What do you think of KP's World catalogues??

[World Colonial]

My comments were a generalization. Let me take your points one at a time.

 

First on the designs, I was taking the draped bust as an example. The primary point I was trying to make is that the US series has a much bigger design variety if you start from the inception of the US Mint in 1793 or especially if you include colonial, commemorative, pattern and territorial coinage. I believe this contributes a lot to the US-centric view of many or most US collectors though I have never actually discussed it with anyone. In many though hardly all other countries, the variety is just a lot less though of course the coins frequently date much further back.

 

Probably because I started with US coinage, I still think highly of some of the designs that others do not. I like early US federal designs (most of them) up to about 1838 and some others such as the WLH and Buffalo Nickel. I do not care much at all for any of the circulating designs in use now (I consider them artistically mediocre if not awful) and I think some others like the Franklin half and Morgan dollar are really mediocre also.

 

On the world coin side, in totality, I think there are better designs elsewhere but not when limited to a single country in most instances. I really like the Queen Victoria Young Head and King George V (KGV) crowned portrait (the one used in Australia and South Africa but the one in New Zealand less so). The Spanish colonial pillar design is probably my favorite of any coin and it is one of my primary series.

 

The comment you are making about European collector habits, I have heard that from others but I do not belong to a coin club. I would also say that part of it is because the US is such a large country and people on average tend to travel less elsewhere (only 20% of American citizens purportedly have a passport), that I suspect the two (travel and coin collecting habits) are both culturally related. The collectors I know in South Africa, they do pursue others coins but their own are definitely what they focus on.

 

I suspect (but do not actually know) that if most US coins were affordable, that more collectors elsewhere would collect those they actually like. But the fact is that they are not (no matter what US collectors may believe to the contrary), so they don't.

 

Despite being a collector for 38 years, I have had very limited interactions with other collectors. I agree with you that the experience you describe is a big turnoff. I will admit that sometimes my posts make it look like I "look down" on US coins but that is not exactly correct. I find the prices nonsensical and the way US collectors collect equally so. While I understand (more or less) why US collectors have the practices they currently use (that is, due to money and the need to specialize due to the exorbitant prices so many of them currently fetch), from a collecting standpoint, I find them nonsensical. I find paying such high prices and wide price spreads for such minimal differences in quality and for so many coins which are actually very ordinary ridiculous. Its why I abandoned them in 1998 when I resumed collecting.

 

On your price comments, i agree with you generically though for somewhat different reasons. In an earlier post, I mentioned to Joesabet my opinion on the economic prospects going forward which I think are going to be mostly a negative for along time to come. I expect most people (including most Americans) to become poorer or a lot poorer for the indefinite future.

 

I also think that demographics are going to have a negative impact but its more because of the changing composition of the population than just aging. Hispanics are projected to be the fastest growing group. Assuming for the sake of discussion that a significant increase in the collector population is going to come from this group, I expect a much lower proportion of them to collect US coins at all, much less so that those they are replacing. I believe they will have a larger preference for Latin coinage subject to the significant limitation I mentioned in this thread earlier that the coins are simply not available to the same extent as their US counterparts.

 

But even where they are not, I do not see that these collectors are going to necessarily choose US coins, whether classics or moderns. And given that US coins cost so much more, I certainly do not expect them to pay existing prices either.

 

Someone on the PCGS forum once mentioned that the US is the Roman Empire of the modern period. I agree and partly for this reason, I expect the better and more desirable coins to always remain in demand but not at the price spreads that exist today. Given my economic expectations, I expect most of the price gap to close by US coins losing value, at least when measured in real purchasing power. I expect an increasing proportion of traditional collectors in the future to only be able to pay less.

 

 

[Mohawk]

World colonial,

You brought up some more great points, and I'd say that we agree on pretty much all of the major points, even if we do so for slightly different reasons. I love friendly discussions and debates like this, and this thread has been great!!

