Should this coin have straight graded?

[No+4Me]

I was looking at draped bust, small eagle dollars on eBay when I came across the following coin. There is very clearly an X scratched dead center on the bust. I realize that older classic coins are often given some leeway on circulation marks and so forth but was PCGS too lenient this time?

 

Draped Bust Dollar

[RWB]

A buyer would likely discount the coin under any circumstances. To me, the paper insert is irrelevant.

 

[MarkFeld]

If the marks are man-made, as opposed to mint-made, I agree with you.

[coinman_23885]

I don't like it, and wouldn't be a buyer at any price. I do not think it is market acceptable, and I think it should be in a details holder.

[Nutmeg Coin]

"X" marks the spot. If they had said "obverse damage" or "graffiti" how salable would the coin have been, I'm pretty sure ANACS and ICG would not have straight graded the coin?

[AHFreak]

This may be the silliest thing in the world to say, but I am just wondering, is it possible that the "x" in coin is raised, meaning that someone at the mint carved the "x" in a die, but then for one reason said die got used again??? It might be crazy long shot idea, but I could see the coin being straight graded if that was the case. Cause as far as just a coin with an "x" carved in it... hard to imagine that one being holdered... regardless of what coin we are talking about.

 

 

[No+4Me]

This may be the silliest thing in the world to say, but I am just wondering, is it possible that the "x" in coin is raised, meaning that someone at the mint carved the "x" in a die, but then for one reason said die got used again??? It might be crazy long shot idea, but I could see the coin being straight graded if that was the case. Cause as far as just a coin with an "x" carved in it... hard to imagine that one being holdered... regardless of what coin we are talking about.

 

 

If that were the case, then there would be other examples, it would be cited in Bowers' Encyclopedia, etc. It looks like deliberate post mint damage to me. I am simply confused as to how this could have gotten past 3(?) people in the grading room, particularly since this series is known for being tooled, smoothed, re engraved and otherwise fussed with.

[MarkFeld]

This may be the silliest thing in the world to say, but I am just wondering, is it possible that the "x" in coin is raised, meaning that someone at the mint carved the "x" in a die, but then for one reason said die got used again??? It might be crazy long shot idea, but I could see the coin being straight graded if that was the case. Cause as far as just a coin with an "x" carved in it... hard to imagine that one being holdered... regardless of what coin we are talking about.

 

 

If that were the case, then there would be other examples, it would be cited in Bowers' Encyclopedia, etc. It looks like deliberate post mint damage to me. I am simply confused as to how this could have gotten past 3(?) people in the grading room, particularly since this series is known for being tooled, smoothed, re engraved and otherwise fussed with.

 

They apparently found it to be acceptable, considering the series and the assigned grade. The very things you said the series is known for, can lead to more forgiving grading opinions. I don't agree with it, but it can be a fact of (grading) life.

[No+4Me]

This may be the silliest thing in the world to say, but I am just wondering, is it possible that the "x" in coin is raised, meaning that someone at the mint carved the "x" in a die, but then for one reason said die got used again??? It might be crazy long shot idea, but I could see the coin being straight graded if that was the case. Cause as far as just a coin with an "x" carved in it... hard to imagine that one being holdered... regardless of what coin we are talking about.

 

 

If that were the case, then there would be other examples, it would be cited in Bowers' Encyclopedia, etc. It looks like deliberate post mint damage to me. I am simply confused as to how this could have gotten past 3(?) people in the grading room, particularly since this series is known for being tooled, smoothed, re engraved and otherwise fussed with.

 

They apparently found it to be acceptable, considering the series and the assigned grade. The very things you said the series is known for, can lead to more forgiving grading opinions. I don't agree with it, but it can be a fact of (grading) life.

 

I see what you mean. I posted this as a cautionary piece, that sometimes coins that may slip over the margins of acceptability wind up in graded holders. Without the eBay "zoom" feature the X would have been hard to spot. Maybe it's time for me to try to cross this early quarter, which ANACS holdered as genuine-graffiti, since the graffiti is sooo obvious. (images are a couple of shades too dark, sorry).

[johnny9434]

A buyer would likely discount the coin under any circumstances. To me, the paper insert is irrelevant.

ill agree with that

[Nutmeg Coin]

Market acceptability vs. technical grading seems to prevail in coins with some problems, and these early coins seem to have far more graffiti on them like this, and for some reason "X"s were popular, who knows why? A light old cleaning, issues that would cause a later silver coin to be details graded. As someone else said there would likely be a pattern of similar marks if they originated at the mint. I don't think they would overlook such a mark on a gold coin though. One grading service considers the "L" and "E" counterstamps on Bust quarters to be "damage" and the other consider them worthy of straight grades. For many collectors any coin in a stigmatizing details holder is not something they would be interested in at any price near GS, maybe the next grade level down on a good day. GS bid for Draped Bust Small Eagle Fine: $3300/VF $4850. Money talks and really the grading services do not want unhappy customers, but what is the downside for them? A guarantee submission with someone down the line wanting a $$ refund?

[BillJones]

One of odd things about PCGS grading on Bust dollars and some other early coins is that they will net grade them. Years ago when I was a dealer I had a Bust dollar on consignment that had initials lightly carved into the obverse field. They did not jump out at you, but they were there. The coin had AU-50 sharpness and luster, but it had been dipped. PCGS graded it EF-40, and only explaination was that they net graded it. I don't agree with that, and I think that it violated their stated rules, but what can you do?

[No+4Me]

to me the coin looks properly (technically) graded at vf-20, although Bill or Mark might need to correct me on this. So, I think if it were to be netted it should be around F-15. I have seen plenty of these early dollars that graded with little scratches or letters usually out near the rims, and sometimes very lightly in the fields, but this is the first time I have seen one that graded with an X plunk in the middle of Liberty's bust. So while the TPG's and the Beanery have made us feel safer about many of our purchases, it still behooves us to examine every potential buy with a skeptical, reptilian gaze (and maybe a loupe and good lighting).