural progression over time rather than accelerated toning. While the latter is not always definitive, when present, it is a good indication that a coin is likely NT. A full discussion of the dynamics of toning, color, and color progression of Morgan Dollars is beyond the scope of this thread. I will simply summarize in saying that the look is very characteristic of high grade toners.

 

With regards to the Columbian Half Dollar, the colors and color progression are unusual and do not follow what is expected. Moreover, the particular pattern and color combination is very suspicious and is not reminiscent of natural toners at all. I also don't see the resemblance between the Columbian Half and any of the Morgan Dollars in this thread.

 

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

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Thanks for the background on the causes of the toning; no reason to run them through NCS then.

 

NCS? :o

 

To any poster who might have a coin afflicted by such "tarnish," please offer them to me. No need to waste money on NCS. :D

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