Your little rules when submitting

[Curry]

When you guys decide to submit some coins in how do you decide what to send in? Does your decision depend on value in a certain grade, color, or just plain you want to send those certain coins in. Let me know

 

Thanks

[RWB]

When I submit a coin for authentication and grading the following is my simpleton process:

 

1. Am I unsure of authenticity?

2. Am I planning to sell or trade the coin?

3. Will this increase the market value of the coin?

 

Notice that two of the three are about the money end of selling or trading. I already know the grade of the coin, but then I learned how to grade coins from Frank Katen.

 

Authenticity is a technical area where experts at NGC have the advantage over any collector or dealer, so that is always #1 on my list.

[TonerGuy]

Color, color, color - in that order.

 

The more wild the color the more necessary the need for the plastic. A wildly toned raw coin brings some premium but as soon as its in plastic prices can go through the roof. See my other thread about modern toners. If those coins were raw they might have commanded 1/10 of the final hammer price.

 

This of course doesnt apply to coins that commonly come toned and with common colors such as Morgans - you can usually sell those for a premium without a plastic wrapping.

 

So it really depends on what the color is like and what the actual coin is. If I have a toned Morgan and a toned SBA and both were equal in eye appeal and color I would send in the SBA first. The Morgan will sell and SBA wont without grading.

[RWB]

What you are saying, TonerGuy, is that authentication is #1 for you, also.

[TonerGuy]

What you are saying, TonerGuy, is that authentication is #1 for you, also.

 

Of the toning - sort of. But its more like a seal of approval. A TPG can authenticate a coin with 100% certainty. They can only give an opinion as to the color but most of us that like toners take NGC & PCGS's approval as authentication.

 

Some newbs still care if the color is really NT (natural toning). After awhile you learn that NT means nothing and MA (market acceptance) means everything. AT coins that have gained MA still sell for huge premiums (see the thread about the 314XXX Leather Hoard Peace $).

 

So once a coin has received its sell of approval from NGC or PCGS the value increases and the fluidity is there.

[AHFreak]

Good question, In my own mind- I asses a coin based on the same standards of grading that the 3PG's use to grade, and come up with the grade that I believe the coin to be..... Based on knowledge about that particular coin in said holder/grade.... If it makes sense to grade investment-wise, then I send it... if not, then I do not.

 

I also enjoy getting toners slabbed. There is a certain gratification from finding a toned coin raw for little premium -if any, and getting it put into a 3rd party slab.

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Potential value added vs. cost of submission.

 

Among other considerations, the former might include a reasonable expectation of grade and/or designation or merely the authentcation of a coin which might otherwise be questioned. The latter would include both grading and postage fees.

[coinman_23885]

Unless I'm doing it for sentimental reasons, the answer is always $$$.

[TonerGuy]

 

I also enjoy getting toners slabbed. There is a certain gratification from finding a toned coin raw for little premium -if any, and getting it put into a 3rd party slab.

 

 

 

Agreed. Anyone can buy/sell graded toners. The real skill comes in choosing MA coins that are selling for little to no premium raw and getting them into slabs. Thats were the profit margin is huge.

 

And when you can do it consistently thats when you realize that you know what you are doing.

[Coinbuf]

 

I also enjoy getting toners slabbed. There is a certain gratification from finding a toned coin raw for little premium -if any, and getting it put into a 3rd party slab.

 

 

 

Agreed. Anyone can buy/sell graded toners. The real skill comes in choosing MA coins that are selling for little to no premium raw and getting them into slabs. Thats were the profit margin is huge.

 

And when you can do it consistently thats when you realize that you know what you are doing.

 

 

So you sleep well knowing that your selling coins that could have been altered for profits? Just because a coin is in a TPG holder does not mean that it could not have been worked on. I know this for a fact, MA can (not always) and does at times = doctored, altered, accelerated, etc...

[MarkFeld]

 

I also enjoy getting toners slabbed. There is a certain gratification from finding a toned coin raw for little premium -if any, and getting it put into a 3rd party slab.

 

 

 

Agreed. Anyone can buy/sell graded toners. The real skill comes in choosing MA coins that are selling for little to no premium raw and getting them into slabs. Thats were the profit margin is huge.

 

And when you can do it consistently thats when you realize that you know what you are doing.

 

 

So you sleep well knowing that your selling coins that have been altered for profits?

 

I saw no mention of knowledge of coins having been altered.

[AHFreak]

 

I also enjoy getting toners slabbed. There is a certain gratification from finding a toned coin raw for little premium -if any, and getting it put into a 3rd party slab.

 

 

 

Agreed. Anyone can buy/sell graded toners. The real skill comes in choosing MA coins that are selling for little to no premium raw and getting them into slabs. Thats were the profit margin is huge.

