Red Coin Alert!!!

[Leothelion]

This coin is overgraded by Pcgs! The hair detail is weak! This is not a MS65 coin!The 81-P is one of the tougher dates to locate in full steps! Don't be fooled into thinking this is a MS65 coin just because they said so! ! The coin is not fully strucked, therefore it grades MS64 at best!

 

 

 

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Thank you! Leo

[kryptonitecomics]

The coin is as struck from the mint and as far as my understanding of grading coins, can be upward of MS67 and still have a somewhat weak strike. I don't think your argument is valid because we know their are tons of coins that are known for weak strikes and if it is a mark free example it could and should still be able to grade better than GEM Mint.

 

[Leothelion]

The coin is as struck from the mint and as far as my understanding of grading coins, can be upward of MS67 and still have a somewhat weak strike. I don't think your argument is valid because we know their are tons of coins that are known for weak strikes and if it is a mark free example it could and should still be able to grade better than GEM Mint.

 

 

Krypto

These grading standards are posted at the Pcgs website. It's too bad Pcgs can't follow them!

 

MS-64

This is for "Mint State" (the grade) and "64" (the numerical designation of that grade). This grade is also called "Borderline Gem" at times, as well as "Very Choice BU." There will be no more than a couple of significant marks or, possibly, a number of light abrasions. The overall visual impact of the coin will be positive. The strike will range from average to full and the luster breaks will be minimal.

See Also -- Mint State

MS-65

This is for "Mint State" (the grade) and "65" (the numerical designation of that grade). This grade is also called "Gem" or "Gem Mint State" or "Gem BU." There may be scattered marks, hairlines or other defects, but they will be minor. Any spots on copper coins will also be minor. The coin must be well struck with positive (average or better) eye appeal. This is a NICE coin!

See Also -- Mint State Gem Gem BU

 

Leo

[kryptonitecomics]

I personally don't agree with what's written and I know of no grading company that requires a full strike for a grade of MS65. I think with all grading, it's very subjective and nothing is set in stone. With that said, if you are going to put something in writing....you should adhere to it.

[coinman1794]

Those PCGS standards say it needs to be "well struck," which does not mean the same thing as fully struck, as kingofthejungle is saying they do.

 

A coin can have some weakness, as this piece does, and still make a gem grade. Only in cases of an obvious and anoying weak strike will it affect the grade at PCGS/NGC.

[Leothelion]

After giving it more thought, I've come up with a few illustrations to help demonstrate my point of view. For many Jefferson nickel dates, the average strike is not full! But yet, Jefferson nickels having less than a full strike do come with full steps. Granted, assembling a high grade, full strike, 4 to 6 step Jefferson nickel collection takes years to complete! Perhaps a lifetime! But yet, we have NGC and Pcgs registrants putting together sets in just a matter of a few short months! It’s very likely, most of those registry sets are being filled with these run of the mill kind of nickels. The traditional mindset for the serious collector, the hunt for fully struck examples, has been going on for over 60 years! In my first example, I have figured out how to transpose the reverse over the obverse into one picture. I did this to illustratehow the high points of the reverse, the steps, are on opposite sides of some high areas of the obverse! In the left frame, we can see where the steps are position on the opposite side of the hair of the obverse. In the right frame is a coin that has a weak area where the detail in the hair did not strike up. I have circled that area in red and have added a set of steps to that area. During the striking process of that particular planchet, had the metal flow filled that area of the hair then that coin would not have had full steps! A new collector will find many of these average struck coins with full steps. But over time, a seasoned collector would upgrade that coin with a fully struck example and right so!

 

 

 

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In my 2nd illustration are pictures of two 1946-D nickels! The first picture shows a fully struck coin with 5 full steps while the 2nd picture shows a mushy 46-D with 6 steps! There are several reasons why the 2nd 46-D has 6 steps and one is because the rest of the coin did not strike up! When the dies became so worn to a point where very little detail would strike up elsewhere on the planchet, with no where else for the metal flow to go, it was forced into the step area of the die. My imagination is starting to run a little wild again and the question arises as to why the US Mint didn’t use higher force to strike the planchets! Of course, one reason is due to the hardness of the cupro-nickel alloy used to make the planchets. They must of backed off with the pressure of the strikes in order to make the dies last longer! Then again, increased force would have worn out the dies sooner if they didn’t break first.

 

 

 

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Here’s another example in an off-centered strike of a 1949 Jefferson nickel! The FS nickel collector knows how difficult it is to locate one of these with 5 full steps and in high grade! As can be seen in the picture, this strike is very close to having 6 steps! How this could have occurred possibly lies in the answer to where the steps ended up opposite of the obverse during the miss-strike of the planchet? But this could hardly be true since the obverse and reverse dies where still in alignment during the strike process. My guess is, since the planchet was out of the collar, the resulting strike came with much more force! About 75 % of the planchetabsorbed the full force of the striking dies!

 

 

 

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The TGC’s need to reserve a place in the grading scales for fully struck modern coins. The long withstanding history on the way these coins have been collected throughout years should be enough reason why mint state 65 and higher coins need to be fully struck to receive those higher certified coin grades. The strike is much more important then whether or not the coin has steps! Every detail of the US Mint, Felix Schlag design needs to be on the Jefferson nickel coin. The US Mint went to great lengths to provide us with fully strucked nickels. The fact that most collectors can't locate them is not a reason to unjustifiably ignore these coins! The fact that they are rare and when they are located they need to be preservedfor the sake of history. But I do understand that many of you beginning FS nickels collectors are just learning the ropes with this series. And it obvious, that it will take some time before everyone including the TGCs to get their heads together before giving the full strike Jefferson nickel and those collectors the overdue respect they deserve! Leo

[Leothelion]

Here's a MS63 coin in a MS67 pcgs slab!

 

Leo

[Leothelion]

Here's another!

 

Leo

[Bruceswar]

Leo,

I will give you first one as overgraded... the 2nd as well.... but the first is far worse I woudl think.... Way to many hits for 67... It looks 64/65 to me.... and the 2nd one looks 66... just my opinion...

[Hoot]

Leo - You are a true fanatic.

 

Nice illustrations.

 

Hoot

[Leothelion]

Bruce

Both coins also lack detail in top of hair and windows on Monticello. Also check out the prices those crummy coins are fetching!

 

Leo

[Leothelion]

Bruce

Check out the obverse strike and condition of this 1945-P.

The reverse isn't much with the weak windows and damage to

the upper mm and letters.

 

Leo

[Bruceswar]

I know those prices are crazy..... but I can more agres with the grade of the last nickel even with the weaker strike than those 67's

[Leothelion]

FolksA few overgraded FS nickels are showing up again in one of Heritage's upcoming Signiture coin auctions but what else is news! The following coin is another inflated overgraded product of pcgs. With all those hits, this coin grades at best MS64!Pcgs must be market grading these coins when the submitter wants the coins relayed to an auction house like Heritage. There are several coins in that auction that are weakly struck, have too many marks or have the looks of having problems in the steps to be graded at the levels pcgs has asigned to these coins.I'm not cutting the collector down here but I am calling a foul here with such gross misrepresentation of the nickels themselves! And let's add the rip-off the novice collecter will be receiveing. Shame on pcgs!

 

 

 

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Leo