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Proof coins

34 posts in this topic

Sorry if I bother you with this subject, but I was looking thru some of the past auctions and noticed a 1909 VDB listed as a Proof. I didn't think the gov made proofs until sometime in the 50's.

 

It certainly didn't look like a proof and didn't say prooflike. Then it sold for over 1300.00 bucks

 

I looked it up on PGCS...

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James, yes they made proof Lincoln cents from 1909 - 1916 including the 09 VDB. If a true 09 VDB sold for $1300 that is a complete steal. They halted production of proofs from 1917 to 1935 and again minted proof sets from 1936 - 1942. After that they didn't mint proofs again until 1950. They had a small hiatus from 1965 - 1967 and haven't stopped again since 1968.

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Oh and some clarification, the proofs of 1909 - 1916 were matte proofs and pretty much look nothing like what you see today. They are definitely neither cameo nor brilliant in appearance.

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Sorry if I bother you with this subject, but I was looking thru some of the past auctions and noticed a 1909 VDB listed as a Proof. I didn't think the gov made proofs until sometime in the 50's.

 

It certainly didn't look like a proof and didn't say prooflike. Then it sold for over 1300.00 bucks

 

I looked it up on PGCS...

 

Was this statement in regard to this specific series only? Cause the mint started making proofs long before 1909...

 

And +1 to everything coindude said. If love to buy a nice 09-VDB proof for 1300!

 

And not a bother at all!

 

 

 

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Check your copy of the Guide Book of US Coins. You'll find hundreds of proof coins listed.

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there are proof 1909 vdb cents but they are satin/matte proofs depending on the die state

 

with the surfaces being again satiny/pebbily/diamond like with incredible minute details of the designs

 

they have squared flat rims and ever so slightly PL (if still original red unc.) thick, flat knife edges (not seen in a slab holder covering up the edge)

(the edge is the third part and sometimes the most important part of the coin)

 

first part--- obverse

second part--- reverse

third part--- edge

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I hope Bob doesn't mind me posting one of his pictures here, but this coin is a very nice representation of a 1909 proof MPL, or Matte Proof Lincoln.

 

1909VDBpr64BNtv.jpg

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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

The proof cents of 1909-16 and the nickels of 1913-16 are not matte proofs; they are satin proofs. Unlike the gold coins, which were sand blasted after striking, the cents and nickels received no post-striking treatment and are a true reflection of the dies.

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Minor expansion of the explanation....the dies for matte proof Lincolns and Buffalos were evidently sandblasted before hardening. The effect deteriorated quickly during use leaving most with a satin surface similar to that of a new die. (The defect rate was approximately 50%, so at least twice as many coins were struck as eventually were released for sale.)

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The 1909-VDB is virtually impossible to find in Proof. I once had visions putting together all of available non gold 20th century Proof type coins, but I threw in the towel on that years ago because of the 1909-VDB cent. Nice ones cost over $70 grand and are never available in any case.

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Wow..

Your answers to my question just demonstrate how much work it takes to gain all this knowledge about coins.

 

Thanks

I never knew proofs existed before 1950 and how different they look from modern proofs.

I wish I could find that one that I stated in my first question, but lost tract of which site I was on

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There are Barber and Seated Proof coins with similar cameo contrast that you see on modern Proofs. The era of the dull or Matte Proof coins was brief (1908 - very rare pieces in the '20s), and they were not popular with many collectors.

 

If you want see pictures of some older Proofs, check out my half cent to dollar type set.

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Proof coins existed in the 1820s...in fact a few sold this week in the Gardener collection.

 

jom

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Proof coins existed in the 1820s...in fact a few sold this week in the Gardener collection.

 

jom

 

But the prices !!! :o:P

 

Don't even think about those coins.

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Proof coins existed in the 1820s...in fact a few sold this week in the Gardener collection.

 

jom

 

But the prices !!! :o:P

 

Don't even think about those coins.

