1884 3CN MS65?

[RGT]

A few months ago I posted some pictures of a circulated 1884 3CN. I was thinking of getting it slabbed or selling it raw on ebay. I got several helpful responses but James stepped up and said he was interested in the coin. I sent it to him and he verified that it was indeed a business strike and made me a fair offer, which I accepted.

 

1884 is not a difficult date in proof, but quite difficult as a business strike, much like the later date 3CSs. I came across this auction on ebay for an 1884 in MS65.

 

1884 MS65 PL

 

The coin is designated "proof-like" and you can see what service slabbed it. It would seem to me that it's quite a bargain at that price for a real MS65 of this date. I would be a fool to pay so much more to buy this one.

 

1884 MS65

 

Or would I?

 

I'm surprised to find one of these offered on ebay but two at the same time is unheard of. Or maybe one of them is not really surprising at all.

 

Will the "real" MS65 please step forward...

[Oldtrader3]

Personally, I would not touch an ACG coin with a ten foot pole. Plus, the coin does not look right. Maybe I am mistaken, but it looks cleaned to me.

[michael]

the 1884 ms65 pl coin is a proof

 

 

the pcgs ms65 1884 looks good to me and is more than likely a business strike coin

 

but

 

i would need to see the coin in person sight seen to make a 100% identification as to its business strike status

 

and if it is a business strike

 

then

 

also see if it is a business strike struck from a business strike die

obverse only,

reverse only

or both sides or a combo as such

 

or a business strike struck from a proof die

obverse only

reverse only

or both sides or a combo as such

 

michael

[mark]

Michael:

 

Aside from the standard--squared rims, denticles squared, strength of strike, and so forth--are there special things you look at for an 1884 3CN to determine if it's MS or PR?

 

Personally, I'd REALLY like an MS 1884 3CN but even aside from the fact that I currently (or ever?) don't have the $$$ to buy one, I was afraid of buying one from eBay. This type of coin is one that I really want to buy from a dealer that I think knows the difference between a MS and a PR coin.

 

Mark

[RGT]

I was hoping James would comment on this since he's the one who confirmed that mine was a business strike. Maybe he's afraid of being sued.

 

Did they really make separate dies for the proof and business strikes? The mintages of both are so small it doesn't seem worth the effort.

 

Any time I see one of these offered as MS but PL I figure the seller doesn't know what he's talking about or he's hoping the prospective buyer doesn't.

 

I think that even PCGS and NGC get these wrong some times. I would want the opinion of an expert before I spent the extra money a business strike would cost (not that I have near that amount of money to spend anyway). You really can't tell for sure from a photograph.

[TomB]

In my opinion the MS65PL coin is a proof, and the MS65 coin looks like a business strike, but the images are a bit too small.

 

The partial cameo, squared off dentils, apparently incredibly smooth surfaces of the fields, the needle sharpness to the columns and the shape of the lower portion of the bow would make me think that the MS65PL is a proof.

 

The MS65 coin seems to have satiny fields and devices, a fuller bow and less distinct dentils. From the images provided I would think it a business strike.

 

As has been previously said, I would have to see the coin in-hand, and the services have screwed up the designations of these pieces more than most folks would think.

[michael]

hi there mark!!!

 

mark tomb sums things up well

 

but in person you can actually tell if the three cent nick is a biz strike or proof lots of times by the die variety and from the dis state

 

and also the services have a better idea as they can see the coin raw and the third side of the coin the edge is a great indicator of if a three cent nick is proof or ms but we cant see the edge in the holder

 

and also by strike too but sometimes this is deceiving as many proof three cent nicks are only struck once from worn dies so they appear at first glance to be business strike coins

 

but also the color and how some later date 1880's proofs come looking it is a forgone conclusion as to their proof status even if they look like uncs just from expereince in how proofs look in terms of color surfaces and fly specks

 

it is a really interesting series to study

 

this is why i love totally non prooflike and non semi prooflike biz strike 1880's three cent nicks that are totally frosty and with all the charactics of a biz strike coin and none ofthe charasttics of a proof coin of the same date

 

for example the 1880 gem mintstare three cent nick is a really rare coin if it is totally frosty with no trace of prooflike surfaces and maybe 10% of true biz strikes that exist in choice to gem unc are totally frosty ewith no trace of prooflike surface whatsoever

 

and a superb gem mintstate coin like the above is one of the most undervalued sleeper coins in all of coindum

 

but currently with three cent nicks no one knows or cares

 

michael

 

 

herre is one extremely rare coin as it is an 1880 three cent nick graded pcgs ms66

and waht makes it really extraspecial is that it has never been dipped it has a thick skin with blue yellow coloration a light patina you can somewhat see in the photo and extremely eye appealling to boot

 

but what is the killer monster thing about this coin is that it is totally frosty both sides with absolutely no trace of proof prooflike surfaces at all and i would say only 10% 15% of the certified mintstate coins have absolutely no trace of prooflike surfaces like this coin

 

weather they are as high grade and great eye appeal as this coin i do not know but this coin is a really rare sleeper undervalued totally underapprecaited coin

 

but again who knows?? and cares ?/

 

that is the problem

 

 

michael

[michael]

 

 

take a look at this one

 

[EZ_E]

Michael, excellent post you coin-guru, you!