 

I never thought about the demographic shift toward a Hispanic majority.......that certainly will have an effect, no doubt. I suspect, as you do as well, that collectors emerging from this demographic will feel a stronger pull to Latin American coins than American coinage. Speaking for myself, I'm American by birth, but my background is German and Turkish. My mother, who is my German parent, was the first of her family to be born in America. My Turkish father was the second of his family to be born in America as he has an older brother. Both of my families are recent arrivals to America in the great scheme of things. My paternal grandmother's family arrived in 1930. My paternal grandfather came over in 1947. My mom's parents came in 1948. I grew up with huge ties to both cultures, and today German and Turkish coins are my two most important numismatic pursuits. I've been fortunate to know quite a few Hispanic-Americans in my time and I know that many of them keep strong ties with their ancestral cultures and homelands as well. I can see many collectors in that group gravitating to the coins of their ancestral cultures as well.

 

I also like what you said about travel habits of many Americans in comparison to travel habits in Europe. You're dead on there. It's easier for Europeans to travel to a number of nations whereas the US is a huge nation and it's not a matter of driving a few hours or so to another nation like it is in Europe. And I think you're correct, it does play a role. Many Americans simply travel around America. Some Americans can spend a whole lifetime and never leave it. Some may not have the resources ( I know I certainly do not have the resources to travel as I would like at this point in my life. Graduate School is horrendously expensive!!! But hopefully it will give me the resources to travel in the long run) Others, sadly, have no desire to go experience another land and another culture. But it's natural that someone with deep American roots would gravitate strongly to American coins. I certainly follow my roots with my collecting choices in many ways, but I do collect nations that I have no ties to as well, like Chile and Japan. But that's not to say that there aren't American coins I like. There are, a few. Mainly, I like the Peace Dollar and have given some thought recently to collecting them in some way in the scope of my larger international collection. But the pricing issues give me some hesitation, that and the fact that I'd like my Turkish and German collections to be a bit more mature before I divert some of my limited resources to a project outside of that scope. I also agree with your thoughts on both the US designs you enjoy and those you find lacking.......my list is pretty much exactly the same as yours

 

In closing, you gave me some great food for thought my friend. Very good points, and it adds some layers to the big picture that I didn't have before.

[joes2001]

Nice to hear back from you Tom. That's cool that you have a job worked out any everything. That's really the way to go. I sometimes have trouble with my inventory on here. The other day I was trying to add some world coins on a competitive registry but the coins don't show up. I'm not sure why my coins aren't available on this screen. I also couldn't add a Newfoundland coin to my inventory. When I search, Newfoundland isn't an option, at least the way I'm typing it or something. Other than that, I recently got scammed on craigslist. I did a post in US coins. Please check it out and see the pics. I feel kind of dumb, having gone through this, but at least I'll learn from it. Thanks and I hope you're doing well.

[joes2001]

world colonial,

 

I would like to discuss something I thought of when I read this response of yours:

 

"This in my opinion accounts for the narrow specialization practices and the focus (obsession really) with trivial differences in actual quality represented by two different MS grades. Outside the US, I suspect that either no one or almost no one who does not follow US collection practices thinks the same way."

 

I was thinking of cleaning and US coins vs. international ones. I've heard that people, let's say England, don't care as much about cleaned coins as do collectors in the US. I experience this all the time here. For instance, when I go to a dealer and sell off some mercury dimes, if they look a tad cleaned but have excellent details, the dealer only pays bullion. I know US coin collectors once believed in and practiced cleaning, even abrasive kinds. I've even read advice to do these kinds of practices in older ANA journals or something like that. I assume other collectors around the world appreciate well-kept coins, but I don't know how they value, trade, and sell lightly and more abrasively cleaned coins. Do you know about this? Thanks.

[World Colonial]

The cultural comment I just made on collector preferences is an assumption but I believe a reasonable one. I have no direct knowledge of it. The reason I have it though is because today's America emphasizes cultural differences much more than in the past. This has both its "upside" and "downside" in my opinion but in the coin realm, I believe it probably does and will manifest itself in a larger number of US based collectors collecting the coins of their "home" culture, whatever that happens to be. The fact that US coins are so much more expensive only makes it more likely that more collectors will adopt this practice in the future.

 

Speaking for myself, I am an American citizen but was not born here. I moved here when I was 10. Initially, I did collect and prefer US coinage but when I resumed collecting in 1998, even at those prior prices, I "did the math" and saw that trying to accumulate any US centric collection of significance was pointless.

 

Since then, my financial position has improved substantially but the prices of the coins I would like to buy have increased at least as much if not more. And though my standards have certainly increased since then, I am not talking about buying any great rarities or anything near it.

