Would you continue to sell certified coins to a buyer.....

[MarkFeld]

If you learned that he was cracking them out and offering them at higher grades on Ebay, while lying in his listings about where he obtained the coins?

[comicdonna]

No. I would post the persons ebay id, so others could block him.

[jpcienkus]

No.

 

Edited to add: Is this just hypethetical or do you know of it happening as I type?

[BillJones]

I was not aware that it was that easy to sell raw coins for more money than slabbed coins for higher prices, even on eBay.

 

Here is another way to look at it. Years ago it was said that one of the major dealers was supplying AU coins to the disreputable Rare Coins of America "investment company" who was re-selling them as Choice Mint State at significantly higher prices to non-collectors. Was it unethical for that dealer to continue to supply Rare Coins of America with coins knowing what they were doing?

[Coindude]

No. Edited to add: Is this just hypethetical or do you know of it happening as I type?

This happens quite a bit. Peruse the PCGS boards and you'll find a lot of links to coins that were won ah Heritage then cracked and a cockamamie story made up about having these in their family and passed down from their grandfather or something similar. It's sickening to watch people get ripped off like that and I for one am glad Mark is asking the question which means to me he's looking at doing something about it.

[coinman_23885]

No. I would feel guilty enabling the would be seller.

[Raisethis2]

Since you can't suggest a grade on raw coins on E-Bay without the E-Bay police shutting down your listing, I'm assuming he's having them re-slabbed.

 

I think it's kinda bush league but if you sold it at an agreed upon price, he can do whatever he want's with it I guess.

 

That doesn't mean you have to sell to him in the future.

[jpcienkus]

No. Edited to add: Is this just hypethetical or do you know of it happening as I type?

This happens quite a bit. Peruse the PCGS boards and you'll find a lot of links to coins that were won ah Heritage then cracked and a cockamamie story made up about having these in their family and passed down from their grandfather or something similar. It's sickening to watch people get ripped off like that and I for one am glad Mark is asking the question which means to me he's looking at doing something about it.

 

I've heard of people doing this, but personally, I'd never be able to live with myself if I were participating in that kind of deceitful practice. I'm sure it happens more than I know, or care to know. Thanks for the clarification.

 

I was wondering if Mark had targeted a specific seller on eBay or just posing the question. Based on your response, I guess it's the former. I'll be interested to see how this thread proceeds.

[MarkFeld]

Since you can't suggest a grade on raw coins on E-Bay without the E-Bay police shutting down your listing, I'm assuming he's having them re-slabbed.

 

I think it's kinda bush league but if you sold it at an agreed upon price, he can do whatever he want's with it I guess.

 

That doesn't mean you have to sell to him in the future.

 

In my "hypothetical" the coins are not being re-slabbed, but rather, being described as "gem", with comments such as "would grade very high mint state".

[Raisethis2]

In keeping with the idea that E-Bay doesn't allow sellers to grade coins I'd say I've done exactly the same. I post raw coins with descriptions like Gem, Near Gem, Choice, etc.

 

I try hard to be earnest in those descriptions.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

In keeping with the idea that E-Bay doesn't allow sellers to grade coins I'd say I've done exactly the same. I post raw coins with descriptions like Gem, Near Gem, Choice, etc.

 

I try hard to be earnest in those descriptions.

 

 

I understand about Ebay not allowing sellers of uncertified coins to list numerical grades. Of course, no one forced the seller to crack the coins out of their holders and thus have to face that restriction by Ebay.

 

But do you think you would describe a coin as "gem" and "would grade very high mint state" if you cracked it out of a 61, 62 or 63 holder? And would you claim it had been in a family for decades, without knowing that to be the case?

[PerryHall]

This is nothing new. Dishonest dealers have been over hyping and over grading coins since the first coin was sold to a collector for more than face value. The success of the major grading services was a direct result of collectors demanding an honest third party opinion of an expensive coin before they were willing to buy it.

[MarkFeld]

This is nothing new. Dishonest dealers have been over hyping and over grading coins since the first coin was sold to a collector for more than face value. The success of the major grading services was a direct result of collectors demanding an honest third party opinion of an expensive coin before they were willing to buy it.

 

I think each of us understands that it's nothing new and that wasn't the point of this thread. I started it because I was curious as to how others feel about selling coins to those whom they know behave in such a fashion.