 

 

 

and also by strike too but sometimes this is deceiving as many proof three cent nicks are only struck once from worn dies so they appear at first glance to be business strike coins

 

 

I never knew this. Why would they do such a thing, especially considering the low mintages. I don't expect that an extra strike or two would have over exerted the mint workers.

 

[mark]

michael:

 

Why do you think the eBay PCGS slabbed coin is MS and not PR? Is it perhaps an apparent lack of detail in the hair over and near the ear or in the horizontal bow that ties Ms. Liberty's hair?

 

Other than these apparent weaknesses in detail, to me the luster of coin seems "dangerously" proof-like.

 

Thanks in advance. Also, if anyone else wants to contribute why they think this coin is MS (or PR) thanks in advance.

 

Mark

[EZ_E]

michael:

 

Why do you think the eBay PCGS slabbed coin is MS and not PR? Is it perhaps an apparent lack of detail in the hair over and near the ear or in the horizontal bow that ties Ms. Liberty's hair?

 

Other than these apparent weaknesses in detail, to me the luster of coin seems "dangerously" proof-like.

 

Thanks in advance. Also, if anyone else wants to contribute why they think this coin is MS (or PR) thanks in advance.

 

Mark

 

Any lack of detail could be attributed to a late die state and does not necessarily have anything to do with its manufactured state.

 

As already mentioned, one of the key diagnostic points is fully struck, squared denticles. But, if as Michael mentioned, they are struck only once with worn dies then maybe even this tell won't be applicable. He'll have to comment on this since it is beyond the scope of my knowledge.

[gmarguli]

the 1884 ms65 pl coin is a proof

 

the pcgs ms65 1884 looks good to me and is more than likely a business strike coin

 

I feel the same way, but these are really difficult to tell.

 

Several years ago I purchased an awesome 3CN that had an extremely sharp strike, exceptional luster with semi-prooflike fields, and had the wonderful look of a lightly impaired proof. I submitted it to PCG$ expecting to get it back graded as a proof. They said it was a business strike.

 

Maybe a year ago I was looking at another one that had a poor strike (none of the lettering was bold or squared, rim was round as can be), no reflectivity, etc. Looked like a typical low grade unc example. I was blown away when I found out it was a proof only issue.

 

Having said the above, I have had PF/MS only issues misgraded in the past.

[michael]

thnaks victor !!! you mske some excellent points and you are a good friend and also you give me way too much credit i got you really fooled

 

but you are a good hardworking down to earth guy with great integrity and ethics and way smart you have learned more than i have in coins the last few years and know your stuff and do not take any [#@$%!!!] from anyone

 

mark!! i think the pcgs coin is a business strike i am like 90% sure from the photo but i would need to see it in person i just cant say here why or how as it would take me hundreds of pages i would need to see the coin sight seen and in person and i would need to see the edge of thecoin if all the points are there for a biz strike including IF any known die varities only for biz str8ikes then it is like 100% but there are other ways to tell too

---------------------------------------------------------

liberty nicks are the same way too in the 1880's it is hard to tell ms raree ms from the more available proofs

 

take for instance the 1889 a true mintstate coin will be prooflike and also most all the biz strike lib nicks from 1889 where struck once from a proof obverse die!!

 

but you can tell them as long as it has all the traits of an ms coin and you know and understand what you are looking at

but itis just impossible to tell you all the possibilities unless you show me the coin sight seen in hand

=======================================================

back to three cent nicks

 

 

now there are later date three cent nick biz strike coins that are prooflike and rightly so if low mintage and there are proof strikings of later date proof three cent nicks that are weakly struck with worn dies and struck with biz strike dies from the same year!! also many proofs where struck only once and with littrle to no mirrors

 

trite but still nonethe less true

 

sometimes it is just a guesstimate other times like the 1880 ms coin i posted is a no brainer biz strike due to the surfaces strike and edge of the coin and die varities for the year omnly found on biz strike coins

 

and so it makes this 1880 i posted a no brainer biz strike and like i said less than 15% of the biz strike 1880 coins for example have totally non prooflike surfaces both sides

 

so this coin is not only rare like this but a no brainer non proof coin

 

with the dates after it is difficylt at best especially so the extremely rare 1885 and of course witrh true biz strikes since there where so few made and most all if not all of the lower mintage later date 1880's three cent nicks are prooflike and again many later date 1880's proofs that are true proofs have little if any proof surfaces and lor=ts where given only one strike from a worn biz strike die!