 

I am talking about "ordinary" coins like drapped bust and capped bust halves. Back in the late 1970's, my favorite coin was the former because it was a coin that I thought I could eventually afford to buy. Well, today I can easily do so but I am not going to pay $1000+ for a VF or $2000+ for an XF because I do not believe this coin is worth that price from a numismatic standpoint. Its simply too common, I consider it "dead money" at that price and there are better coins in my series and others that cost the same and even much less.

 

So when I realized this, I took the Krause manual and looked through to see what I could afford, not knowing then at the time how wrong it was of course. My primary series are Bolivia decimals, South Africa Union and Spanish colonial pillar minors. I also have small accumulations of others such as a partial mint state set of 1790 Austrian Netherlands Insurrection issues and at least one AU/MS specimen from each mint of the Spanish Colonial "Lion and Castle" quarter real (except for the "PN" from Colombia). This is the coin in my avatar. I picked the first two series because I lived in those countries and the others just because I liked the designs.

 

There are also many other coins I like but do not collect. Recently, my brother had a daughter and I would like to get her into coins when she is older so that I will have someone to give my collection. So I will probably use this as a reason to branch out into other areas, like Canadian (since they live there) and maybe even ancients.

 

The point of my short story is that if US coins were more affordable, I might never have collected anything else even though I have no regrets that I did so. Though the specifics differ, I believe my experience is not that unsual because the affordability of US coinage is an issue for many current and certainly potential future collectors, whether most US collectors want to admit it or not.

 

In a prior post on this thread here, cladking mentioned that when clad was introduced, that interest in collecting declined in this country. I believe this is true but not primarily because of the metal change but because of the substantial price increases which occurred for classics later with it. I have several old "Red Books" from the 1960's to the 1980's. Looking at any number of prices in the 1965 and 1972 editions and comparing them to my recollection in the 1977 edition I used to own, the prices of a large number of them exploded and almost certainly priced a large number of then current collectors out of what they used to and actually wanted to buy. Some probably moved "down the food chain" to cheaper and less desirable coins but many probably quit altogether. The discussion we are having now with world coinage is simply another version of what I believe happened 40 years ago and its no mystery to me at all.

[World Colonial]

My experience is the same as yours and its one of the reasons I have declined to buy some coins I otherwise would have liked to buy. Here are a few examples.

 

On one occassion, I exchanged emails with either the proprietor of Calico or Cayon, both based in Spain. I was inquiring about the surface preservation and color on a few of their lots and I was explaining the financial considerations here in the United States between "details" and numerically graded coins. His response was that he (and presumably many of his buyers) did not always agree with the standards in the US or those used by NGC and PCGS. I have bought a few pillar coins from both these firms and one other Spanish auction house with mixed success. The problem I have (of course) is that I run the risk of buying a "dog" bidding strong and being outbid with a low bid. I never paid much for the coins I bought (up to $400 I think) but I am not going to consistently pay multiples of what the coins are actually worth bidding absentee and I have no one to represent me because its not worth their time. (I already tried it with limited success.)

 

The second occassion was with London Coins in the UK where I called and had someone describe the lot to me over the phone. When I received it, the coin was awful. I complained and they were kind enough to return my money.

 

In the first instance, I can see their point of view but unfortunately, these dual standards make it uneconomical to buy coins I would otherwise like to buy. Personally, while I of course prefer coins which meet the US criteria in use at this time, I don't agree that an otherwise decent or appealing coin should be financially penalized as much as it is in the US. In many instances, there isn't anything really wrong with these coins and I find this practice as arbitrary as the irrelevant differences between two proximate or near MS grades.

 

In the second instance, I cannnot explain it. Regardless of differences in tastes, I do not see that any British collector would have liked that (SA ZAR) coin.

[World Colonial]

I wanted to make one other point which I think is related to your prior comments and if not, certainly what was discussed earlier in this thread.

 

In evaluating the relative prices between US and most world (or even ancient) coins, there are two ways to look at it. Either the prices of US coins are (mostly) unusualy high and an aberation. Or, the prices of world coins are abnormally low.

 

While there are (of course) no absolutes, which one is it? My answer is the first because it is almost exclusively in the US where coins sell for prices which are "high". Elsewhere, most coins even in the better or best TPG candidate grades sell for relatively nominal prices.