[bsshog40]

As one that rarely sells coins and what coins I do sell are probably not worth cracking out and trying to get more money for them If I were a dealer or big time seller and found out what the seller/buyer was doing, then yes I'd probably block them from buying. Of course all this would do is have them find another venue to persue is low life practices.

[Afterword]

Should you continue to sell or buy coins on ebay if you believe they are turning a blind eye to such shady dealings on their site as are being discussed in this thread?

[Tyler N.]

Beating a dead horse: didn't Great Southern Coins (allegedly) partake in this type of behavior? If I remember correctly, they were buying problem coins, cracking them out and advertising them as "gem BU++" and the like. They are much less prevalent on eBay now.

 

To answer your question, I would not continue selling to that buyer.

[mtnstyne]

I've kicked several Soldiers out of the Army over the past 18 months for issues involving bad judgment, integrity and honor. In ALL the cases the individuals showed lack of integrity first and foremost and to me is an indicator of poor character.

 

It may be idealistic but I would hope as a culture we still want to be able to trust those we deal with. That being said I would never do business with someone I knew as acting as described; further, I would also put his business out to everyone I could. Maybe I am brainwashed but anyone who continues to contribute to someone defrauding other collectors is just as guilty as the con artist.

 

To be clear, I have nothing against cracking out a coin and reselling it. But to lie about the source, the potential grade, and to due so only for profit is unacceptable.

[PerryHall]

This is nothing new. Dishonest dealers have been over hyping and over grading coins since the first coin was sold to a collector for more than face value. The success of the major grading services was a direct result of collectors demanding an honest third party opinion of an expensive coin before they were willing to buy it.

 

I think each of us understands that it's nothing new and that wasn't the point of this thread. I started it because I was curious as to how others feel about selling coins to those whom they know behave in such a fashion.

 

To answer your question, I wouldn't facilitate this coin dealers unethical activities by selling him coins. I remember when PCGS started grading and slabbing coins. Some dealers would buy AU58 super sliders and crack them out so they could sell them raw as MS coins. This didn't last long as more and more collectors insisted on buying only slabbed coins. I would think that a dealer would have trouble selling expensive raw coins in this era where virtually every decent coin has already been slabbed. When I see a raw coin that's worth more than a few hundred dollars I ask myself what's wrong with it that it hasn't been slabbed. I also heavily discount the value of any expensive raw coin that I see in a dealer's inventory because there is a real likelihood that it has some problem or that it's over graded.

[Kurtdog]

No market grade is sacrosanct just because it's on a holder. If I knew the guy was defrauding the public with my lowball certified coins--and, it would have to be a pattern and practice, and pretty darn clear and convincing evidence of such--then, no, I don't think I'd want to be a part of that, if that should help you out any...

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

If you learned that he was cracking them out and offering them at higher grades on Ebay, while lying in his listings about where he obtained the coins?

 

Oh good... Feld hypothetical time.....

 

A few questions (allowed under the Feld Hypothetical Rules):

 

Is the question limited to EBay? If not, does it include numismatic auction venues both reputable and non-reputable?

 

Is the buyer associated with a Dealer/Auction House/Grading Service?

 

By using the phrase "continue to sell", an ongoing association is assumed. Was there any agreement as to whether the coins would remain in the present Holder?

 

If the coins are cracked out and offered for sale, is the "Proof" that it is the same coin is bcause it is "recognized" by the Seller?

 

What are the "lying" parameters? In other words, is it a story accompanying a coin, such as it was found in the attic of a home owned by a little old lady that lived there 78 years, and remembers her father put a can of coins in the attic fro a rain day? In other words, is embellishment for sales hype a Lie? Is embellishment of a coin for sale by the Seller not allowed? It would seem that if this is the position implied by the hypothetical, then virtually every coin bought from a known auction venue, or at a coin show, must be branded a lie?

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

This is nothing new. Dishonest dealers have been over hyping and over grading coins since the first coin was sold to a collector for more than face value. The success of the major grading services was a direct result of collectors demanding an honest third party opinion of an expensive coin before they were willing to buy it.

 

I think each of us understands that it's nothing new and that wasn't the point of this thread. I started it because I was curious as to how others feel about selling coins to those whom they know behave in such a fashion.

