NGC or PCGS

[AFZ]

Yes, that's right. Mark's advice was not to submit a crossover to NGC for my 1911D AU-58 quarter eagle. I asked "why?"

 

Thanks.

[coinman_23885]

Yes, that's right. Mark's advice was not to submit a crossover to NGC for my 1911D AU-58 quarter eagle. I asked "why?"

 

Thanks.

 

In some series and issues, PCGS coins sell for a premium. PCGS coins appear to carry a premium for this issue, and you would possibly lower the value of the coin.

[O mint bug]

Mark

 

I feel it is the type of coin in question. If you collect more recent $1MS 65 material I would say yes on PCGS. Old southern gold is a buy the coin not the case situation" with very little difference. I have seen PCGS coins I could only shake my head at and the same for NGC. In all fairness the only way to avoid a mistake is not to do anything.

 

I would go with PCGS as this is what I feel the market perceives for lower priced material site unseen. I am looking for a $20 AU 55 O $20 and the first one that comes along graded what I feel is right NGC or PCGS I am going to move on it with either service being fine. My focus is so small I would see what other replies say about what you collect. You can also look at Heritage Auction results and see what price two examples of the same date, mint mark and grade bring. Eye appeal is a big factor as well. I still think you are better off buying a coin not the holder you like no matter which one grades it, especially if you are a dealer.

 

Both services grade very expensive coins and I doubt a serious collector puts much if any emphasis on which of the two slab it if it is going to cost a significant amount of money. They know what to look for won't pay a premium. If that were the case you would not see any very rare coins in a NGC slab and many are graded by them. In fact it seems like NGC seems to be grading more of the older gold I see going to auction.

[O mint bug]

If PCGS were really that better the seller would benefit from cross over to NGC as the only reason PCGS COULD command a higher price is being tougher on grading. That being said a AU 55 NGC will bring more than a PCGS 53 and it will not. Never give away points. My small collection is about 50/50. I sent my weakest AU53 NGC to PCGS to see if there was such a difference and it crossed. Only compliant is PCGS did not place the coin in straight.

[coinman_23885]

If PCGS were really that better the seller would benefit from cross over to NGC as the only reason PCGS COULD command a higher price is being tougher on grading.

 

No. Marketing and the PCGS Registry could also lead to differences in prices. PCGS has always marketed itself very well and was an early proponent of market makers for its coins. Also in some series there are qualitative differences between the two services.

[WingedLiberty1]

This is just my opinion from experience with submitting over 500 coins to PCGS and about 100 ngc to pcgs crossovers

 

- PCGS is tougher in general but especially with copper. copper usually drops 1 grade going from NGC to PCGS (but not always) ... occasionally PCGS might grade an NGC copper coin higher. But on average expect a lower more conservative grade with PCGS. I think that's why a lot of dealers/sellers might perfer NGC since the grade is higher, they think they might be able to make more money ... And I think that's why a lot of coin buyers prefer PCGS since there is a perception that the grade is more accurate (or at least more conservative)

 

- NGC has missed tooling on coins (that I have bought in NGC slabs) in the past ... Tooling that PCGS (and CAC) picks up on. So be careful buying really expensive coins in NGC slabs

 

- PCGS has a HUGE ADVANTAGE over NGC with their out-of-the-slab TrueView photo service (and free CoinFacts photo service on eye appealing coins, tho you have to subscribe to coinfacts to access those photos). This is an especially big advantage with colorfully toned coins.

 

Overall I give a pretty big nod to PCGS as #1

 

However I know there are people that love NGC. I would say that NGC is the clear #2 best TPG.

 

I have walked away from some NGC coins that I have liked -- where if that same coin was in a PCGS slab I would have bought it. I wonder if more people do that than some realize and if that is why PCGS coins generally sell for more money than NGC coins at the same grade. I know that some hit me with the mantra "buy the coin and not the slab" or "learn to grade yourself" however I have been trying to learn how to do that for 5 years and still can't figure it out on some coins -- so I will defer to the experts on that front (not that those same experts can't make mistakes).