 

The reason for this is also cultural. Outside the United States, there aren't that many coins which are bought as an alternative "investment". Canada, Australia, the UK, South Africa, China and Russia seem to have prices higher or much higher than others but still mostly much lower than the US. In other markets such as Mexico, prices are very selectively strong but not otherwise.

 

This may not be (and likely is not) the only reason but regardless, the fact of the matter is that most buyers outside the United States are not used to paying "high" prices so they don't. I suspect that in many instances it has actually been buyers in the US who have been primarily responsible for pushing the prices of many of the better coin higher.

[cladking]

In a prior post on this thread here, cladking mentioned that when clad was introduced, that interest in collecting declined in this country. I believe this is true but not primarily because of the metal change but because of the substantial price increases which occurred for classics later with it. I have several old "Red Books" from the 1960's to the 1980's. Looking at any number of prices in the 1965 and 1972 editions and comparing them to my recollection in the 1977 edition I used to own, the prices of a large number of them exploded and almost certainly priced a large number of then current collectors out of what they used to and actually wanted to buy. Some probably moved "down the food chain" to cheaper and less desirable coins but many probably quit altogether. The discussion we are having now with world coinage is simply another version of what I believe happened 40 years ago and its no mystery to me at all.

 

There's simply no question that the introduction of clad was the cause of the lack of interest in the new coinage. This happened in one country after another all over the world. The problem in the US was severely compounded by the mint and Congress blaming collectors for the coin shortage at the time. Concurrently with the switchover they also took numerous steps specifically to punish coin collectors. The coin market simply collapsed and collector populations began shrinking and contyinued to shrink until 1998 with the states quarters program.

[cladking]

But regardless, for any given budget, the world coin collector can easily buy better and far more significant coins for the same money than someone can from any US series. By my standards, there aren't any US coins of real distinction that are within reach of most US collectors.

 

This in my opinion accounts for the narrow specialization practices and the focus (obsession really) with trivial differences in actual quality represented by two different MS grades. Outside the US, I suspect that either no one or almost no one who does not follow US collection practices thinks the same way.

 

So given what I described, why exactly would any significant number of collectors outside the United States choose to pay existing prices for US coins when they can buy a real rarity for so much less? Except for US expats and a handfull who are "investing" in coins and need a liquid market, the answer is that they will not.

 

 

I strongly disagree. There are numerous US coins that can be had for a song and they aren't all moderns. Indeed, they aren't even necessarily "coins" per se. The fact is that outside of 15 or 20 popular US series most coins simply go wanting. This isn't to say that popular series are overpriced merely that they have very high prices relative to bargains in other US and world coins.

 

Most collectors just don't notice opportunities to collect scarce and rare US coins even when it bites them on the nose. For instance, many individual states issued their own currency for the purpose of paying sales tax. These "coins" were being used as money so the federal government shut them down. Today almost all of these are "common" but they are common only because there is no demand. Some of these are very difficult to locate in uncirculated condition and incredibly most are rare to non-existent in Gem. It would hardly be surprising to pick up a significant scarcity, possibly even in Gem, for less than a dollar, or even less than a dime.

 

The fact is there is a beaten path and this path is far far narrower than the known world. People should collect what they like but to dismiss all US numismatics because an '84-S Morgan dollar will cost you a few grand in only XF is very short sighted. Perhaps with the great wealth and demand in the US this coin is really worth this much and the price of this coin has no bearing on the value of a scarce three cent nickel or a rare modern which can be had cheaply.

[World Colonial]

In a prior post on this thread here, cladking mentioned that when clad was introduced, that interest in collecting declined in this country. I believe this is true but not primarily because of the metal change but because of the substantial price increases which occurred for classics later with it. I have several old "Red Books" from the 1960's to the 1980's. Looking at any number of prices in the 1965 and 1972 editions and comparing them to my recollection in the 1977 edition I used to own, the prices of a large number of them exploded and almost certainly priced a large number of then current collectors out of what they used to and actually wanted to buy. Some probably moved "down the food chain" to cheaper and less desirable coins but many probably quit altogether. The discussion we are having now with world coinage is simply another version of what I believe happened 40 years ago and its no mystery to me at all.

