PCGS grades Sandpaper "Coin" MS 64...

[$ilverHawk]

I don't think it should have red'd a numerical grade. Would I consider it an 'error COIN'?? No---Maybe a 'mint produced error' but NOT a coin. Would I ever be interested in it?? Not in a million years and certainly not at that price level. If I were PCGS; I would kindly return it to it's owner. Alas, they chose to grade it. Their call not mine...... :shrug:

 

Happy Birthday Walkerfan. I would call the piece "True Grit"

 

(thumbs u

[MarkFeld]

Obviously it was not intended to get out, but it did. As a U.S. Mint-struck item it is collectible and certifiable. If you don't like it, don't buy it!

 

I dont have a huge issue with it being certified however graded... - Please continue and explain how its an MS64 as compared to a 63 or 65. And do you think it will CAC ?

 

While I'm not sure your question was sincere...Simply put, it could be an MS64 as compared to a 63 or a 65, based on surface preservation/flaws. For all we know, the grading might be easier than it is for a regular coin, as there might be fewer variables to consider.

 

Mark, you have offered various insights to me as well as other posters when you have found issues regrading grading of many different coins. I have learned quite a lot from your opinions.

 

However, I don't understand your defense of what most generously be called this small bit of exonumia.

 

Please explain why you regard the OPs example as a coin.

 

Carl

 

Carl, I don't consider it a coin. But that, alone, doesn't cause me to think it can't or shouldn't be graded.

[CaptHenway]

If a washer falls off of the coin press and gets struck between the dies, that is certifiable and probably gradable based upon what happened to it after the strike.

 

As to the sandpaper disc, it is or was a tool used at the Mint to refinish dies and give them a finely textured surface. As I said ATS, when the dies got a bit too worn and shiny, sort of like the seat of my blue serge pants, the press operator would place a sandpaper disc face down on the lower die, place a planchet atop that, and place another sandpaper disc atop the planchet, face up. The press would cycle and strike the sand-wich and the sandpaper grit would lightly texture the steel dies.

 

Obviously it was not intended to get out, but it did. As a U.S. Mint-struck item it is collectible and certifiable. If you don't like it, don't buy it!

 

Don't care about the possible explanation of how a piece of sandpaper was embossed. Probably accurate. That is all it is, an embossed piece of sandpaper. Exactly who says a US mint-struck piece of sandpaper is collectible and certifiable?? Please don't tell me that any exonumia product of the US mint has a claim to being a minted coin. No metal, no obverse and reverse, just an impression of an obverse image on sandpaper. Think about your argument.

 

Carl

 

 

"As a U. S. Mint-struck item it is collectible. If you don't like it don't buy it!" Says who???

 

Carl

 

Have a nice day!

[TonerGuy]

Here's a question for those collectors (not dealers) that are knowledgeable about PCGS policies...

 

Can anyone share a link on the PCGS website where it definitely states that they will even authenticate such a "piece" of mint exonumia ?

 

Does anyone know of any collectors (again not dealers) that have submitted such a "piece" of mint exonumia or other exonumia and had it authenticated by PCGS ?

 

Coindude mentioned that Fred Weinberg use to own the "piece" being discussed and while I have no reason to suspect Mr. Weinberg as not being 100% honest, ethical and upstanding (I have met and discussed coins with him on several occasions and he is a true gentleman) what if this "piece" was not owned by a dealer of such reputation or even a collector ? Would PCGS authenticate and grade it in the same fashion ?

 

While I am not expert on the procedures of minting coins, I have to say to recreate such a "piece" would be rather easy with the correct tools and presses.

 

So would PCGS graded a collector's piece like this ? Or do you think it would need to come with a "story" to back up its authenticity ?

 

And if your answer is "no PCGS wouldnt grade that if it came from a collector" then doesnt that call certain policies ATS into question ?

[coinman_23885]

I have seen scraps of coinage metals (apparently jammed in the presses) encapsulated by PCGS.

[messydesk]

There are probably also struck scraps of a coining press in holders somewhere.

