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Heritage no longer sells ANY coins to Minnesota residents

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And why can't a big company like HA register themselves as bullion coin dealers in Minnesota, and comply with their laws?

 

I'm not saying I agree with that law, but it passed, so.. Does it really make more sense to stop selling coins to Minnesota customers all together..?

 

 

By the way, and not to hijack the thread,

I placed an order (I'm in NY) with APMEX which is located in Oklahoma, and the order was shipped from Oklahoma, but I was charged NY sales tax on the order. When I called them to ask why, I was told that "since we also have a small office in NY as well, we must charge NY sales tax, even though our warehouse is in, and we ship from, Oklahoma". I cancelled my order (it was a bullion order, so almost 9% extra makes a BIG difference). Does this make sense, or it's just a rip off..?

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Yonico.... You have a valid point, and Im sure they could as HA is about as put together as any company I know of....

 

The question I keep coming back to is, At what point do we draw the line, and make a stance (so to speak) on big government and laws that go far beyond the reach of what was ever intended when government was formed/created??? This is not the first time I have had a very difficult time wrapping my mind around a silly law passed here, or there... but it is one near or at the top of that list. I shake my head and cannot get it for the life of me.

 

I mean, does anyone else struggle with the realization that the lawmakers who come up with delusional legislation like this law get paid by the tax payers??? They are being paid by the taxpayers, and this is the silly mess they are coming up with??? Where is the logic, where's the effectiveness, where is the process that is supposed to protect the people from the invasion that this ultimately is???

 

I think if anything, HA is making that stand, because I believe they absolutely could do what is needed... but maybe if HA, and enough of the larger companies take a stand, the citizens of that great state will make their voice heard.

 

Hopefully.

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I wonder what would happen if I sold a coin on eBay to someone from Minnesota?

 

I seriously doubt they have the personnel to monitor and enforce this law against individual eBay users...but I can imagine a fun scenario in which I receive an email from the MN Dept of Commerce telling me to register as a bullion dealer, and me responding with a very polite "Go Something Yourself." Sounds like a registration fee money grab.

 

Being from the great state of Illinois, we know all about that kind of stuff. :)

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Thanks to the new insufficiently_thoughtful_person bullion law. Saw this ATS:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-D-1C-Lincoln-Cent-NGC-MS-66-RD-/121394016396?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item1c43a5b08c

 

It's ironic that the coin cited in your link is copper -- which doesn't fall under any definition of bullion in the Minnesota law.

 

I don't like the Minnesota law, but I think people are wholly idiotic in their interpretation of the law -- just as the law is idiotic in the first place.

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I just called Heritage and spoke with someone in their sales department.

 

Heritage is only stopping the sale of coins to Minnesota residents on their "direct buy" eBay store and on their website when coins are legally owned by Heritage as an entity. Coins consigned for auctions will still be sold to Minnesota residents, as Heritage is only the consignee of said items -- and as such, they are not required to meet any of the requirements set out in the Minnesota Department of Commerce requirements. The legislation specifically excludes auctioneers and online website operators from the need to meet the requirements of sales to MN residents.

 

In summary,

 

Heritage Auctions IS still selling items consigned to their coin auctions to Minnesota residents.

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1) Good for Heritage! I read the law and the hoops that have to be jumped and if I were in their shoes as well, I would likely do the same. They have records to show what % of income/bids/winning bids/etc come from MN residents so they have probably done a cost-benefit analysis and this was the right thing for them.

 

2) There is an excellent thread on the PCGS boards that Foodude has been commenting on and updating. There is a lot of good, factual, information there....as well as updates on things happening. I would hope that folks would bring themselves up to speed BEFORE just going off the reservation with fear mongering. The new law wouldn't affect ME, due to my piddling sales, even if I were selling, and likely wouldn't affect many collector/seller folks. There are volume levels set. Now, it will affect many that do consignments and large value items.

 

3) Not even the same thing comparing this to buying from a business online that HAS to charge tax due to any presence in the state. AMZN does this. Dell does it. Newegg does it. They all have to do it, even if they only have the smallest of presence, your tax dollars are in demand and they will be sued by the government if they don't do it.

 

4) The new law, as written and currently enforced, is bogus and is trying to fix with a sledgehammer what a surgical knife is needed for. Politicians are what they are (usually stupid and unwilling to actually look at root cause and will instead go for the big flourish) and that is what is happening here.....

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1) Good for Heritage! I read the law and the hoops that have to be jumped and if I were in their shoes as well, I would likely do the same. They have records to show what % of income/bids/winning bids/etc come from MN residents so they have probably done a cost-benefit analysis and this was the right thing for them.

 

The material that Heritage sells directly (i.e., via eBay auctions) to MN residents is likely minuscule. Their eBay account is usually the offloading of extremely low dollar items that Heritage owns outright, not that they are selling for a consignor.

 

I think HA would be registering if they were not exempt via the auctioneer clause in the legislation. With a population of more than 5 million people, I would fathom a decent amount of profit comes from Minnesota buyers annually.

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4) Politicians are what they are (usually stupid and unwilling to actually look at root cause and will instead go for the big flourish) and that is what is happening here.....

 

Sorry but that would actually require some work. Politicians are good at partisan bloviation so as to get re-elected not doing the required research to make law. You expect too much.