 

 

 

 

[Hard Times]

This is just my opinion from experience with submitting over 500 coins to PCGS and about 100 ngc to pcgs crossovers

 

- PCGS is tougher in general but especially with copper. copper usually drops 1 grade going from NGC to PCGS (but not always) ... occasionally PCGS might grade an NGC copper coin higher. But on average expect a lower more conservative grade with PCGS. I think that's why a lot of dealers/sellers might perfer NGC since the grade is higher, they think they might be able to make more money ... And I think that's why a lot of coin buyers prefer PCGS since there is a perception that the grade is more accurate (or at least more conservative)

 

- NGC has missed tooling on coins (that I have bought in NGC slabs) in the past ... Tooling that PCGS (and CAC) picks up on. So be careful buying really expensive coins in NGC slabs

 

- PCGS has a HUGE ADVANTAGE over NGC with their out-of-the-slab TrueView photo service (and free CoinFacts photo service on eye appealing coins, tho you have to subscribe to coinfacts to access those photos). This is an especially big advantage with colorfully toned coins.

 

Overall I give a pretty big nod to PCGS as #1

 

However I know there are people that love NGC. I would say that NGC is the clear #2 best TPG.

 

I have walked away from some NGC coins that I have liked -- where if that same coin was in a PCGS slab I would have bought it. I wonder if more people do that than some realize and if that is why PCGS coins generally sell for more money than NGC coins at the same grade. I know that some hit me with the mantra "buy the coin and not the slab" or "learn to grade yourself" however I have been trying to learn how to do that for 5 years and still can't figure it out on some coins -- so I will defer to the experts on that front (not that those same experts can't make mistakes).

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry Mr. Winged, if you are so enamoured with PCGS and essentially tell us that NGC is inferior on these NGC boards then I am going to raise questions about what you are saying. There is nothing worse than folks coming onto these boards and telling us that PCGS grades tighter than NGC blah blah blah. Puhlease!

 

NGC is not a clear #2 with the exception to marketing and hype for which PCGS is superior. That is why publicly traded companies do - hype to boost the price of their stock. Many folks listen to their hype such that they have bought into it, it is all marketing which in some cases has made coins in PCGS holders pricier than similar ones in NGC holders, and has nothing to do with grading differences or not between the companies.

 

With crossing slabs, there is always a tendency to downgrade a coin for many reasons that are a separate discussion and it goes both ways. Both companies miss tooling so your statements as to why you think PCGS is better than NGC is not with merit. In fact, in all of my buying and selling over the past decade, albeit with a focus on 19th century coins, I have found no differences in pricing or grading between coins in the two slab holders. I have found no differences in the rates at which CAC beans NGC and PCGS holdered coins (and CAC is yet another separate discussion). It is the coin that matters, not the holder, this is really what is going on. And it is up to the numismatist to be able to evaluate that coin and price it, NOT THE HOLDER. We pay so much for these coins the onus is really on the buyer to be capable of evaluating the product. The holder and beaning or not is just a starting point.

 

Why would so many famous collections (i.e. Newman) and the Smithsonian collection be graded by NGC if they were a 'clear #2'? Why did about 90% of the Newman collection coins get CACed? If NGC were inferior in grading, this would not be what one expects simple as that.

 

Further, True Views are like Lance Armstrong in the saddle, all juiced up - another marketing hype scheme of the PCGS company and a waste of money if you want to capture a coin with how it really looks. If you want great images, learn how to use a camera is what I tell people, or pay for the service that many excellent photographers here on these boards provide, that can capture the true beauty of the coin and not TV juicing.

 

With respect to refusing a coin in an NGC holder that you would buy if it were in a PCGS holder, that is just a ludicrous statement in all ways. You are right, you should learn how to evaluate a coin yourself so you don't miss out on great coins in NGC holders. Or perhaps, find a dealer or collector you trust that can help you evaluate your purchases.

