NGC or PCGS

[O mint bug]

After reading the various comments about the above grading services it seems the jury is hung. I cannot see any significance in old gold. If eel PCGDS may trade at a VERY SLIGHT premium but don't think it is much and my not be warranted. The market is what it is. I cannot comment on silver or copper as far as which service is better .Do not collect this material although I would love to start on the Walking Lib quarter set as I think these are beautiful coins. All about $$$$$. I can say I have seen coins in both holders that make me wonder. I have seen DEs in PCGS holders that make me wonder why they got the grade they did and vis versa. I can tell you not every coin in a NGC holder has been to PCGS as I sent a 58 O to PCGS in a NGC holder and it crossed. Just an experiment as I do not value the coin any higher or lower PCGS or otherwise. If PCGS were tougher it should have not crossed. After looking at Heritage site there are far too many very expensive and rare coins graded by them as well as PCGS for one to be dominate over the other. It seems NGC is more active on old gold but I don't keep numbers just look at what comes to market.

 

I read David Bowers book on collecting and he felt eye appeal is one if not the most critical factor in selecting a coin not the grading service. He also is a proponent of buying the coin and not the holder and goes on to say a person can pick up some coins a better prices if the seller discounts a grading service relative to the other. He does nor seem to be much on variety collecting just quality pieces that fit the grade and look nice. His book is the best I have ever seen no matter what you collect. His tips on coin evaluation, selection and how to buy are great.

 

I took a PCGS 53 CAC 1852 O DE to a show for a possible trade to a 55 with some boot. The dealer had a NGC 55 suggested I keep what I had as both were very close either would be a fine example. An upgrade was not worth what the money would have been per the price guide. I showed a couple of other dealers the coin and neither was sure if it would regrade a straight 55 or strong 53 (CAC) if resubmitted.

 

I am glad we have both grading services and seriously doubt there are not mistakes made often by both. A 1852 O PCGS CAC was pulled from the last Heritage auction as I cannot find it in the archives and it was gone prior to the final bidding. The internet price ended well below the price guide and it should have as it was not a attractive coin no matter what grade was assigned. Some collectors I know break the slab and finally get the better grade after several attempts. Ditto with CAC. I have both in my collection and don't have any problem with either. I would like to know if the ANA coin grading service holds up to the two majors. I doubt it given whose name I see on the very expensive coins but I have never had to deal with this issue. Comments?

[Nutmeg Coin]

If you read some of the threads at PCGS forum some really sharp dealers and collectors have looked at a number of series and as can be expected are quite opinionated. Legend prefers the other grading service. In the types of coins I buy, sell and collect, it is a toss up.

[Kurtdog]

It's a learning curve. You're learning.

[James_OldeTowne]

People get way too caught up in this grade, that grade, everywhere a grade grade.

 

I choose my grading service based on satisfaction with the service and the business experience. So far, it has served very well.

[O mint bug]

I spoke to a couple of the larger dealers as I am looking for a 55 O. No luck. I discussed the grading issue with two of the buyers for very well know dealers and both commented that it is best to buy the coin and not the holder. One said he has seen a number of PCGS coins in a holder they should not have been in and the same for NGC. I agree. I also read some of the PCGS forum threads. Who knows if the pro PCGS people may be selling coins in their holders. They are entitled to their opinion but I would imagine they own coins from both graders, especially if they are collecting and selling coins that can be difficult to locate. I doubt they would discount a nice 1893 S $1 Morgan because it was in a NGC holder.

 

NGC seems to grade a bit more old gold and I watch the auction results and see very little if any difference. One PCGS coin brought a price well below their price guide at a recent heritage auction and it should have as it was not what I think a AU 58 should be or anything close. Missed by a lot of money. If it was a 58 it would have brought much more. Both graders have graded many very expensive coins and I suspect that each has an edge on a particular type. My X over on a 58 O to a PCGS holder involved the weakest 53 I own and I sent it in just to see what would be the result. Only confused the situation and I do not value it any more than it was in a NGC holder. NGC just graded their 30 millionth coin so they are bound to be doing something right.

 

Graders have a tough job and I feel the more you see the better you will know about what you collect no matter who grades it. Knowledge is the best way to cover your back. Easier for me to say as I only collect one set with 12 different coins. No two dates have the same strike quality level and each has its own weakness in terms of strike quality.

 

In the book by David Bowers he mentions that buying the slab can create big problems for those that rely on what is written on the slab, not coin quality, and this is a big mistake. He feels eye appeal and a good idea of what a coin should grade based on others is the key to putting together a nice set at a fair price. I cannot afford a big mistake on an expensive coin and read every book I can on type one o DEs. His book is far and away the best reading for the collector no matter what you collect. He knows his stuff and tells it like it is. I just wish the prices then in effect when he wrote the book were still current.