 

lol

 

jom

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The material that Heritage sells directly (i.e., via eBay auctions) to MN residents is likely minuscule.

Probably but still almost certainly over the $5,000 theshold which would require them to register and post the bond. That is where the problem comes in. From my reading/understanding of the law the size of the bond is NOT dependent on the amount sold to MN residents but on their TOTAL sales volume. So if Heritage did over $5,000 in direct sales to MN residents they would have to post a $200,000 bond with the state. And if one state gets away with it, there are 49 more that could follow suit. A potential for $10 Million to become tied up in bonds as dead capital.

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as much as I disagree with the idea of legislation like this, I know that in Utah, where I am, just because you need a 200K dollar bond, or whatever, doesn't mean you literally tie up $200K. I cant remember exactly but at one point I was looking at needing to have a $50K bond, and it was like a thousand bucks or less....I could be wrong, but the way I interpreted a "bond" was sort of comparible to liability insurance. a 1 million dollar policy was less than $500 per year.

 

But still... this law is so out of line.

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The material that Heritage sells directly (i.e., via eBay auctions) to MN residents is likely minuscule.

Probably but still almost certainly over the $5,000 theshold which would require them to register and post the bond. That is where the problem comes in. From my reading/understanding of the law the size of the bond is NOT dependent on the amount sold to MN residents but on their TOTAL sales volume. So if Heritage did over $5,000 in direct sales to MN residents they would have to post a $200,000 bond with the state. And if one state gets away with it, there are 49 more that could follow suit. A potential for $10 Million to become tied up in bonds as dead capital.

 

Right, which if you had read/quoted my complete post, instead of a small piece, you would understand why I think it's understandable that they are doing this for their direct buy business.

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This is simple. The residents of the state of Minnesota voted these people into power and they now need to get off their and contact these clowns to reverse this silly act. The Dealer community should be out front and as vocal as anyone.

 

I'm of the opinion that there should be no taxes paid on coins bought for collecting purposes, but, many states tax sales at B&M's, coin shows and auctions. It's money for Christ sake!!!

 

Clearly these are examples of government over stepping their bounds. They need to hear about it.

 

I remember about 2 years ago when Dealers were up in arms about some proposal/idea/law regarding record keeping when sales exceed $10,000 for a given customer. That silly idea got dropped. This one should too.

 

 

 

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Sadly I am coming to the conclusion that your voice does not count for much any more. The current prevailing philosophy of government is "Bigger is better," and "What can government do for me?"

 

There is a big disconnect between the polls that say people are unhappy with the direction public policy is going, and the public figures people say they want to elect. The public figures who are leading in the polls are the kind of officials who pass laws like this. If those are the people you support at the polls, then you should not be surprised when they ignore your complaints about laws that are aimed toward controlling more and more of private sector activity.

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I don't understand this law - what is a bullion coin and what are precious metals?

 

 

is a 1964 quarter a bullion coin? how about a 1944 Jefferson?

 

what are precious metals? copper? nickel? zinc?

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I would appreciate any person, whether for or against the law, that believes this is a very easily understood and well worded piece of legislation not in need of any interpretation or further description of its intent, to explain why.

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I don't understand this law - what is a bullion coin and what are precious metals?

 

 

is a 1964 quarter a bullion coin? how about a 1944 Jefferson?

 

what are precious metals? copper? nickel? zinc?

 

Since the 1964 quarter and the 1944 Jefferson contain silver (90% for the quarter, 35% for the nickel) they fall under the law. Ironically that bogus "1929 half eagle, layered in 24k gold" that is advertised in TV gets past the law because it contains less than 1% precious metal.

 

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I don't understand this law - what is a bullion coin and what are precious metals?

I don't know about their definition of precious metal, but under the law a bullion coin is any one that contains more than 1% gold or silver.

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I don't understand this law - what is a bullion coin and what are precious metals?

I don't know about their definition of precious metal, but under the law a bullion coin is any one that contains more than 1% gold or silver.

 

Even if a billion where produced by the US mint for circulating coinage?

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I don't understand this law - what is a bullion coin and what are precious metals?

I don't know about their definition of precious metal, but under the law a bullion coin is any one that contains more than 1% gold or silver.

 

Even if a billion where produced by the US mint for circulating coinage?

 

We will probably never see any circulating coinage with silver, let alone gold in it, but that probably was not considered in the law. It may have been another, "You'll have to pass the law to see what's in it ... Tee-He," situations. :insane::o

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We will probably never see any circulating coinage with silver, let alone gold in it, but that probably was not considered in the law. It may have been another, "You'll have to pass the law to see what's in it ... Tee-He," situations. :insane::o

 

I was thinking more of the halves, quarters and dimes from the early/mid 60's. The modern day proof sets that are silver have been known to have escapees found in the wild, but only millions of those proof sets made.

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Even if a billion where produced by the US mint for circulating coinage?

Yes.

 

Or in the case of things like for example the Mexican one peso of 1957 to 1967 which was 10% silver with .05 oz of silver, or the 10 New Peso 19925 to 95 which had a sterling silver center with .16 oz of silver. These would both be considered bullion coins under the law which would mean lots of paperwork, having to explain the amounts of silver in the coins the value of the silver etc

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