 

To answer your question, I wouldn't facilitate this coin dealers unethical activities by selling him coins. I remember when PCGS started grading and slabbing coins. Some dealers would buy AU58 super sliders and crack them out so they could sell them raw as MS coins. This didn't last long as more and more collectors insisted on buying only slabbed coins. I would think that a dealer would have trouble selling expensive raw coins in this era where virtually every decent coin has already been slabbed. When I see a raw coin that's worth more than a few hundred dollars I ask myself what's wrong with it that it hasn't been slabbed. I also heavily discount the value of any expensive raw coin that I see in a dealer's inventory because there is a real likelihood that it has some problem or that it's over graded.

 

While I understand your Posts, there is a slight disconnect.

 

Assume a person is a very knowledgeable Collector, and knows the parameters of Grading....technical or Market. This person sees non-slabbed coins for sale. He mentally discounts the coin and assumes it is flawed in some manner, because it is expensive and not slabbed. Would this person have the same thoughts if the coin was in a Holder? In pother words, does the person not trust his abilities and assumes the TPG must be right?

 

The super slider example used....it is still used today, and there is no revolt among the Collector customers. In fact, it is a daily occurrence, and supports the Grading submitting/re-submitting hobby...hoping for a home run. Should all of the participants in this time honored game be suspect?

[MarkFeld]

Please see replies to your questions.

 

If you learned that he was cracking them out and offering them at higher grades on Ebay, while lying in his listings about where he obtained the coins?

 

Oh good... Feld hypothetical time.....

 

A few questions (allowed under the Feld Hypothetical Rules):

 

Is the question limited to EBay? If not, does it include numismatic auction venues both reputable and non-reputable?

NO

Is the buyer associated with a Dealer/Auction House/Grading Service? Yes

 

By using the phrase "continue to sell", an ongoing association is assumed. Was there any agreement as to whether the coins would remain in the present Holder? No discussion about anything.

 

If the coins are cracked out and offered for sale, is the "Proof" that it is the same coin is because it is "recognized" by the Seller? Yes and by someone else who alerted the seller.

What are the "lying" parameters? In other words, is it a story accompanying a coin, such as it was found in the attic of a home owned by a little old lady that lived there 78 years, and remembers her father put a can of coins in the attic fro a rain day? Story is to the effect that it was a recent purchase and coins had been in the same family for 50 years. In fact, the coins were recent auction purchases.

In other words, is embellishment for sales hype a Lie? In this case, a lie

 

Is embellishment of a coin for sale by the Seller not allowed? A blatant lie of this sort should not be allowed.

It would seem that if this is the position implied by the hypothetical, then virtually every coin bought from a known auction venue, or at a coin show, must be branded a lie? No

[MarkFeld]

Here is a description from the seller - the coin in question was recently purchased through an auction:

 

"I wish I had the time and money to send every coin off for certification but I don't. This is a nice coin that will grade very High Mint State. This coin has been put up for over 50 years and part of a large estate I am selling. This coin belonged to a Banker whose father was a banker and his father before him a banker When buying coins from this collection today I ran into a hoard of DEEP MIRROR PROOF LIKE Dollars and will be listing them for some time! Just an unbelievable collection I am buying with new surprises every time I go to purchase coins!

 

All Original with Great Eye Appeal. I will offer my personal buy back guarantee, that this coin is all original and will not come back Ungradeable by any major grading service."

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Please see replies to your questions.

 

If you learned that he was cracking them out and offering them at higher grades on Ebay, while lying in his listings about where he obtained the coins?

 

Oh good... Feld hypothetical time.....

 

A few questions (allowed under the Feld Hypothetical Rules):

 

Is the question limited to EBay? If not, does it include numismatic auction venues both reputable and non-reputable?

NO

Is the buyer associated with a Dealer/Auction House/Grading Service? Yes

 

By using the phrase "continue to sell", an ongoing association is assumed. Was there any agreement as to whether the coins would remain in the present Holder? No discussion about anything.

 

If the coins are cracked out and offered for sale, is the "Proof" that it is the same coin is because it is "recognized" by the Seller? Yes and by someone else who alerted the seller.

What are the "lying" parameters? In other words, is it a story accompanying a coin, such as it was found in the attic of a home owned by a little old lady that lived there 78 years, and remembers her father put a can of coins in the attic fro a rain day? Story is to the effect that it was a recent purchase and coins had been in the same family for 50 years. In fact, the coins were recent auction purchases.

In other words, is embellishment for sales hype a Lie? In this case, a lie

 

Is embellishment of a coin for sale by the Seller not allowed? A blatant lie of this sort should not be allowed.

