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What gives?

Started by dimefreak,

107 posts in this topic

jpcienkus

jpcienkus

Posted
Posted

So at times, most times, authentication is just a matter of opinion as well.

 

How long does a grader spend on each coin ? Seconds ? Does anyone think that each coin that is graded is authenticated as well as graded ? Or do you think true authentication (which might require minutes to research (die markers) as opposed to seconds) is held for some coins that are more costly and rare ? Does anyone think that NCG and PCGS authenticate every MS65 Morgan they see ?

 

I'm not expert nor have I been in a grading room; however, I would think as coins with questionable authenticity cross their station, they either can spot them immediately or call for a second opinion.

 

You collect toners and have made it very clear you look at thousands of coins a week. I have no doubt that you have held many more than that in your hands. When you pick up a coin or see one online, can you not spot the fakes rather readily? If a coin you see/hold is questionable, don't you take a few more minutes to examine it?

 

I suspect it's similar for the graders.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

So at times, most times, authentication is just a matter of opinion as well.

 

How long does a grader spend on each coin ? Seconds ? Does anyone think that each coin that is graded is authenticated as well as graded ? Or do you think true authentication (which might require minutes to research (die markers) as opposed to seconds) is held for some coins that are more costly and rare ? Does anyone think that NCG and PCGS authenticate every MS65 Morgan they see ?

 

I'm not expert nor have I been in a grading room; however, I would think as coins with questionable authenticity cross their station, they either can spot them immediately or call for a second opinion.

 

You collect toners and have made it very clear you look at thousands of coins a week. I have no doubt that you have held many more than that in your hands. When you pick up a coin or see one online, can you not spot the fakes rather readily? If a coin you see/hold is questionable, don't you take a few more minutes to examine it?

 

I suspect it's similar for the graders.

 

You suspect correctly.

 

In most cases, a knowledgeable numismatist will know virtually immediately, whether a coin is genuine. In a very small percentage of instances, a coin will need to be studied more thoroughly in order the determine whether it's genuine. And yes, admittedly, mistakes are made on extremely rare occasions.

 

On the other hand, I believe that In the case of grading and toning questions, additional study is far less likely to result in the "correct" answer. And that's largely because there isn't necessarily a "correct" answer to be had.

 

So despite what TonerGuy has posted, I believe that grading and AT/NT opinions differ considerably from authenticity determinations.

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TonerGuy

TonerGuy

Posted
Posted

 

I'm not expert nor have I been in a grading room; however, I would think as coins with questionable authenticity cross their station, they either can spot them immediately or call for a second opinion.

 

You collect toners and have made it very clear you look at thousands of coins a week. I have no doubt that you have held many more than that in your hands. When you pick up a coin or see one online, can you not spot the fakes rather readily? If a coin you see/hold is questionable, don't you take a few more minutes to examine it?

 

I suspect it's similar for the graders.

 

I cannot spot fakes since it is not something I am familiar with and I have not taken a class. Personally I think that fakes will become a larger and more pronounced problem in the hobby as technology advances.

 

I am not casting aspersions but when Carr can make his pieces almost appear identical to a regular circulating series - its only takes someone of less moral fiber to take it to the next level. How difficult would it be to make dies with all of the die markers, die cracks, die polish lines that an actual real coin has so that an overstrike can match that original coin as close to perfectly as possible. With CAD programs and laser mapping it might be rather easy.

 

And as long as the counterfeiter is not greedy and keeps his fakes to improving common dates that will inspire less scrutiny - its not hard to take a $20 silver slug/coin and turn it into a $100-$200 coin or even more.

 

This has happened in the art world as well as fine wines. There is no reason to believe that its not currently or wont happen with coins. So what happens when these fakes are making it into PCGS and NGC slabs regularly ?

 

Alibaba just raised $21 billion - thats with a B with their IPO. Thats scary since many of these fakes originate in China.

 

So for those of you that say"who cares if PCGS grades an AT coin or 2" - I say you better care because some day its going to be the coin that you collect and you wont know if its real or if its fake. And when that happens this industry will come crashing down. Or perhaps circulated coins will become the rage.

 

Grading is going to have to change and its going to have to remove the human eye & opinion element from it - even for authentication.

