Cleaned coin covered up by PVC residue?

[Nutmeg Coin]

This coin was submitted to NGC for grading from a NH dealer who called it a nice Unc., an 1833 Bust 10c:

 

CertNumber=3747000-001

 

The early coin "expert" swore it was a no problem Unc. Bust dime so he was flabbergasted to hear that it graded as "cleaned", though I sent it directly from NH the day I picked it up to NGC. When it went into grading I was informed by NCS that it would benefit by conservation but would not grade as it was because of PVC. After conservation, the grading showed it to be "cleaned". How common is this sort, usually when NGC tells you a coin would benefit by conservation you get a # grade, no? And how often does PVC give the illusion of natural toning?

[Raisethis2]

I've never sent NCS a coin so take my words with a grain of salt but I'm pretty sure NCS basically says that even they can alter a coins surface so badly that NGC will not grade the coin. What might lurk underneath could have been there or not. either way, it's too far gone.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

The dealer said that it was not cleaned when he had it; I told him that I sent it to NGC in his flip and was informed that it needed to be conserved. He was adamant that it was an OK coin before. I told him that as far as I know they will use solvents like acetone but will not use brushes, etc, that would affect the surface and be seen as cleaned.

[ldhair]

PVC can hide problems. At this point I think you own the coin.

[RWB]

"He was adamant that it was an OK coin before."

 

Common excuse for the dealer not knowing; shifts the blame to you and it is impossible to refute without witnesses and or photos. If you want something you buy certified, have the dealer send it to NGC himself.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I was speaking with him today, he said he doesn't submit coins for grading except in exceptional circumstances because the grading services are a$$*****. He rarely goes to coin shows, he dropped some coins off at the Anacs booth though a couple months ago that he thought were rare varieties and came up empty. The problem with dealers who spend too much time in their own shops is they start believing their own BS.... Without real market awareness which comes from going to shows, looking through auction lots, interacting with other dealers, you never get the type of objectivity that comes from all the others out there who are sharper than you are in grading and properly evaluating coins.

[bochiman]

Typical conversation from a dealer that knows better than everyone else because what he thinks something should be will help his bottom line.

 

I have seen those types of dealers around here as well. I have also overheard them (they just ignore "commoners" at their tables when they talk, not quietly, about dealer stuff) tell each other which coins should be sent where as certain companies will not be as hard on problem coins or will grade much higher than they are (not NGC/PCGS but -tier TPGSs).

 

It can be very telling when they pull that stuff. Also, when they start name calling PCGS/NGC, it has usually been because their stuff gets called out and no-graded for the right reasons....which they don't like because they want to rip people with the higher prices.

 

Once I find out a dealer is that type of dealer, I avoid that dealer. I would prefer they get out of the business.

[James_OldeTowne]

The PVC situation really has nothing to do with what happened here. Rather, it's simply the case that after a coin has existed for 180 YEARS, there are outstanding odds that it's been cleaned a few times along the way. It's just the way it is.

 

Many times, cleaned coins of that age get certified anyway, because if the grading services turned them all away, there would be FAR fewer to go around.

 

I just never get too disappointed to learn that a 180 year old coin may have been mistreated at some point in it's "life". It happens.

[jpcienkus]

Typical conversation from a dealer that knows better than everyone else because what he thinks something should be will help his bottom line.

 

I have seen those types of dealers around here as well. I have also overheard them (they just ignore "commoners" at their tables when they talk, not quietly, about dealer stuff) tell each other which coins should be sent where as certain companies will not be as hard on problem coins or will grade much higher than they are (not NGC/PCGS but -tier TPGSs).

 

It can be very telling when they pull that stuff. Also, when they start name calling PCGS/NGC, it has usually been because their stuff gets called out and no-graded for the right reasons....which they don't like because they want to rip people with the higher prices.

 

Once I find out a dealer is that type of dealer, I avoid that dealer. I would prefer they get out of the business.

 

I agree with you.

 

I was at a show a couple weeks ago and one of the dealers was railing against NGC. I'd seen this dealer at a show last year. He was selling classic commems early at that show. So I asked him whether he had shifted his away from only commems. He said he bought a hoard of 1896 Morgans and had sent some to both NGC and PCGS for grading. He wasn't getting the grades he wanted out of NGC, so when those coins returned, he cracked them and sent them to PCGS. Said he got the grade he wanted. He claimed NGC was tougher at giving MS66/67 grades than PCGS. He was bad mouthing NGC because of it. There were others at his table too. I just smiled, nodded my head and moved on.

