What gives?

[AHFreak]

To clarify and so that I clearly understand what seems to be the consensus of most of the responses to this thread are... please let me paraphrase...

 

Who cares if PCGS (or NGC) get the question of authentic toning correct or not. Who cares if they slab blatantly AT coins, and really its all just the buyers of these types of coins fault, not the TPGS for grading them.

 

Does that seem to sum up the thoughts of Jom, 19Lyds, newprepper and AHFreak ?

 

I just want to make sure I have an accurate understanding. Thank you.

 

I wouldn't say I "don't care".... In fact, I wish there was a way for someone, the graders, you, me, the next guy... to know for sure if something was NT, or AT...(which is kind of a problem since the very definition is a matter of personal opinion). being able to tell for sure without doubt isn't always possible... (no matter what anyone says). To me, its something where PCGS and NGC both have incentives to "do their best" which I think they do. I also think it would be unrealistic to expect them to never ever make mistakes...

 

Now, to the next part of the question, I also do not put "fault" anywhere..... It is a common date coin that is toned... probably at the hands of someone. Yeah, the graders let it slip through apparently... There is a market for it regardless, and I don't see that aspect going away anytime soon. For anyone/everyone who is losing sleep over this "non issue", I say get over it.... lets discuss some of the more important issues of the hobby right now, things that matter.....

For the guy who is "only trying to protect others" Well.. actually, I don't even know what to say to that.

 

I came into this hobby very recently, and my perspective is that its all "opinion" based... its all subjective.... I don't expect everyone to agree with my "opinion", but I am constantly perplexed at how many guys in this hobby allow their opinions to become the "end all be all"... at least in their own minds anyways.... It's like, when do you wake up and have this idea that your thoughts/feelings/opinions are FACTS... and that everyone else should accept them? How does that happen?

 

 

I care, just in a different way.

 

 

 

[TonerGuy]

Is authentication an issue ?

 

There is a market for fake coins. Therefore we shouldnt care if PCGS or NGC miss a fake Morgan and slab it ? Even if its a common date coin...

 

There's a market for Hobo Nickels. Should PCGS and NGC slab Hobo Nickels ?

 

There's just about a market for anything, however I dont think everything should be slabbed.

 

And if the TPGs turn a blind eye to AT coins you have to ask why they did it and then the next question naturally would be - would they not turn a blind eye to puttied gold, lasered coins or fake coins ?

 

The coins listed here arent a matter of opinion when it comes to whether the toning is AT or NT or even MA.

 

Its a slippery slope.

[RWB]

A purposely altered coin is no more authentic than a Colorado counterfeit or a carved coin -- they purport to be something which they are not.

[MarkFeld]

Is authentication an issue ?

 

There is a market for fake coins. Therefore we shouldnt care if PCGS or NGC miss a fake Morgan and slab it ? Even if its a common date coin...

 

There's a market for Hobo Nickels. Should PCGS and NGC slab Hobo Nickels ?

 

There's just about a market for anything, however I dont think everything should be slabbed.

 

And if the TPGs turn a blind eye to AT coins you have to ask why they did it and then the next question naturally would be - would they not turn a blind eye to puttied gold, lasered coins or fake coins ?

 

The coins listed here arent a matter of opinion when it comes to whether the toning is AT or NT or even MA.

 

Its a slippery slope.

 

The coins ARE "a matter of opinion when it comes to whether the toning is AT or NT or even MA".

 

The only way that AT or NT is not a matter of opinion is if 1) there is universal agreement on a definition of AT/NT and 2) the person assessing the coin knows its entire history. Currently, there is no such universal agreement and rarely does the person assessing the coin know its entire history.

 

Regarding MA - if a grading company grades a coin without netting it due to questionable/artificial color, it is their opinion that the coin is MA.

 

You and one or more other posters appear to be trying to substitute your opinions for those of the grading company's, but implying that your opinions are instead, factual determinations.

[AHFreak]

The coins listed here arent a matter of opinion when it comes to whether the toning is AT or NT or even MA.

 

Its a slippery slope.

 

To be clear, I am not saying I have an opinion either way on the coins listed here, but I do not believe one can take the "opinion" out of it, just cause majority of "opinions" on the issue are one way or another... that does not necessarily lead to an opinion becoming a fact.

 

Out of curiosity, have you read, Coin Chemistry?

 

again, not saying that I am clarifying one way or another... just pointing out that I disagree with turning an opinion into a fact regardless of the reasons.

 

 

On all the other stuff, that is for a different day. I just wish everyone would simply allow everyone else to worry about themselves, pursue what they like, protect themselves, etc... If someone doesn't like it, don't participate/buy/or otherwise worry about it..