[MJ]

At the end of the day the grade on something like this doesn't matter. It just doesn't. It is what it is. Certified and protected is what I would want on that piece, Grade, ………….who cares.

 

MJ

[brg5658]

At the end of the day the grade on something like this doesn't matter. It just doesn't. It is what it is. Certified and protected is what I would want on that piece, Grade, ………….who cares.

 

MJ

 

I agree with you. Then, why on earth would PCGS do the laughable thing of assigning it a numeric grade?

 

That's what we're asking here -- why would PCGS assign a piece of sand paper a numeric grade? I have yet to hear a good answer, other than the normal "if PCGS did it, then it must be defensible" argument.

[brg5658]

Here's a question for those collectors (not dealers) that are knowledgeable about PCGS policies...

 

Can anyone share a link on the PCGS website where it definitely states that they will even authenticate such a "piece" of mint exonumia ?

 

Does anyone know of any collectors (again not dealers) that have submitted such a "piece" of mint exonumia or other exonumia and had it authenticated by PCGS ?

 

Coindude mentioned that Fred Weinberg use to own the "piece" being discussed and while I have no reason to suspect Mr. Weinberg as not being 100% honest, ethical and upstanding (I have met and discussed coins with him on several occasions and he is a true gentleman) what if this "piece" was not owned by a dealer of such reputation or even a collector ? Would PCGS authenticate and grade it in the same fashion ?

 

While I am not expert on the procedures of minting coins, I have to say to recreate such a "piece" would be rather easy with the correct tools and presses.

 

So would PCGS graded a collector's piece like this ? Or do you think it would need to come with a "story" to back up its authenticity ?

 

And if your answer is "no PCGS wouldnt grade that if it came from a collector" then doesnt that call certain policies ATS into question ?

 

I think your points / questions are all salient.

 

And, IMO, to get something like this in plastic you have to be "special" in some way -- essentially an insider. The coin dealer "omerta-culture" is a scary thing. I don't know half of the shady business that goes on, but what I do know is disturbing to say the least. Coin dealers are among the last-standing of the "good ol' boys" network in the USA.

[MJ]

At the end of the day the grade on something like this doesn't matter. It just doesn't. It is what it is. Certified and protected is what I would want on that piece, Grade, ………….who cares.

 

MJ

 

I agree with you. Then, why on earth would PCGS do the laughable thing of assigning it a numeric grade?

 

That's what we're asking here -- why would PCGS assign a piece of sand paper a numeric grade? I have yet to hear a good answer, other than the normal "if PCGS did it, then it must be defensible" argument.

 

Your PCGS pebble in your shoe is obvious If this bothers you that much call and ask for an explanation. I think you would rather just take pot shots. In the universe of millions of graded coins one can always find outliers. Carry on………

 

MJ

[$ilverHawk]

If a washer falls off of the coin press and gets struck between the dies, that is certifiable and probably gradable based upon what happened to it after the strike.

 

As to the sandpaper disc, it is or was a tool used at the Mint to refinish dies and give them a finely textured surface. As I said ATS, when the dies got a bit too worn and shiny, sort of like the seat of my blue serge pants, the press operator would place a sandpaper disc face down on the lower die, place a planchet atop that, and place another sandpaper disc atop the planchet, face up. The press would cycle and strike the sand-wich and the sandpaper grit would lightly texture the steel dies.

 

Obviously it was not intended to get out, but it did. As a U.S. Mint-struck item it is collectible and certifiable. If you don't like it, don't buy it!

 

Don't care about the possible explanation of how a piece of sandpaper was embossed. Probably accurate. That is all it is, an embossed piece of sandpaper. Exactly who says a US mint-struck piece of sandpaper is collectible and certifiable?? Please don't tell me that any exonumia product of the US mint has a claim to being a minted coin. No metal, no obverse and reverse, just an impression of an obverse image on sandpaper. Think about your argument.

 

Carl

 

 

"As a U. S. Mint-struck item it is collectible. If you don't like it don't buy it!" Says who???

 

Carl

 

Have a nice day!