 

There's simply no question that the introduction of clad was the cause of the lack of interest in the new coinage. This happened in one country after another all over the world. The problem in the US was severely compounded by the mint and Congress blaming collectors for the coin shortage at the time. Concurrently with the switchover they also took numerous steps specifically to punish coin collectors. The coin market simply collapsed and collector populations began shrinking and contyinued to shrink until 1998 with the states quarters program.

 

My comments were not clear. I am not talking about interest in clad but in collecting generally. If the number of collectors decreased as I understand and it was substantial, I believe that the price increases also had a lot to do with it. Its what I think also happened in the last decade with South African coins. The price increases I am describing are also a fact though I cannot prove it had the impact I claim. What I am telling you is that if these price increases had not been so great, that I believe fewer or far fewer collectors would have stopped collecting, regardless of whether clad was in circulation or not.

 

What you are describing would have impacted primarily those who collected out of pocket change. It would not have made any difference to those who were paying any premiums worth mentioning. The price increases that I recall were on the order of five or even 10 times in less than or within a decade, though I do not know if the "Red Book" values were the same as the actual retail prices.

[World Colonial]

I strongly disagree. There are numerous US coins that can be had for a song and they aren't all moderns. Indeed, they aren't even necessarily "coins" per se. The fact is that outside of 15 or 20 popular US series most coins simply go wanting. This isn't to say that popular series are overpriced merely that they have very high prices relative to bargains in other US and world coins.

 

Most collectors just don't notice opportunities to collect scarce and rare US coins even when it bites them on the nose. For instance, many individual states issued their own currency for the purpose of paying sales tax. These "coins" were being used as money so the federal government shut them down. Today almost all of these are "common" but they are common only because there is no demand. Some of these are very difficult to locate in uncirculated condition and incredibly most are rare to non-existent in Gem. It would hardly be surprising to pick up a significant scarcity, possibly even in Gem, for less than a dollar, or even less than a dime.

 

The fact is there is a beaten path and this path is far far narrower than the known world. People should collect what they like but to dismiss all US numismatics because an '84-S Morgan dollar will cost you a few grand in only XF is very short sighted. Perhaps with the great wealth and demand in the US this coin is really worth this much and the price of this coin has no bearing on the value of a scarce three cent nickel or a rare modern which can be had cheaply.

 

Are you actually trying to tell me that the US material you are describing is viewed as equivalent to many of the world coins such as those I collect or others like them from a numismatic standpoint? I am not even talking about the Bolivia decimal series (which I still think is better than what you are describing) but the pillars, Spanish and Mexican coins I buy. Because if you are, I don't think hardly anyone is going to agree with that, whether they favor the same coins I do or not. You weren't that specific but almost no one really wants much of the material you seem to be describing.

 

In prior posts, I have compared the pillar minors as being comparable to early US federal coinage of the same size. So for example, my 1755 Peru NGC MS-65 1/2 real, its basically no lower on the numismatic scale than a flowing hair or drapped bust half dime in comparable quality. Its probably actually much scarcer than most of them certainly as a date (I believe all except the 1802) and maybe even as a type coin. This denomination or mint is not widely collected, but that is at least partly due to the difficulty in finding them at all because it isn't an obscure design or series,

 

No, what I was describing in my prior post was something that any relatively large number of collectors from either the US or elsewhere are actually going to want, not the obscure material you seem to be referencing. And by this standard, there is no doubt that what I am describing is factually correct. With higher priced coins, the discrepancy is even greater. A world coin buyer can buy numismatic equivalents to some seven figure US coins for possibly as little as $25,000 (or even less) given that there are so many US coins in this price range today.

 

With the US Mint issues such as the or 3CN, I don't dislike these coins but even these are not particularly cheap given their scarcity except by US standards and then only in circulated or lower MS grades. And despite their relatively low values by US standards, there are still many world coins that are better or much better to any impartial observer that can be bought for the same or less.

 

The same applies to the US modern rarities you have described in the past. These are all either "conditional" rarities, errors or die varieties. Either few or none outside of modern specialists like you are going to see these coins as equivalent to the world coins I am describing either.

[joes2001]

Yeah, I'm curious as to what mordern US coins are rare. The only kind I can think of are condition rarities, or maybe gold commems.