 

For everyone who is "protecting" the best interest or whatever,( in their own mind anyways), I suggest that we "protect" by educating.... it is a crazy suggestion I know.. but maybe we could just try it out.

 

 

[19Lyds]

BTW - yes 19Lyds - that was the ASE I was referring to. Thank you for posting it.

I thought I had read a post ATS stating that this particular coin had been downgraded to AT but, for the life of me, I cannot seem to locate it.

 

Regardless.

[TonerGuy]

Is authentication an issue ?

 

There is a market for fake coins. Therefore we shouldnt care if PCGS or NGC miss a fake Morgan and slab it ? Even if its a common date coin...

 

There's a market for Hobo Nickels. Should PCGS and NGC slab Hobo Nickels ?

 

There's just about a market for anything, however I dont think everything should be slabbed.

 

And if the TPGs turn a blind eye to AT coins you have to ask why they did it and then the next question naturally would be - would they not turn a blind eye to puttied gold, lasered coins or fake coins ?

 

The coins listed here arent a matter of opinion when it comes to whether the toning is AT or NT or even MA.

 

Its a slippery slope.

 

The coins ARE "a matter of opinion when it comes to whether the toning is AT or NT or even MA".

 

The only way that AT or NT is not a matter of opinion is if 1) there is universal agreement on a definition of AT/NT and 2) the person assessing the coin knows its entire history. Currently, there is no such universal agreement and rarely does the person assessing the coin know its entire history.

 

Regarding MA - if a grading company grades a coin without netting it due to questionable/artificial color, it is their opinion that the coin is MA.

 

You and one or more other posters appear to be trying to substitute your opinions for those of the grading company's, but implying that your opinions are instead, factual determinations.

 

Everything is a matter of opinion, even authentication, to varying degrees. I had several silver dollar "experts" during a LB show look at a 21 Peace $ I owned. A few said it was a proof. Others said it was struck from proof dies. Who's right who's wrong ? No one knows for sure since none of us were there when the coin was struck.

 

My comments were made as to the OP's quarter and the toned ASE posted by 19Lyds, nothing more.

 

Sure there are coins when it comes to toning that are difficult to judge. These just don't happen to be two of them.

 

If you would like to state that your opinion is that you believe they could likely be NT, please do so. If you don't or you won't then you obviously have your own doubts. My doubts are just much stronger than yours based on my experience with modern toners.

 

My point is even when TPGs appear to make obvious mistakes it undermines their credibility.

 

When I submit a toned coin for grading I am paying for someone's opinion that should be vastly superior to mine. And when I purchase a graded toned coin Im buying a warranty and a guaranty of the market acceptability of the toning and the stability of the toning.

 

Coins like the two posted here erode that.

[TonerGuy]

BTW - yes 19Lyds - that was the ASE I was referring to. Thank you for posting it.

I thought I had read a post ATS stating that this particular coin had been downgraded to AT but, for the life of me, I cannot seem to locate it.

 

Regardless.

 

I believe you are correct. Thus since PCGS now thinks the coin is AT it MUST be considered factual.

[newprepper]

Regarding MA - if a grading company grades a coin without netting it due to questionable/artificial color, it is their opinion that the coin is MA.

 

Trying to understand your point Mark, the is graded on technical points, (strike, wear, etc) then are you saying that the points could change due to toning? Thanks

[MarkFeld]

Regarding MA - if a grading company grades a coin without netting it due to questionable/artificial color, it is their opinion that the coin is MA.

 

Trying to understand your point Mark, the is graded on technical points, (strike, wear, etc) then are you saying that the points could change due to toning? Thanks

 

No. I was just stating that by assigning a numerical grade (and not noting questionable or artificial toning on the grading label), in essence, the grading company has issued its opinion that the coin is "market acceptable" (MA).

 

My post was in response to and disagreement with TonerGuy's post: "The coins listed here arent a matter of opinion when it comes to whether the toning is AT or NT or even MA.

 

[dimefreak]

BTW - yes 19Lyds - that was the ASE I was referring to. Thank you for posting it.

I thought I had read a post ATS stating that this particular coin had been downgraded to AT but, for the life of me, I cannot seem to locate it.

 

Regardless.

 

 

Nope Braddock lost a bet and busted it out!

[newprepper]

Thanks for the clarification Mark

[RWB]

Does "MA" = "market acceptable" = "lowering of standards" ?

[jom]

BTW - yes 19Lyds - that was the ASE I was referring to. Thank you for posting it.

I thought I had read a post ATS stating that this particular coin had been downgraded to AT but, for the life of me, I cannot seem to locate it.

 

Regardless.

 

I believe you are correct. Thus since PCGS now thinks the coin is AT it MUST be considered factual.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "factual". If PCGS later rejected the coin then all that says is PCGS feels (ie in their opinion) that it was NOT MA.