 

And when you can do it consistently thats when you realize that you know what you are doing.

 

 

So you sleep well knowing that your selling coins that have been altered for profits?

 

He probably isn't sleeping quite as good as the buyer of said coin... but I'll bet its close....

[AHFreak]

being one who has found himself on both ends of this type of deal, I know how it makes me sleep when I find that certified rainbow toner that I have been searching for to add to my collection.... like a baby my friend...

 

should a seller of such a coin have trouble sleeping? Should seller be ashamed for making a profit by providing a happy collector with exactly what he/she is/has been searching for in a toned coin??? At a price that buyer feels is fair and justifyable?

 

seriously coinbuf, I don't get it...

 

It makes me wonder if you were just in the mood to go trollin...

[Coinbuf]

 

I also enjoy getting toners slabbed. There is a certain gratification from finding a toned coin raw for little premium -if any, and getting it put into a 3rd party slab.

 

 

 

Agreed. Anyone can buy/sell graded toners. The real skill comes in choosing MA coins that are selling for little to no premium raw and getting them into slabs. Thats were the profit margin is huge.

 

And when you can do it consistently thats when you realize that you know what you are doing.

 

 

So you sleep well knowing that your selling coins that have been altered for profits?

 

I saw no mention of knowledge of coins having been altered.

 

Fair enough post changed to expand on my feelings about this MA subject.

[Coinbuf]

being one who has found himself on both ends of this type of deal, I know how it makes me sleep when I find that certified rainbow toner that I have been searching for to add to my collection.... like a baby my friend...

 

should a seller of such a coin have trouble sleeping? Should seller be ashamed for making a profit by providing a happy collector with exactly what he/she is/has been searching for in a toned coin??? At a price that buyer feels is fair and justifyable?

 

seriously coinbuf, I don't get it...

 

It makes me wonder if you were just in the mood to go trollin...

 

Think what you want, many people only want happy talk and do not do well with someone like myself that is not so hung up about being PC. You and everyone else are free to spend your monies on whatever you desire, no problem with that from me, but don't get your panties in a bunch because I don't happen to love coins that have been slabbed and deemed MA.

 

Should a seller be ashamed, well that depends on what knowledge and motives the seller has. If a seller is taking coins that may have been changed to enhance or add color and submitting those in hopes of getting some through then yes he/she should be ashamed. When a seller uses the term "MA" not original or simply toned then yes I have to wonder do they know something about the coin??

 

Overall I dislike the use of MA, the exception to that is when it's applied to very old or very rare coins where few examples are left, say less than 75. In those cases I understand where coins with scratches or dings, digs, environmental damage, even tooling and other doctoring may be considered as MA due to the low population/high demand. But when the term is applied to common as dirt MS60-62 Morgans, Lincolns, Washes, etc.. I see that as an acceptance of less than it should be. That of course is just my own opinion.

 

And lets examine this from the TPG standpoint, what is the exposure to the TPG when slabbing low value but questionable coins? Actually very little, take the Lincoln from the other thread, that coin is black and has what I would call environmental damage and should not have been slabbed (imo). So lets say that in ten years time the buyer of that coin takes it out of the SDB and it's then deemed to be damaged. What is the cost to the TPG? $5-$10 dollars whatever the guide is for BN proof copper. What is the cost to the buyer? $300-$400 dollars or more. My point is that the TPG has a very minimal risk when slabbing this coin so it's easier for low value marginal/questionable material to slip through, it's the buyer that assumes a much greater risk.

 

And if I were a coin doctor that is just the material I would be working on because it flies under the radar most of the time and has a huge upside for those only worried abut a TPG approvial.

[AHFreak]

 

So you sleep well knowing that your selling coins that could have been altered for profits? Just because a coin is in a TPG holder does not mean that it could not have been worked on. I know this for a fact, MA can (not always) and does at times = doctored, altered, accelerated, etc...

 

 

 

 

 

do you even know what "MA" means? Also, are you saying that a toned coin that the 3PG sees fit to certify has a higher percent chance at being "doctored, altered, accelerated, etc.... than the same certified coin that isn't toned??? If so, id be interested in how you come up with such a baseless claim.... Before you get to excited, please remember we are talking about "modern" coins here buddy..... MODERN coins.

 

maybe Im crazy, or being naïve again, but when I picture a "coin doctor" who is skilled enough to get their work past the graders, I have a very very very very, impossible time believing they applying that skill on MODERN coins. Seems like there would be better money elsewhere...

 

 

 

 

[AHFreak]

coinbuf I don't think you know what "MA" means.... you should look into that.

 

Then, I want you to show me a slab that actually says, "MA" on it...

[Coinbuf]

coinbuf I don't think you know what "MA" means.... you should look into that.