 

Something to consider.

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Mr.Mcknowitall

Mr.Mcknowitall

Posted
Posted

This seems to agree with Mr. Feld.

 

Okay I will take the bait...

 

He said authentication is based on fact and numerical grading and toning was an opinion.

 

I said everything a TPG does is based on opinion. (with one caveat - scientifically testing the metal content of a particular coin with a machine) When a human is involved in a decision about a coin its an opinion - even authentication.

 

How does my answer change that ?

 

 

Baiting someone never enters my mind. Use of words and the logic of the words and ideas expressed does. You have now expanded the intent of your thoughts, and added a little more clarity. In general, though, there does seem to be a fundamental agreement, just expressed and emphasized in a different manner and cyberw-orld tonal delivery.

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jpcienkus

jpcienkus

Posted
Posted

I cannot spot fakes since it is not something I am familiar with and I have not taken a class. Personally I think that fakes will become a larger and more pronounced problem in the hobby as technology advances.

 

I am not casting aspersions but when Carr can make his pieces almost appear identical to a regular circulating series - its only takes someone of less moral fiber to take it to the next level. How difficult would it be to make dies with all of the die markers, die cracks, die polish lines that an actual real coin has so that an overstrike can match that original coin as close to perfectly as possible. With CAD programs and laser mapping it might be rather easy.

 

And as long as the counterfeiter is not greedy and keeps his fakes to improving common dates that will inspire less scrutiny - its not hard to take a $20 silver slug/coin and turn it into a $100-$200 coin or even more.

 

This has happened in the art world as well as fine wines. There is no reason to believe that its not currently or wont happen with coins. So what happens when these fakes are making it into PCGS and NGC slabs regularly ?

 

Alibaba just raised $21 billion - thats with a B with their IPO. Thats scary since many of these fakes originate in China.

 

So for those of you that say"who cares if PCGS grades an AT coin or 2" - I say you better care because some day its going to be the coin that you collect and you wont know if its real or if its fake. And when that happens this industry will come crashing down. Or perhaps circulated coins will become the rage.

 

Grading is going to have to change and its going to have to remove the human eye & opinion element from it - even for authentication.

 

Something to consider.

 

I agree that with modern technology, fake coins will be a bigger problem in the hobby. I don't have an answer for that, I was just making a comment on the grading rooms and what I suppose would happen.

 

Alibaba is a big worry. A larger version of eBay with even less controls! (shrug)

 

I'm hoping the Top 2 TPG's will/are taking extra precautions when it comes to authenticating coins. I do know about slippery slopes and I think that's what you are implying with the AT getting into holders to become MT. It should be a concern, I agree.

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

Basic authentication is largely objective.

Toning and tarnish, however, fall into the uncertain range from obviously a blow torch job to ehhh, not sure about this one.

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dimefreak

dimefreak

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Can we just go back to slamming just PCGS...which is what this thread was intended for in the first place? If people keep posting here, this forum might not meet the quota for the year.

 

Qouta goes down here maybe they will start giving special favors and over grading ! Then I won't have to send my coins all the way across the country anymore! :-)

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LogPotato

LogPotato

Posted
Posted
Can we just go back to slamming just PCGS...which is what this thread was intended for in the first place? If people keep posting here, this forum might not meet the quota for the year.

 

Qouta goes down here maybe they will start giving special favors and over grading ! Then I won't have to send my coins all the way across the country anymore! :-)

 

Maybe you should save your money and enjoy your coins.

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dimefreak

dimefreak

Posted
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Posted
Can we just go back to slamming just PCGS...which is what this thread was intended for in the first place? If people keep posting here, this forum might not meet the quota for the year.

 

Qouta goes down here maybe they will start giving special favors and over grading ! Then I won't have to send my coins all the way across the country anymore! :-)

 

Maybe you should save your money and enjoy your coins.

 

How will I know how much to like them if I don't have them graded?

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TonerGuy

TonerGuy

Posted
Posted
Coin is now in hand and........... Its gorgeous! I actually believe it is NT! Crazy how a pic can relay such a different story!

 

Dreams are a wonderful thing.... Enjoy.

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