 

jom

[jom]

Does "MA" = "market acceptable" = "lowering of standards" ?

 

Not necessarily. They've just came to the conclusion that they can't say what is AT or NT since the definition can't be agreed upon. That's the way I see it anyhow.....

 

jom

[Conder101]

Thus since PCGS now thinks the coin is AT it MUST be considered factual.

Just as when they thought ti was NT that was factual. So it must be both NT and AT, it just switches back and forth.

[Afterword]

"The only way that AT or NT is not a matter of opinion is if 1) there is universal agreement on a definition of AT/NT and 2) the person assessing the coin knows its entire history. Currently, there is no such universal agreement and rarely does the person assessing the coin know its entire history."

 

 

 

 

 

Right.

 

[TonerGuy]

"The only way that AT or NT is not a matter of opinion is if 1) there is universal agreement on a definition of AT/NT and 2) the person assessing the coin knows its entire history. Currently, there is no such universal agreement and rarely does the person assessing the coin know its entire history."

 

 

 

 

 

Right.

 

Does no one see that this applies to every aspect of what PCGS and NGC does ?

 

So why is toning any different ?

 

There is no factual determination of authentication. Its just an opinion.

 

If the OP had posted a fake coin in a PCGS slab I doubt if the tone (no pun intended) would be the same. People would be calling for PCGS to take the coin "off the market" and buy back the coin...

 

And Mark stop avoiding my question and hiding behind what PCGS did...

 

Do you think the coin is AT, NT or MA ? I would like to know your expert opinion...

[MarkFeld]

"The only way that AT or NT is not a matter of opinion is if 1) there is universal agreement on a definition of AT/NT and 2) the person assessing the coin knows its entire history. Currently, there is no such universal agreement and rarely does the person assessing the coin know its entire history."

 

 

 

 

 

Right.

 

Does no one see that this applies to every aspect of what PCGS and NGC does ?

 

So why is toning any different ?

 

There is no factual determination of authentication. Its just an opinion.

 

If the OP had posted a fake coin in a PCGS slab I doubt if the tone (no pun intended) would be the same. People would be calling for PCGS to take the coin "off the market" and buy back the coin...

 

And Mark stop avoiding my question and hiding behind what PCGS did...

 

Do you think the coin is AT, NT or MA ? I would like to know your expert opinion...

 

Numerical grading and the determination of whether toning is AT/NT are not the same as the determination of authenticity.

 

I'm not avoiding your question or hiding behind anything. I don't even know which coin you're talking about. And I don't care enough to weed through the posts to find out.

[TonerGuy]

Numerical grading and the determination of whether toning is AT/NT are not the same as the determination of authenticity.

 

I'm not avoiding your question or hiding behind anything. I don't even know which coin you're talking about. And I don't care enough to weed through the posts to find out.

 

Wrong and your skills of avoidance are masterful. Thank you.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Numerical grading and the determination of whether toning is AT/NT are not the same as the determination of authenticity.

 

I'm not avoiding your question or hiding behind anything. I don't even know which coin you're talking about. And I don't care enough to weed through the posts to find out.

 

Wrong and your skills of avoidance are masterful. Thank you.

 

A question, please, and nothing to do with the somewhat at odds conversation above, or who is right or wrong.

 

2 persons are of equal uncorrected visual acuity; lets use 20/20.

2 people are equal in depth perception.

2 people are equal in color spectrum awareness.

2 people are equal in brilliance level identity.

2 people are equal in break-in-pattern awareness.

 

Explain one person identifying AT, and the other person identifying NT, when reviewing the same coin.

[jom]

Numerical grading and the determination of whether toning is AT/NT are not the same as the determination of authenticity.

 

I'm not avoiding your question or hiding behind anything. I don't even know which coin you're talking about. And I don't care enough to weed through the posts to find out.

 

Wrong and your skills of avoidance are masterful. Thank you.

 

Wrong what? Numerical grading and the determination of AT/NT are a matter of OPINION at best. Authentication of a coin is most cases can be based on FACTS.

 

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

jom

[newprepper]

experience, knowledge, opinion

[TonerGuy]

Wrong what? Numerical grading and the determination of AT/NT are a matter of OPINION at best. Authentication of a coin is most cases can be based on FACTS.

 

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

jom

 

Your operative word is CAN. Authentication can be based on FACTS. When its not based on facts its based on nothing more than an opinion - an expert opinion but an opinion none the less. No different than numerical grading or determining NT/AT toning patterns.

 

So at times, most times, authentication is just a matter of opinion as well.

 

How long does a grader spend on each coin ? Seconds ? Does anyone think that each coin that is graded is authenticated as well as graded ? Or do you think true authentication (which might require minutes to research (die markers) as opposed to seconds) is held for some coins that are more costly and rare ? Does anyone think that NCG and PCGS authenticate every MS65 Morgan they see ?