[e1cnr]

What was luster like before sending in?

 

cert pics

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

The "toning" looked decent enough to fool both me and the seller. Since acetone will not damage any coin apparently, it may be advisable to try a dip if there are any suspicious surface issues before submitting any given coin to grading.

 

 

[RWB]

"The problem with dealers who spend too much time in their own shops is they start believing their own BS." Or -- maybe they don't like the objective approach to what they are selling. Does that suggest something about this so-called "dealer?"

[Nutmeg Coin]

In his defense I will say he has had some decent material, but if what you get from people sellers is generally 50/50 in terms of gradable and non-gradable material, or properly graded and overgraded; you can't offer quality, so you start calling MS63 coins MS64 and MS65. And coins with minor problems that would prevent them from grading numerically you sell as gradable coins because of the $$$ benefit. He said he is in the market for HR Saints, so he must be making some serious money. He has been adamant he does not want to take any returns on raw coins, but this one he guaranteed would grade at least MS60, so now he has offered a trade of more raw coins to satisfy his guarantee, and I said I just want certified coins because of the risk issue. There are many raw coin sellers out there, I have seen some pretty transparent cons in that department. I will have to do better due diligence, trusting the quality control of dealers who have been supposedly expert numismatists for 50 years or more is no guarantee of proper 2014 quality control as the standards have gotten more strict if anything.

[coinman1794]

Typical conversation from a dealer that knows better than everyone else because what he thinks something should be will help his bottom line.

 

I have seen those types of dealers around here as well. I have also overheard them (they just ignore "commoners" at their tables when they talk, not quietly, about dealer stuff) tell each other which coins should be sent where as certain companies will not be as hard on problem coins or will grade much higher than they are (not NGC/PCGS but -tier TPGSs).

 

It can be very telling when they pull that stuff. Also, when they start name calling PCGS/NGC, it has usually been because their stuff gets called out and no-graded for the right reasons....which they don't like because they want to rip people with the higher prices.

 

Once I find out a dealer is that type of dealer, I avoid that dealer. I would prefer they get out of the business.

 

I agree with you.

 

I was at a show a couple weeks ago and one of the dealers was railing against NGC. I'd seen this dealer at a show last year. He was selling classic commems early at that show. So I asked him whether he had shifted his away from only commems. He said he bought a hoard of 1896 Morgans and had sent some to both NGC and PCGS for grading. He wasn't getting the grades he wanted out of NGC, so when those coins returned, he cracked them and sent them to PCGS. Said he got the grade he wanted. He claimed NGC was tougher at giving MS66/67 grades than PCGS. He was bad mouthing NGC because of it. There were others at his table too. I just smiled, nodded my head and moved on.

 

NGC standards have significantly tightened on pre-modern coinage in recent years. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

[coinman1794]

This coin was submitted to NGC for grading from a NH dealer who called it a nice Unc., an 1833 Bust 10c:

 

CertNumber=3747000-001

 

The early coin "expert" swore it was a no problem Unc. Bust dime so he was flabbergasted to hear that it graded as "cleaned", though I sent it directly from NH the day I picked it up to NGC. When it went into grading I was informed by NCS that it would benefit by conservation but would not grade as it was because of PVC. After conservation, the grading showed it to be "cleaned". How common is this sort, usually when NGC tells you a coin would benefit by conservation you get a # grade, no? And how often does PVC give the illusion of natural toning?

 

It is a very common occurrence for PVC and other residues build up on coins over time, hiding the original surfaces, which may show evidence of cleaning once revealed. Often, "toning" is not oxidized metal at all, but rather, hazy residues that have reacted to produce colors.

 

If they detected PVC, the coin absolutely would benefit from conservation, even if it revealed an old cleaning. PVC will etch and eat into the surface of the coin over time, making an old cleaning seem like a walk in the park.

 

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I saw the dealer I bought the raw coin from, thinking that he was going to try and trade out some more raw coins for this as his form of guarantee. Instead he wrote me a check and said:

 

 

He stood with his story that the Bust dime had great toning that was stripped away. I guess he doesn't remember having a similar coin where a dip in a solvent like acetone removed the "beautiful" fake toning.