 

Why not? They actually RARE coins...some even unique. If I had the dough....then again...I don't...so yeah, why bother? :sorry:

 

jom

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There are two levels of collector frustration. One is the coins are so expensive you can't afford them. The other is you have the money, but you can't fill the slot because nothing is offered for sale. I am not talking about waiting six months to a year. I am talking about five years or more.

 

A lot of those early Proof coins fall into that class. You might get lucky and find one or two, but a collection of them is out of reach unless you can fall into a deal where you can buy an intact collection.

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So the quality of proof coins varies by the date of issue. A "proof" in the early 1900's doesn't have to look like a proof coin in the 1980's.

 

Doesn't make sense to me.

 

I guess the coin they say is proof back in 1900 is a proof but I think it's probably an UNC

 

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Why would you expect a proof coin minted in 1900 to look like a proof coin minted in 1980?

 

The technology of coin presses has changed in 80 years and the technology of making coin dies has changed in 80 years.

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Maybe they should grade modern proofs different then older proofs.

 

You must admit that older proofs are not of the quality of modern proofs.

 

How can you even determine if an early penny (say 1909) is a proof or just uncirculated

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How can you even determine if an early penny (say 1909) is a proof or just uncirculated?

 

 

 

The same way one is able to determine anything, of course - by becoming educated on the subject.

 

(For example, you might refer to my first reply to this thread.)

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You must admit that older proofs are not of the quality of modern proofs.

 

I beg to differ. Just because the older Proofs may not have the "flash" of most modern Proof coins, that does not mean they are of lesser quality. The older Proofs may not all be Deep Cameo like the modern Proofs of today, but I would much rather have a Barber Half or Morgan Dollar Proof in my collection versus any of the modern Proofs of today, including the PF70 DCAM/UCAM ASE's.

 

 

 

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So the quality of proof coins varies by the date of issue. A "proof" in the early 1900's doesn't have to look like a proof coin in the 1980's.

 

Doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

Why doesn't that make sense to you? The term "proof" just refers to a the method of manufacture and includes double striking and often the coins are struck with highly polished dies and have mirror fields (the exception being satin or matte proofs). Within those parameters, there can be several variations and the effects on technology would affect the outcome. Why would you expect an early proof to be struck in the same method as coins struck using a modern coin press?

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You must admit that older proofs are not of the quality of modern proofs.

 

In what sense? For sure there aren't millions of PF69-PF70 examples of older proofs lying around, but even on modern proofs (e.g. 1980s), grades in the PF66-PF68 range are not uncommon. Older proofs exist in those grades as well. Moreover, it might not be clear whether the overall grades are the result of method of manufacture or several years of additional storage that moderns didn't go through.

 

And just in case you were unaware and are referring to cameo contrasts, yes there are cameo and even deep cameo coins for pre 1950 proofs although they are rarer.

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Renaissance of American Coinage, 1909-1915, by Roger Burdette covers the early proofs very well.

 

It can be purchased at Wizard Coin Supply. I have a copy and some super interesting material here besides the early 1900s proof coins.

 

 

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My thought is that coin grading should be consistent without variation for "rarity" or age --- the coins are what they are and we should not change definitions. (One might accept more post-mint damage or cleaning on older pieces, but that would have to be based on individual assessments.)

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I agree with you. A coin should be graded on a consistent basis irrelevant of age or the technology at the time. A "proof" made in 1909 does not even come close to a proof made in the 2000's.

 

It's impossible for an average or even a semi educated collector to determine the grade of coins when older coins are listed as proofs and they look like AU or UNC.

 

Has there ever been a 1909 penny graded as a proof by NGC or other grading service? I'd like to see a picture. then compare it to a MS65.

 

Then you can take a 1980 penny proof and compare it to the 1909 proof and compare which one has more detail. Come on.. Which coin looks better?

 

Rarity is the key of course, but we shouldn't use rarity as an excuse for over grading coins. ,

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If you want to see images of older proof coins, your best bet is to look at the archives at Heritage.

 

 

edited to add: If you want to learn more about early proof coins, then I'd once again recommend Breen's Encyclopedia of Proof Coins, which is online. See my first reply to this thread for the link.

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