 

But posting 'Overall I give a pretty big nod to PCGS as #1' will have better traction ATS so why don't you go over there and hang with your brethren and leave us inferior folks to our inferior product?

 

Best, HT

 

My one true view with their contrast, saturation, and various other settings amped up:

 

 

My image which I prefer:

 

 

 

[RWB]

Many human activities involving opinion – even that of experienced and highly trained persons – fall on a normalized bell curve. Grading coins is likely one of these activities. It is very probable that if the curves for both companies were prepared they would be nearly identical. Further, each numerical “grade” has its own bell curve distribution which wipes out any actual bias of “coin grading” results.

 

(The Apple vs PC analogy is not applicable. The two have differing purposes to their design.)

 

[dimefreak]

There was a time when I was obsessed with star coins. So I got a NGC membership so I could make some. I sent in one submission. They hammered my coins!!! On top of that no matter how you want to cut it NGC coins don't trade for as much. So.... I buy NGC coins any chance I get! However I did not buy another year with them. So its my opinion that PCGS has found a way to market there services better. I have multiple NGC coins that once busted will upgrade. And can supply pics before and after of NGC coins I upgraded.

[coinman_23885]

- NGC has missed tooling on coins (that I have bought in NGC slabs) in the past ... Tooling that PCGS (and CAC) picks up on. So be careful buying really expensive coins in NGC slabs.

 

I had a proof classic gold coin in a holder that was deemed altered surfaces by CAC. The coin was graded by PCGS and was quite expensive. I took a haircut and learned a valuable lesson about buying coins in either service's plastic based on crumby photos (and virtually no return privilege). I made the very naive assumption that reputable auction firms would have disclosed such problems when not apparent in the photos - I still don't know what on earth I was thinking.

 

Nevertheless, I don't disagree that both services have strengths and weaknesses, and the standards occasionally differ as to grade and strike designations, etc.

[Treeman]

I have been away from collecting for a number of years, just getting back into it in the past week. Anyway, a number of years ago, it seemed to me that one or the other would, generally speaking, have nicer coins, at the same grade, in certain series. I found, back then, that my favorite, the Large Cents, were generally nicer coins in the NGC slabs. I remember getting pounced on for saying the same at that time. I remember Jefferson Nickels were "Full Step" with 6 steps at NGC, and 5steps at PCGS. Now both label 5 or 6 steps. All in all, it has been my experience that a "high for the grade", or "low end for the grade" can be found in either slab. I have also noticed (years ago, haven't seen much recently) that a NICE FOR THE GRADE coin, in either slab, would have a higher, and sometimes much higher, price, as compared to the average coin. I'm surprised, though not too much, that the PCGS - NGC wars continue. I admit I like my slabs to be consistent, and prefer the NGC slabs, but, the coin in the slab is the bottom line. And again, I will repeat, that I am "anal" enough to pay for cross to NGC, if I buy a nice coin in the PCGS holder. I also believe that a nice coin will not, if purchased "in hand", sell for a discount due to the flavor of the slab. Then again, I know that there are probably still a lot of people who like the "koolaid", if you guys still use that term :-) I guess I'm a bit of a "koolaid" drinker, because of my preference for somewhat consistent slabs, but I don't drink enough of it to say that I won't find a "better" coin in the other holder....

[Hard Times]

- NGC has missed tooling on coins (that I have bought in NGC slabs) in the past ... Tooling that PCGS (and CAC) picks up on. So be careful buying really expensive coins in NGC slabs.

 

I had a proof classic gold coin in a holder that was deemed altered surfaces by CAC. The coin was graded by PCGS and was quite expensive. I took a haircut and learned a valuable lesson about buying coins in either service's plastic based on crumby photos (and virtually no return privilege). I made the very naive assumption that reputable auction firms would have disclosed such problems when not apparent in the photos - I still don't know what on earth I was thinking.