 

And you have a nice day too!!

 

Carl

[messydesk]

That's what we're asking here -- why would PCGS assign a piece of sand paper a numeric grade? I have yet to hear a good answer, other than the normal "if PCGS did it, then it must be defensible" argument.

The reason PCGS would assign a grade to this is to differentiate it from other similar specimens that may be judged by the marketplace as superior or inferior. If it's the first such piece ever graded, it provides a basis for comparisons. That is why they would assign a grade. One could similarly ask why the first thing that was graded was graded.

 

Why would they assign the grade of MS64 is more a question of how they would (or might) assign a grade, which I answered yesterday morning.

[WoodenJefferson]

Here's the ~other~ one...it still has the peel off paper on the back.

 

I think this sanding disc has better luster.

[TonerGuy]

I think your points / questions are all salient.

 

And, IMO, to get something like this in plastic you have to be "special" in some way -- essentially an insider. The coin dealer "omerta-culture" is a scary thing. I don't know half of the shady business that goes on, but what I do know is disturbing to say the least. Coin dealers are among the last-standing of the "good ol' boys" network in the USA.

 

That is my biggest issue with this. As you can surmise, all of the PCGS apologists & insiders will stand behind PCGS's decision to assign a numerical grade. I just dont understand it and I still havent read a reasonable explanation as to why but perhaps someone will post one eventually.

 

In my humble and less educated opinion, the real problem for me is the favoritism shown in authenticating sandpaper - IF in fact it was authenticated and graded for a well liked dealer - AND would not be authenticated and graded for any other dealer or for a collector.

 

If I can drop off a piece of sandpaper at Long Beach and it will be graded and I can sell it for $11,000.00 I would have no qualms. But I suspect that if I submitted it for grading even as a "Show Rarity" ($250 +% of value) walk-through it would get rejected. If I am wrong and PCGS would do it - well more power to them and me.

 

But this would appear far too easy of a "piece" to fake. So if all it takes at PCGS is to "swear on the David Hall Bible" that you arent faking it what else does this apply to ? Toned coins ? Gold coins ? First strikes ? Is there not a certain level of trust that we as collector place on the plastic ?

 

Or is there a way to absolutely authentic a "piece" such as this ?

 

If there is I would really like to know...

[LogPotato]

Frankly, I can't understand why it's in a coin holder in the first place. As far as I am concerned, it's a neat conversation piece, but it doesn't deserve to be in a holder. Even if it was "stuck" to an original ASE. That's like certifying any old thread that could have been struck on a coin. Or a nice blob of grease.

 

But here's the catch, I am not on the hook for buying it. So it really doesn't matter. Sometimes it's best just to laugh and move on.

 

 

[CaptHenway]

Here's the ~other~ one...it still has the peel off paper on the back.

 

I think this sanding disc has better luster.

 

Thanks for the link!

[$ilverHawk]

I'm very disappointed with myself that I made several posts in this thread. It's a piece of sandpaper and not worthy of comment on a forum for coins. Funny, 5 pages of comments over a piece of sandpaper and whether a TPG should grade a piece of sandpaper. I'm laughing as I write these comments.

 

So, a TPG puts a piece of sandpaper in a coin holder, correction they do it twice, big deal. Don't know what the thought process of the TPG is, don't care. Any seasoned collector is well aware of attribution errors, grading issues, etc by TPG s. Please let this thread die.

 

Carl

[$ilverHawk]

That's what we're asking here -- why would PCGS assign a piece of sand paper a numeric grade? I have yet to hear a good answer, other than the normal "if PCGS did it, then it must be defensible" argument.

The reason PCGS would assign a grade to this is to differentiate it from other similar specimens that may be judged by the marketplace as superior or inferior. If it's the first such piece ever graded, it provides a basis for comparisons. That is why they would assign a grade. One could similarly ask why the first thing that was graded was graded.

 

Why would they assign the grade of MS64 is more a question of how they would (or might) assign a grade, which I answered yesterday morning.