It would seem that if this is the position implied by the hypothetical, then virtually every coin bought from a known auction venue, or at a coin show, must be branded a lie? No

 

Thanks.

 

The hypothetical parameters clarity is much better, now.

 

The Seller bought the coin from an auction company. So, the presentation of the hypothetical is that an auction company sold a coin, the seller cracked it out, and embellished the coin story line for sale on EBay. It is assumed the auction company discovered this, and is now faced with a hypothetical question: should they sell certified coins to this buyer in the future, based on what occurred, or not?

[e1cnr]

Here is a description from the seller - the coin in question was recently purchased through an auction:

 

"I wish I had the time and money to send every coin off for certification but I don't. This is a nice coin that will grade very High Mint State. This coin has been put up for over 50 years and part of a large estate I am selling. This coin belonged to a Banker whose father was a banker and his father before him a banker When buying coins from this collection today I ran into a hoard of DEEP MIRROR PROOF LIKE Dollars and will be listing them for some time! Just an unbelievable collection I am buying with new surprises every time I go to purchase coins!

 

All Original with Great Eye Appeal. I will offer my personal buy back guarantee, that this coin is all original and will not come back Ungradeable by any major grading service."

 

Did they just buy this in an altered surfaces slab?

 

or are they just overhyping and not selling problem coins?

[Coindude]

This is my favorite part of their auction listing.

 

14 DAY MONEY BACK GUARANTEE NO QUETSIONS ASKED. However, You won't return the coin because it is just to nice and you won't be disappointed.

 

All of my auctions offer a 14 day money back guarantee. Please don't come to me after this because I will not have a coin out of my hands any longer than this. There have been some attempted switch arooo's on me and I will not stand for it.

[MarkFeld]

Please see replies to your questions.

 

If you learned that he was cracking them out and offering them at higher grades on Ebay, while lying in his listings about where he obtained the coins?

 

Oh good... Feld hypothetical time.....

 

A few questions (allowed under the Feld Hypothetical Rules):

 

Is the question limited to EBay? If not, does it include numismatic auction venues both reputable and non-reputable?

NO

Is the buyer associated with a Dealer/Auction House/Grading Service? Yes

 

By using the phrase "continue to sell", an ongoing association is assumed. Was there any agreement as to whether the coins would remain in the present Holder? No discussion about anything.

 

If the coins are cracked out and offered for sale, is the "Proof" that it is the same coin is because it is "recognized" by the Seller? Yes and by someone else who alerted the seller.

What are the "lying" parameters? In other words, is it a story accompanying a coin, such as it was found in the attic of a home owned by a little old lady that lived there 78 years, and remembers her father put a can of coins in the attic fro a rain day? Story is to the effect that it was a recent purchase and coins had been in the same family for 50 years. In fact, the coins were recent auction purchases.

In other words, is embellishment for sales hype a Lie? In this case, a lie

 

Is embellishment of a coin for sale by the Seller not allowed? A blatant lie of this sort should not be allowed.

It would seem that if this is the position implied by the hypothetical, then virtually every coin bought from a known auction venue, or at a coin show, must be branded a lie? No

 

Thanks.

 

The hypothetical parameters clarity is much better, now.

 

The Seller bought the coin from an auction company. So, the presentation of the hypothetical is that an auction company sold a coin, the seller cracked it out, and embellished the coin story line for sale on EBay. It is assumed the auction company discovered this, and is now faced with a hypothetical question: should they sell certified coins to this buyer in the future, based on what occurred, or not?

 

For purposes of this discussion, the original sale could have been on Ebay, as well.

 

Also, if you were the original seller, now deciding whether to let the liar bid in the future, would it matter whether you were selling your own coins or were taking them on consignment to sell for someone else?

[MarkFeld]

Here is a description from the seller - the coin in question was recently purchased through an auction:

 

"I wish I had the time and money to send every coin off for certification but I don't. This is a nice coin that will grade very High Mint State. This coin has been put up for over 50 years and part of a large estate I am selling. This coin belonged to a Banker whose father was a banker and his father before him a banker When buying coins from this collection today I ran into a hoard of DEEP MIRROR PROOF LIKE Dollars and will be listing them for some time! Just an unbelievable collection I am buying with new surprises every time I go to purchase coins!

 

All Original with Great Eye Appeal. I will offer my personal buy back guarantee, that this coin is all original and will not come back Ungradeable by any major grading service."