 

Nevertheless, I don't disagree that both services have strengths and weaknesses, and the standards occasionally differ as to grade and strike designations, etc.

 

Well said.

 

I think most would agree that both services have had strengths and weaknesses that vary over time. This is because of the subjectivity of grading and who the graders are at any time and how the grading is being done. Both services have had dogs that are problem coins in their holders, both have undergraded coins in their holders. If say an 1909 S vdb is more expensive in a PCGS holder than a near identical one in an NGC holder, that is a different issue and a matter of perception and in part I believe the result of PCGS marketing. But to say NGC is a clear #2 as a grading company is simply ludicrous.

 

I wonder what would happen if I went to the PCGS boards and said PCGS was a clear #2 just for kicks, using Mr. Winged's exact prose verbatim but just switching NGC and PCGS? First, it would not be too long before the thread poofed, then I would get a ban. Mr. Winged should be thankful that NGC tolerates his denigration of them here. Hmm.....

[jom]

This is just my opinion from experience with submitting over 500 coins to PCGS and about 100 ngc to pcgs crossovers

 

- PCGS is tougher in general but especially with copper. copper usually drops 1 grade going from NGC to PCGS (but not always) ... occasionally PCGS might grade an NGC copper coin higher. But on average expect a lower more conservative grade with PCGS. I think that's why a lot of dealers/sellers might perfer NGC since the grade is higher, they think they might be able to make more money ... And I think that's why a lot of coin buyers prefer PCGS since there is a perception that the grade is more accurate (or at least more conservative)

 

- NGC has missed tooling on coins (that I have bought in NGC slabs) in the past ... Tooling that PCGS (and CAC) picks up on. So be careful buying really expensive coins in NGC slabs

 

- PCGS has a HUGE ADVANTAGE over NGC with their out-of-the-slab TrueView photo service (and free CoinFacts photo service on eye appealing coins, tho you have to subscribe to coinfacts to access those photos). This is an especially big advantage with colorfully toned coins.

 

Overall I give a pretty big nod to PCGS as #1

 

However I know there are people that love NGC. I would say that NGC is the clear #2 best TPG.

 

I have walked away from some NGC coins that I have liked -- where if that same coin was in a PCGS slab I would have bought it. I wonder if more people do that than some realize and if that is why PCGS coins generally sell for more money than NGC coins at the same grade. I know that some hit me with the mantra "buy the coin and not the slab" or "learn to grade yourself" however I have been trying to learn how to do that for 5 years and still can't figure it out on some coins -- so I will defer to the experts on that front (not that those same experts can't make mistakes).

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry Mr. Winged, if you are so enamoured with PCGS and essentially tell us that NGC is inferior on these NGC boards then I am going to raise questions about what you are saying. There is nothing worse than folks coming onto these boards and telling us that PCGS grades tighter than NGC blah blah blah. Puhlease!

 

NGC is not a clear #2 with the exception to marketing and hype for which PCGS is superior. That is why publicly traded companies do - hype to boost the price of their stock. Many folks listen to their hype such that they have bought into it, it is all marketing which in some cases has made coins in PCGS holders pricier than similar ones in NGC holders, and has nothing to do with grading differences or not between the companies.

 

With crossing slabs, there is always a tendency to downgrade a coin for many reasons that are a separate discussion and it goes both ways. Both companies miss tooling so your statements as to why you think PCGS is better than NGC is not with merit. In fact, in all of my buying and selling over the past decade, albeit with a focus on 19th century coins, I have found no differences in pricing or grading between coins in the two slab holders. I have found no differences in the rates at which CAC beans NGC and PCGS holdered coins (and CAC is yet another separate discussion). It is the coin that matters, not the holder, this is really what is going on. And it is up to the numismatist to be able to evaluate that coin and price it, NOT THE HOLDER. We pay so much for these coins the onus is really on the buyer to be capable of evaluating the product. The holder and beaning or not is just a starting point.