[Kurtdog]

Look, you're making this way too complicated. The TPGs are your doors into the markets. If you're into coin-investing, as though coins are but commodities to you, try to get them graded by the TPGs, and into those markets. If you're into coin-collecting, learn how to collect coins, i.e., grade them, yourself. That's all there is to it.

 

[Treeman]

Grading is probably, in most cases, very similar. However, I prefer to deal with NGC simply because they allow both services in the Registry. I think it's good for business, and for collectors, to allow that another service could actually be professional. PCGS's approach of "PCGS only" seems rather childish. However, they do succeed in making me act a bit childish, in that I will normally pass on a coin in a PCGS holder. However, if it seems really nice, I will buy it anyway, but will try to upgrade or cross it as soon as possible. Then, of course, there is that "anal" aspect, that I simply want all the holders to match :-)

[O mint bug]

When you spend a significant amount of money on a coin you better look at the investment aspect as well as enjoy it. You never go broke making a profit.The reason the grading issue gets addressed so much is a few points can make a significant amount of difference in price. I collect what I like but also factor in what the coin will do over time in terms of appreciation. Look at what a 1804 $1 proof went for in 1967 - $75,000 and look at it now, a seven figure coin. just an example but the annual ROI is not that much different for rare but most reasonably priced coins ie the 1916 P w Liberty quarter are. If I remember correctly you mentioned you deal in coins and should know well the essence of factoring in a coins track record in terms of price appreciation when you add it to your collection. It is not as simple as you think when you look at what a mistake in a grade can cost the person that do their homework prior to investing in expensive coins hobby or not. I am in it for both reasons and based on the type one DE long term track record selected it over other DEs. I also like owning a few rare coins as for many years raising a family and educating my kids kept me in the Buffalo Nickel arena. Just curious what coins do you collect?

 

I can tell you this type one O mint DEs are NOT easy to collect when the price and pop are concerned. I have not seen a nice AU 1855 o come to market and frankly don't know exactly what it will cost me when one pops up. most are hard to find and grading becomes VERY important unless you don't mind significantly overpaying for coins.

[O mint bug]

PCGS has a bit of an attitude but unless their dividend is not covered for years to come it will change. They are a public company, which sets a different agenda for their operations. I agree on the Registry issue you raised and for that reason don't pay much attention to it. Taking a position you have to have one grading service to slab it is BS.

[O mint bug]

PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE NOT ALLOWED.

 

-Moderator

[O mint bug]

Try to grade expensive coins yourself and sell them to an informed collector, sharing all you vast knowlege. Good luck.

[Treeman]

PCGS has a bit of an attitude but unless their dividend is not covered for years to come it will change. They are a public company, which sets a different agenda for their operations. I agree on the Registry issue you raised and for that reason don't pay much attention to it. Taking a position you have to have one grading service to slab it is BS.

 

Maybe it is BS, but that's why I added...

"Then, of course, there is that "anal" aspect, that I simply want all the holders to match :-) "

[Kurtdog]

PCGS has a bit of an attitude but unless their dividend is not covered for years to come it will change. They are a public company, which sets a different agenda for their operations. I agree on the Registry issue you raised and for that reason don't pay much attention to it. Taking a position you have to have one grading service to slab it is BS.

Maybe it is BS, but that's why I added...

"Then, of course, there is that "anal" aspect, that I simply want all the holders to match :-) "

 

DELETED. PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE NOT ALLOWED.

 

-Moderator

[orifdoc]

It's a good thing that both exist. If either service had a monopoly there would be no incentive to maintain customer service or grading standards.

[Treeman]

Wonder what the "Personal Attack" was about, I made a simple, and rather humorous, statement...

[AHFreak]

I do not understand why so many get so worked up about these types of things... How about everyone just do what they prefer, and what works for them and we can all be happy without trying to worry about who is sending what where, and why exactly they are doing it. Everyone has their own agenda, and being relatively new to the forum here, it seems like there are a lot of comments made that only serve one purpose which is to question why someone might want to send something to PCGS/NGC... or why someone would want to try for CAC twice, thwice or whatever... Lets keep it productive, as this environment is such a valuable resource when we are trying to help each other.

 

As far as PCGS only accepting their own coins for their registry sets... regardless of what your opinion is regarding that... when it boils right down to it, on a business level, it makes perfect sense. It would be a terrible business decision on their part to change it. I imagine that if NGC would have got their footing on "registry sets" before PCGS did, that they would quite possibly do it the same way versus allowing both like they do now. (I don't know if they really had an option when it came right down to it, PCGS had a strong hold there).

 

 

cant we all get along, and share constructive, insightful comments??

[coinman1794]

There are a few coin series, earlier gold being one of them, that trade at similar premiums regardless of the holder. Usually this occurs when the relatively small group of dedicated collectors going after a specific series know how to grade and could not care less about the slab. If only there was more of this in the hobby!

 

In the meantime, having two major grading services helps the invisible hand of economics keep the two companies in line.