 

Did they just buy this in an altered surfaces slab?

 

or are they just overhyping and not selling problem coins?

 

The ones I have seen, thus far, were graded in the MS61-63 PL range. Does it matter? In other words, would you stop doing business with someone because you know he is a liar? Would he also need to overstate the condition of the coins? Deal with him, regardless?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Here is a description from the seller - the coin in question was recently purchased through an auction:

 

"I wish I had the time and money to send every coin off for certification but I don't. This is a nice coin that will grade very High Mint State. This coin has been put up for over 50 years and part of a large estate I am selling. This coin belonged to a Banker whose father was a banker and his father before him a banker When buying coins from this collection today I ran into a hoard of DEEP MIRROR PROOF LIKE Dollars and will be listing them for some time! Just an unbelievable collection I am buying with new surprises every time I go to purchase coins!

 

All Original with Great Eye Appeal. I will offer my personal buy back guarantee, that this coin is all original and will not come back Ungradeable by any major grading service."

 

I just read this , after answering your Post.

 

I read embellishment here. I don't know if the original coin was put up for 50 years, I assume not. I also assume it is not part of a large estate, unless it is his own. The rest of the story is about other coins he will be selling. So, the debate issues stated by the description are:

 

1) The origination of the coin is not known, except that the buyer bought a coin encapsulated at an auction. Embellishment.

 

2) The coin could have been original when graded, and original when cracked out. Embellishment.

 

3) The coin will not come back as ungradeable(sic). This is the one I have a problem with. Nobody can guarantee this with 100% certainty. However, assuming the seller is known for standing behind his warranty and following through, he is offering a guaranty.

 

4) He did not send the coin in for re-grading, or if he did, he didn't mention it. If he did, and it came back a lower Grade, or "ungradeable", he didn't disclose it. This is where I will hang my hat for my opinion. He is lying, based on the fact that he did not state the coin had been previously graded and certified. He chose to mislead, by his embellishment, the "originality and high mint state", as if the coin had never been graded. Had he not included language that misleads the reader, I would have been OK with his actions. I am not.

 

As to the auctioneer house deciding to cut this buyer off based on this action, or bar him from buying further coins, I think it would not be a very successful attempt.

 

As usual, buyer beware, to the eventual EBay buyer of this coin.

 

What the Grade was or wasn't prior to the crack out is not considered in my thoughts, as it would have only been an opinion, anyway.

[mikew148]

Please see replies to your questions.

 

If you learned that he was cracking them out and offering them at higher grades on Ebay, while lying in his listings about where he obtained the coins?

 

Oh good... Feld hypothetical time.....

 

A few questions (allowed under the Feld Hypothetical Rules):

 

Is the question limited to EBay? If not, does it include numismatic auction venues both reputable and non-reputable?

NO

Is the buyer associated with a Dealer/Auction House/Grading Service? Yes

 

By using the phrase "continue to sell", an ongoing association is assumed. Was there any agreement as to whether the coins would remain in the present Holder? No discussion about anything.

 

If the coins are cracked out and offered for sale, is the "Proof" that it is the same coin is because it is "recognized" by the Seller? Yes and by someone else who alerted the seller.

What are the "lying" parameters? In other words, is it a story accompanying a coin, such as it was found in the attic of a home owned by a little old lady that lived there 78 years, and remembers her father put a can of coins in the attic fro a rain day? Story is to the effect that it was a recent purchase and coins had been in the same family for 50 years. In fact, the coins were recent auction purchases.

In other words, is embellishment for sales hype a Lie? In this case, a lie

 

Is embellishment of a coin for sale by the Seller not allowed? A blatant lie of this sort should not be allowed.

It would seem that if this is the position implied by the hypothetical, then virtually every coin bought from a known auction venue, or at a coin show, must be branded a lie? No

 

Thanks.

 

The hypothetical parameters clarity is much better, now.

 

The Seller bought the coin from an auction company. So, the presentation of the hypothetical is that an auction company sold a coin, the seller cracked it out, and embellished the coin story line for sale on EBay. It is assumed the auction company discovered this, and is now faced with a hypothetical question: should they sell certified coins to this buyer in the future, based on what occurred, or not?

 

It was very easy to locate the seller in question on eBay.

 

Sellers "new/raw" grades are very liberal to say the least.

 

I don't like his game and No, I wouldn't want to be involved with him.