 

Matter of fact, for example, NGC wont even guaranty their authentication AT ALL, when it comes to Ancients.

 

Authenticity — NGC Ancients will only grade coins that it believes to be genuine. Authenticity and attribution represent the opinion of NGC Ancients and are not guaranteed, nor is any guarantee implied. Please see the NGC Ancients Coin Grading Guarantee for complete information. (emphasis added)

 

and more from NCG...

 

If NGC determines that an NGC-certified coin is not authentic, NGC may elect to purchase the coin from the submitter at NGC’s determination of current market value as provided above. (emphasis added)

 

Does anyone here believe that NGC and PCGS get it right 100% of the time when it comes to authenticity ?

 

I think that is the point of this thread. Just because its in a slab doesnt make it real or authentic or natural - whether its toning or not.

 

The OP posted a coin that, for the majority of people that collect, study and deal in toned coins, would leave little doubt was AT. He posted it in a sarcastic toned because it is just that ridiculous to think the coin is NT.

 

If the coin, instead of being toned, was a cheap Chinese fake in a real PCGS graded slab the posters to this thread would be up in arms. No different.

[TonerGuy]

By the way here is another coin from that batch... up for sale on EBay...

 

Just done in reverse... anyone see a pattern here ?

 

 

1995-S Roosevelt Dime PCGS Superb Gem PR-67DCAM... True MONSTER Toning, So NICE!

[19Lyds]

"The only way that AT or NT is not a matter of opinion is if 1) there is universal agreement on a definition of AT/NT and 2) the person assessing the coin knows its entire history. Currently, there is no such universal agreement and rarely does the person assessing the coin know its entire history."

 

 

 

 

 

Right.

Damn!

 

And here I always thought it was determined by a "flip of a coin!"

[dimefreak]

Nice catch Tonerguy! Mine is a larger coin, far more dramatic! And cost less! Score!

[TonerGuy]

A question, please, and nothing to do with the somewhat at odds conversation above, or who is right or wrong.

 

2 persons are of equal uncorrected visual acuity; lets use 20/20.

2 people are equal in depth perception.

2 people are equal in color spectrum awareness.

2 people are equal in brilliance level identity.

2 people are equal in break-in-pattern awareness.

 

Explain one person identifying AT, and the other person identifying NT, when reviewing the same coin.

 

See the answer below...

 

Nice catch Tonerguy! Mine is a larger coin, far more dramatic! And cost less! Score!

 

Thats why I also posted the first blue/gold coin. It just wasnt as obvious.

 

Its sad to say but I spend a couple of hours every day looking at toned coins... from EBay to Great Collections to Heritage to dealers' websites. Over the past 15 years I would say it totals 5,000 to 10,000 hours of my life that I will never get back. But I enjoy it.

 

When you look that much you start to notice obvious patterns - like the dealer we discussed privately with a distinct "look" to his coins. Each coin doctor (especially toning specialist) has a signature "look" to their coins. Its like art, each artist is unique and has certain colors on their palette.

 

You just have to see enough of each pattern to recognize it.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

A question, please, and nothing to do with the somewhat at odds conversation above, or who is right or wrong.

 

2 persons are of equal uncorrected visual acuity; lets use 20/20.

2 people are equal in depth perception.

2 people are equal in color spectrum awareness.

2 people are equal in brilliance level identity.

2 people are equal in break-in-pattern awareness.

 

Explain one person identifying AT, and the other person identifying NT, when reviewing the same coin.

 

See the answer below...

 

Nice catch Tonerguy! Mine is a larger coin, far more dramatic! And cost less! Score!

 

Thats why I also posted the first blue/gold coin. It just wasnt as obvious.

 

Its sad to say but I spend a couple of hours every day looking at toned coins... from EBay to Great Collections to Heritage to dealers' websites. Over the past 15 years I would say it totals 5,000 to 10,000 hours of my life that I will never get back. But I enjoy it.

 

When you look that much you start to notice obvious patterns - like the dealer we discussed privately with a distinct "look" to his coins. Each coin doctor (especially toning specialist) has a signature "look" to their coins. Its like art, each artist is unique and has certain colors on their palette.

 

You just have to see enough of each pattern to recognize it.

 

This seems to agree with Mr. Feld.

[TonerGuy]

This seems to agree with Mr. Feld.

 

Okay I will take the bait...

 

He said authentication is based on fact and numerical grading and toning was an opinion.

 

I said everything a TPG does is based on opinion. (with one caveat - scientifically testing the metal content of a particular coin with a machine) When a human is involved in a decision about a coin its an opinion - even authentication.

 

How does my answer change that ?