[Afterword]

I use NGC for slabbing coins for three reasons - NGC's pricing is more accommodating to the wallet, NGC's slabs, in my opinion, are more attractive than PCGS’s and, lastly, neither grading service does a better job of grading coins than the other one does.

 

 

[Treeman]

I agree with you 100%, and also prefer the NGC Slab. That's why I made the earlier comment about trying to cross if I found a very nice PCGS coin. However, as past posted pictures have proven, both services have put dogs into holders. As of late though, it seems both have become (just my opinion) too harsh on higher end coins....

[AFZ]

As a relatively new collector, I can use some advice. I have recently completed my set of $2.50 Indian Quarter Eagles with a recent acquisition of a AU-58 1911-D. I think I acquired a really good specimen and was curious about the grading looking at other AU-58 through MS-61 coins available. Like other posts I've read, I have been amazed at the grades some coins have received be it NGC or PCGS. But some of these coins may have been graded a long time ago and maybe we've witnessed grade creep over the years. Now, I'm wondering if it pays to send my PCGS AU-58 to NGC for a crossover. The rest of my collection is all MS. I'm certainly not a grading expert, but just looking online and even with magnification and auction catalogs, I don't understand the grades of some coins. Is it worth the expense of sending this coin in either for regrading or crossover? Thanks.

[MarkFeld]

As a relatively new collector, I can use some advice. I have recently completed my set of $2.50 Indian Quarter Eagles with a recent acquisition of a AU-58 1911-D. I think I acquired a really good specimen and was curious about the grading looking at other AU-58 through MS-61 coins available. Like other posts I've read, I have been amazed at the grades some coins have received be it NGC or PCGS. But some of these coins may have been graded a long time ago and maybe we've witnessed grade creep over the years. Now, I'm wondering if it pays to send my PCGS AU-58 to NGC for a crossover. The rest of my collection is all MS. I'm certainly not a grading expert, but just looking online and even with magnification and auction catalogs, I don't understand the grades of some coins. Is it worth the expense of sending this coin in either for regrading or crossover? Thanks.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Without seeing the coin, there is no way to provide a meaningful opinion or suggestion regarding a re-grade. However, even without an image, I would advise against a cross-over from PCGS to NGC.

 

Do you have a highly knowledgeable dealer or collector friend to whom you could show the coin and get an opinion?

[Treeman]

AU58 is just about the toughest grade to ever get upgraded. The reason being, that they found some rub on the coin, or it would have graded MS. It could be an otherwise gorgeous MS66, but the rub keeps it out of MS, and 58 is about the limit for any coin with ANY wear...

[MarkFeld]

AU58 is just about the toughest grade to ever get upgraded. The reason being, that they found some rub on the coin, or it would have graded MS. It could be an otherwise gorgeous MS66, but the rub keeps it out of MS, and 58 is about the limit for any coin with ANY wear...

 

There are many coins with a bit of rub on them which have been gaded MS60 or higher by NGC and PCGS.

 

AU58 coins aren't necessarily any more difficult to get upgraded than other grades of coins - some of them are under-graded and some of them are over-graded. It depends on the coin in question.

[Treeman]

"There are many coins with a bit of rub on them which have been gaded MS60 or higher by NGC and PCGS."

 

To me, that would mean they were not graded correctly, but, then again, I'm definitely "Old School" :-)

[MarkFeld]

"There are many coins with a bit of rub on them which have been gaded MS60 or higher by NGC and PCGS."

 

To me, that would mean they were not graded correctly, but, then again, I'm definitely "Old School" :-)

 

I agree, but there are plenty of them out there.

 

That said, sometmes it is difficult to distinguish rub from weak strike.

[jom]

"There are many coins with a bit of rub on them which have been gaded MS60 or higher by NGC and PCGS."

 

To me, that would mean they were not graded correctly, but, then again, I'm definitely "Old School" :-)

 

I agree, but there are plenty of them out there.

 

That said, sometmes it is difficult to distinguish rub from weak strike.

 

There's also a chance the coin, although it has rub, might be WORTH more than many lower MS coins because it's just nicer...hence the "higher than AU58" grade. I'm not saying that is the correct way of handling it but it is a difficult part of the grading system we have.

 

jom

[Treeman]

Quite frankly, I would personally pay more for a beautiful AU58, than I would for a large percentage of MS63's out there. There are indeed many "AU58" coins out there, that are AU58 with an MS65 look to them. That being said, the slab should still say AU58, but the money should speak louder than a number on a slab. Just my humble opinion and I certainly accept that some may disagree...

[AFZ]

Thanks, but I have to ask the obvious question, why? Are PCGS graded coins more valuable? Is there a risk of a lower grade from NGC? Still learning and thanks again.

[MarkFeld]

Thanks, but I have to ask the obvious question, why? Are PCGS graded coins more valuable? Is there a risk of a lower grade from NGC? Still learning and thanks again.

 

"Why" what?

[Treeman]

I think he means, why:

 

"I would advise against a cross-over from PCGS to NGC."