 

Then, I want you to show me a slab that actually says, "MA" on it...

 

Yes I know what it means, your comments show that you clearly do not know what it refers to because if you did you would know that slabs are not labeled MA. It seems that you are the one with lots to learn.

[TonerGuy]

So you sleep well knowing that your selling coins that could have been altered for profits? Just because a coin is in a TPG holder does not mean that it could not have been worked on. I know this for a fact, MA can (not always) and does at times = doctored, altered, accelerated, etc...

 

First, Im not a seller of coins. Just because I mentioned profit doesnt mean I am actively selling coins. But if I buy a $3 modern toner from a dealer that doesnt know the value and I get that coin slabbed and it is now worth $60-$100 to me that is unrealized profit but profit none-the-less.

 

And lets be honest here, most of the coins that in plastic slabs have been worked on at some point. In my opinion dipping is doctoring. How many coins have been dipped ?

 

And how many dipped coins reside in PCGS or NGC plastic ? A whole hell of a lot.

 

Dipped coins are doctored MA coins in my opinion. They are MA in the TPGs' opinions as well. So yes you are correct there are MA doctored coins in TPG holders. I dont see any dealers losing sleep over selling blast white 1878 Morgans.

 

Are there toned AT coins in PCGS and NGC plastic absolutely. Can I tell you exactly which are AT and which are NT. No. Can I tell you with some percentage of accuracy - yes. So there is no way I can say with 100% certainty that a particular coins is AT. Therefore I cannot guaranty toning, nor can PCGS or NGC. But am I allowed to rely on their opinion? Sure - why not.

 

And if by some chance I came across a coin I strongly suspected to be AT in NGC or PCGS plastic - I would not sell it. I would keep it as a learning tool.

 

 

[dimefreak]

I buy coins from salt lake city. Raw. I've yet to have one rejected. But I'll never sell one. :-)

[Raisethis2]

Oddly, I just completed 2 submissions which will be in the morning mail. I'm shipping a total is 13 Morgans. 5 are EarlyBird (signed up for another year of Collector Society learnin) and 8 are Economy.

 

I like to ship coins I'm certain are above MS 63 and strive for MS 65 or greater. My thing is dollars so I'm getting pretty good at grading them. I'm in them to the point where MS 64's still won't equal a net loss. I do however try to ensure that I buy raw coins that are profitable to pay for themselves, grading and shipping fees and when the dust settles there's something that goes into my "keep" pile.

 

Selling graded coins is wayyyyyyyy easier than trying to convince someone a given coin is actually an MS 65. Great pictures still won't get the job done with the E-Bay bottomfeeders.

[TonerGuy]

I buy coins from salt lake city. Raw. I've yet to have one rejected. But I'll never sell one. :-)

 

Im pretty sure I know who you are talking about...

 

You get his coins into slabs ?

 

I have one of his coins. I use to see them all slabbed by PCGS and now Im seeing them up on EBay as raw coins. So I assumed that he had run out of luck with PCGS. Ive never seen any of his coins in NGC plastic though.

 

 

 

[Coinbuf]

So you sleep well knowing that your selling coins that could have been altered for profits? Just because a coin is in a TPG holder does not mean that it could not have been worked on. I know this for a fact, MA can (not always) and does at times = doctored, altered, accelerated, etc...

 

First, Im not a seller of coins. Just because I mentioned profit doesnt mean I am actively selling coins. But if I buy a $3 modern toner from a dealer that doesnt know the value and I get that coin slabbed and it is now worth $60-$100 to me that is unrealized profit but profit none-the-less.

 

And lets be honest here, most of the coins that in plastic slabs have been worked on at some point. In my opinion dipping is doctoring. How many coins have been dipped ?

 

And how many dipped coins reside in PCGS or NGC plastic ? A whole hell of a lot.

 

Dipped coins are doctored MA coins in my opinion. They are MA in the TPGs' opinions as well. So yes you are correct there are MA doctored coins in TPG holders. I dont see any dealers losing sleep over selling blast white 1878 Morgans.

 

Are there toned AT coins in PCGS and NGC plastic absolutely. Can I tell you exactly which are AT and which are NT. No. Can I tell you with some percentage of accuracy - yes. So there is no way I can say with 100% certainty that a particular coins is AT. Therefore I cannot guaranty toning, nor can PCGS or NGC. But am I allowed to rely on their opinion? Sure - why not.

 

And if by some chance I came across a coin I strongly suspected to be AT in NGC or PCGS plastic - I would not sell it. I would keep it as a learning tool.

 

 

Thanks for the reply, I'm glad that you were able to answer my question without taking it personly like AHFreak did; although I'm somewhat puzzled as to why he was in such a twist over something that had nothing to do with him.