 

John,

 

What marketplace? Is there an embossed sandpaper market place? I agree, why was the first "thing" graded? Damn, I did it again and commented on this thread, I need to go to rehab.

 

Carl

[messydesk]

That's what we're asking here -- why would PCGS assign a piece of sand paper a numeric grade? I have yet to hear a good answer, other than the normal "if PCGS did it, then it must be defensible" argument.

The reason PCGS would assign a grade to this is to differentiate it from other similar specimens that may be judged by the marketplace as superior or inferior. If it's the first such piece ever graded, it provides a basis for comparisons. That is why they would assign a grade. One could similarly ask why the first thing that was graded was graded.

 

Why would they assign the grade of MS64 is more a question of how they would (or might) assign a grade, which I answered yesterday morning.

 

John,

 

What marketplace? Is there an embossed sandpaper market place? I agree, why was the first "thing" graded? Damn, I did it again and commented on this thread, I need to go to rehab.

 

Carl

Yes, there is a marketplace. Granted, it's pretty thin, but an auction had bidders up over $10K for it. Having a third party authenticate it, most likely with the help of outside consultants, back up the authentication with cash money, and put it in a protective holder accepted by that marketplace is a Good Thing, regardless of whose initials are on it. The grade, as I said, is secondary and currently irrelevant, but would make a lot of sense in the context of more samples in differing states of preservation.

[$ilverHawk]

So a very small group of collectors are actually bidding on embossed sandpaper--amazing. God bless them. Absolutely no competition from me.

 

What do you think is the reasoning behind spending upwards of $10,000 on a TPG authentication of a piece of sandpaper?

 

The bidders should hope that US Mint employees are not aware of the premiums being paid for sandpaper struck ASE obverses. If US Mint employees do become aware of the prices being paid for embossed sandpaper, I predict that we can expect the "ASE sandpaper" market to be flooded with more examples.

 

Maybe even a MS65.

 

Carl

[messydesk]

What do you think is the reasoning behind spending upwards of $10,000 on a TPG authentication of a piece of sandpaper?

It's a rare item struck in a coining press at the mint along with a coin. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than paying stupid money for special labels in slabs based on when a warehouse guy loaded them on a truck.

 

Actually, if more of them slip out of the mint and are submitted to TPGs, eventually they'll be better able to establish grading standards that are more concrete than the theoretical grades that need to be assigned now, as the quality of these disks will vary. The other thing is, however, that obverse sandpaper disks will have the date on them, and the mint employees wouldn't be able to sneak out a 1986 if they tried. The increase in population would make them more mainstream as a whole, driving up demand for the currently rare dated pieces that are known.

[Treashunt]

certainly unique.

[CaptHenway]

What do you think is the reasoning behind spending upwards of $10,000 on a TPG authentication of a piece of sandpaper?

It's a rare item struck in a coining press at the mint along with a coin. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than paying stupid money for special labels in slabs based on when a warehouse guy loaded them on a truck.

 

Agreed.

[Conder101]

Having a third party authenticate it, most likely with the help of outside consultants,

This would probably be considered to be a "mint error", a struck through. So if they send it out to their mint error consultant that would be Fred Weinburg, a former owner of the piece.

[brg5658]

Having a third party authenticate it, most likely with the help of outside consultants,

This would probably be considered to be a "mint error", a struck through. So if they send it out to their mint error consultant that would be Fred Weinburg, a former owner of the piece.

 

No conflict of interest....I promise...

[orifdoc]

If I was a principal owner of PCGS and was bored, I think I would encapsulate a random piece of cardboard and assign it an MS75 grade just to sit back and watch the anticipated forum thread run up to 800 posts.

 

I find it slightly amusing that they assigned it a numerical grade, but of little significance regarding the item's value or importance.

 

Edit to correct rural backwoods English.

[Coindude]

Maybe the MS 64 means mostly sand 64 grit!

[messydesk]

Nope. To get the grit specified on the holder, you need to pay an additional $24 attribution fee.

[Coindude]

Nope. To get the grit specified on the holder, you need to pay an additional $24 attribution fee.

now that wouldn't shock me in the least!