 

so it is a complicated matter and like many have posted on here there are at the top pricing services coins that are in proof holders that are true ms coins

 

i know a friend of mine who has a superb gem proofcoin in a top tear holder that is graded proof and he finally matcyhed the die varities in a reference book he had and it is a mintstate coin what a score that

 

is

 

 

and i have no doubt that some graded biz strike are proof coins

 

since the series is not really studied aND COLLEcTED FOR YEARS not much is known by many

 

and even with the large cents that have been studies avidly studiede since the civil war the books keep being rewritten on new discoveries and corrections to long thought facts that turn out not to be correct new findings and discoveries everyday and again not even started for the three cent nicks

 

so three cent nick collectrs gots a long way to go and any questions on the subject is like hitting virgin uncharted forest except for the handful of local mountain men been there forever and love it that know the terrain

 

i would love to see these two coins on ebay and then out of the holder side by side and i can show you and answer all your questions to the best of my ability and show you the differences and nuances of the coins and why or why not they are proof or biz strike and most likely can make a 100% determination on these coins

 

but again i would need to see the coins in person to comment fully

 

as there are so many varibles and to answer i need to see the coin in hand with a glass under a strong indescendanct light and also the edge of the coin to answer your question

anything else is just verbal masturbation

 

 

good luck and this was an extremely informative post for you with thesds two 1884 three cent nicks

 

 

michael

[EZ_E]

so three cent nick collectrs gots a long way to go and any questions on the subject is like hitting virgin uncharted forest except for the handful of local mountain men been there forever and love it that know the terrain

 

 

That is poetry, man.

 

***** five-star post, Michael!

[James_OldeTowne]

I will only say, don't buy this coin!

 

One of the quickest checks is to look at the edge of the coin. The edge of nearly all Proof IIIcn's is polished, which is not true of business strikes. Unfortunately, the image is too skewed to use the date positioning for this example.

 

I'll pull out the book and see if I can provide a more in-depth answer tomorrow!

 

James

[mark]

James:

 

What book are you "pulling out"? I ask because that's a coin I am thinking long and hard about. My major concern is the fact that it's being sold on eBay by a non-major dealer. If the coin was sold by someone that I "know," I'd be much more likely to cough up what are big bucks for me.

 

Thanks.

 

Mark

[James_OldeTowne]

Mark, not to spam my website, but please go to www.EarlyUS.com and look for a link to "The Three Cent Nickel Book". It contains information on how to purchase this invaluable reference. I know the author personally, and he would be very eager to help you out.

 

I've had a chance to review these two coins, and working from poor digital images, here is my opinion. The ACG coin is CORRECTLY ATTRIBUTED. I believe it is in fact a very rare business strike. However, I emphasize that this working from an image, obviously a poor substitute for having the coin in hand.

 

I believe the PCGS coin is A PROOF, though one from a later die state, and thus not producing a very proof-appearing coin. But this image is much worse than the one for the ACG coin (coincidence?), so I'm working from an artificially blown-up image.

 

Again, if you have any further questions, or if you ever intend to dabble in 3cn's, I STRONGLY RECOMMEND you buy the book I've referenced on my website. It is an expensive book, but I assure you, I've more than saved the price of the book by not purchasing incorrectly certified coins. And there are MANY errors in PCGS and NGC slabs!!!

 

James

[mark]

James:

 

There is NO way that your response can be considered a spam; it's an answer to the question I posed. I am quite interested in the book. Do you sell it or do I need to contact the author?

 

Thanks in advance for your certified (by me) non-spam response.

 

Mark

[James_OldeTowne]

Mark, when I set up at shows, Allan (the author) is always kind enough to bring me a few books to sell, but I do not mark them up at all, and make nothing for selling them. I do it purely as a service to collectors, because knowledge and experience, such as what is contained in the book, is priceless.

 

It's better to contact and order from Allan directly though, using the contact information in the link I mentioned. I'd appreciate it if you mentioned where you heard about the book, since he's trying to keep track of where collectors "hang out" when they hear about the reference.

 

To everyone interested in 3cn's, I can't emphasize enough the value of this book - definitely worth the cost. When you read it, you will be astounded by the amount of information Allan has packed in between the two covers.

 

GOOD LUCK!

 

James

[RGT]

I just want to say thanks for all the replies and good info in this thread. This turned out much better than I was expecting and much more informative. If I were going to collect these coins that book would be a "must have". What I had heard before and was confirmed here is that you can't even trust the first tier TPGs to get the attribution right every time on these.

 

Now, when is someone going to write a book like that about three cent silvers?

[mark]

James:

 

Thank you very much. I will email Allan when I get home and I will mention both you and these NGC boards.

 

Thanks again.

 

Mark