 

Why would so many famous collections (i.e. Newman) and the Smithsonian collection be graded by NGC if they were a 'clear #2'? Why did about 90% of the Newman collection coins get CACed? If NGC were inferior in grading, this would not be what one expects simple as that.

 

Further, True Views are like Lance Armstrong in the saddle, all juiced up - another marketing hype scheme of the PCGS company and a waste of money if you want to capture a coin with how it really looks. If you want great images, learn how to use a camera is what I tell people, or pay for the service that many excellent photographers here on these boards provide, that can capture the true beauty of the coin and not TV juicing.

 

With respect to refusing a coin in an NGC holder that you would buy if it were in a PCGS holder, that is just a ludicrous statement in all ways. You are right, you should learn how to evaluate a coin yourself so you don't miss out on great coins in NGC holders. Or perhaps, find a dealer or collector you trust that can help you evaluate your purchases.

 

But posting 'Overall I give a pretty big nod to PCGS as #1' will have better traction ATS so why don't you go over there and hang with your brethren and leave us inferior folks to our inferior product?

 

Best, HT

 

 

Nicely stated.

 

I'd like to add is a question: Why is it that everyone thinks that the superior grading service is the one that is "tougher"? I don't understand that. Sure the average MS65 coin will go for more in one holder than another. So what? Isn't the grading service that is MOST CONSISTENT with their own standards the better service? At least you know what you are getting rather than constantly changing standards.

 

True or no?

 

Also, True Views? Hell, I think my photos are better than those and mine are nothing to write home about.

 

jom

[Hard Times]

This is just my opinion from experience with submitting over 500 coins to PCGS and about 100 ngc to pcgs crossovers

 

- PCGS is tougher in general but especially with copper. copper usually drops 1 grade going from NGC to PCGS (but not always) ... occasionally PCGS might grade an NGC copper coin higher. But on average expect a lower more conservative grade with PCGS. I think that's why a lot of dealers/sellers might perfer NGC since the grade is higher, they think they might be able to make more money ... And I think that's why a lot of coin buyers prefer PCGS since there is a perception that the grade is more accurate (or at least more conservative)

 

- NGC has missed tooling on coins (that I have bought in NGC slabs) in the past ... Tooling that PCGS (and CAC) picks up on. So be careful buying really expensive coins in NGC slabs

 

- PCGS has a HUGE ADVANTAGE over NGC with their out-of-the-slab TrueView photo service (and free CoinFacts photo service on eye appealing coins, tho you have to subscribe to coinfacts to access those photos). This is an especially big advantage with colorfully toned coins.

 

Overall I give a pretty big nod to PCGS as #1

 

However I know there are people that love NGC. I would say that NGC is the clear #2 best TPG.

 

I have walked away from some NGC coins that I have liked -- where if that same coin was in a PCGS slab I would have bought it. I wonder if more people do that than some realize and if that is why PCGS coins generally sell for more money than NGC coins at the same grade. I know that some hit me with the mantra "buy the coin and not the slab" or "learn to grade yourself" however I have been trying to learn how to do that for 5 years and still can't figure it out on some coins -- so I will defer to the experts on that front (not that those same experts can't make mistakes).

 

 

 

 

And here we go Winged Bertie, here in the link below is a wonderful coin in an NGC holder, that shows up (in the second link), 3 months later, in a PCGS holder with a bean. So this is why you walk away from NGC holdered coins? Either NGC has undergraded this coin, or PCGS, with the blessing of CAC, has overgraded it. In either case, had someone of your preference for PCGS walked away from it simply 'cause it was in the wrong holder, but then later loved it in the right one, said folk would have paid about 90% more for that holder and sticker. I can show many examples going both ways, that is why what you say above by walking away on NGC holdered coins is simply foolish, I recommend you learn how to evaluate coins, given their cost, it is pretty limiting in many ways to rely on just one TPG and one sticker (or not). Yes 'NGC is a clear #2' - pulease spare me.......

 

Best, HT

 

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1171&lotNo=8033

 

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1174&lotNo=3781