[Mohawk]

Hey Joe,

Good to hear from you as well. Don't feel dumb about the scam. It's happened to many of us! I'm sorry to hear that it happened to you though. I had a pretty bad one happen to me a while back myself. I bought a fake, key date 1336 yr 1 (1918 in Western dating) Ottoman gold 100 Kurush once. It was actually gold......but not nearly enough of it!! I sent it into NGC and everything, and it came back bodybagged with the wonderful Not Genuine tag on it. It was at least made of gold......but not enough!!! An Ottoman gold coin should be 91.6% gold. I had this one tested by my old boss and it was something like 84%. I took a big hit on that one as I ended up selling it to be scrapped. And scrap on an 84% gold coin that's about the size of a quarter ounce piece certainly did not take much of the hit off of the price I paid for an Ottoman key date. It's something that can happen to any of us. Just chalk it up to a learning experience and shake it off. That's what I did. The defeats and the victories are part of any pursuit. I'm sorry to hear about your inventory problems on here as well. I actually haven't experienced anything like that myself, so I sadly do not know how to advise you. Have you emailed NGC about it yet? That's what I would do. They should be able to help you out. As for finding Newfoundland, I believe that it's listed under Canada-Maritime Provinces. Sorry I wasn't more help about your inventory issue, but I'm very glad to see that you're adding your collection onto the Registry. I look forward to checking it out when you get it all posted!!!!

Until next we talk, I hope that you are well and Best Regards!!

~Tom

[Mohawk]

Wow....looks like I missed out on some action here!!!! More interesting discussion to be sure. One thing I'd like to say is while I love any numismatist finding their way to coins outside of those of their homelands, it kind of makes me sad that non-US coins seem to be second banana to many American collectors on here currently, something to fall back to when one feels priced out of US coins or something like that. It's definitely not the case in the younger crowd in my own backyard, but it seems to be a factor here. Ah well, no sense in my getting melancholy over it. I do the opposite thing, I suppose. I'm considering a Peace Dollar collection of some sort to add some more international zest to my larger collection, but it's coming in behind my Reichskreditkassen sets, my Ottoman Nickel Paras and my Chilean Libertads in that order. And as long as collectors keep expanding their numismatic pursuits and are happy in the hobby, I'm happy and I'm happy for them.

 

But onto the discussion!! I found the comments about the replacing of silver with base metals in both US and non-US coinage quite interesting. The hobby did decline at that point in time, but for a variety of reasons. As for US collectors, the US Mint's one-step-short of persecution certainly played a role. But I think that worldwide, the first base-metal versions of many coins simply were not as attractive as the silver issues they replaced. One of the most common go-to replacement materials many nations went to were various nickel alloys. As for myself, nickel is probably my favorite coinage metal and it can be stunningly beautiful when a nickel coin is made well. But nickel is very hard. It's even hard when alloyed with copper or other metals, and many mints had a difficult time with it when the time came to use it to replace the much softer silver alloys in the 1960's. This led to weak strikes, die damage and many other things that lowered the quality and appearance of these first silver replacement issues. Some nations, such as Germany, Turkey (in the form of the Ottoman Empire) and Canada had a better go of it as they had used pure nickel for coinage in the early 20th Century. And they all did a great job with it, particularly the Ottoman Empire. The 4 nickel Para series struck in the early 20th Century are among the most beautiful coins struck by either the Ottoman State or the Turkish Republic. But they are exceptions to the general rule. Overall, it took many mints a few years to get the nickel alloy coins up to the appearance standards of the silver versions, and by then many collectors were lost for good.

 

Also, for many collectors, the end of precious metal coinage spelled the end of "real coinage". I think that this is mainly a factor for older collectors who remember the switchover. As cladking said in an earlier response, base-metal coinage is the normal state of affairs for younger collectors who were born and raised after the silver era was done and gone. I know I don't factor precious metal content in when selecting a series to collect. None of my three highest priority numismatic pursuits contain any precious metal whatsoever. That's not to say I don't like silver. I do. I enjoy Ottoman silver, German silver and Peace Dollars are the one US regular issue that I really like. But I don't let lack of silver put me off of a coin. And I'd say most collectors born in the mid-1970's and later follow this pattern. How can we miss something that we don't remember? Silver is always something we bought, something that we rarely, if ever, got from banks or a cash register.

 

But with US coins......the problem is a little deeper. All of the decent designs are from the silver era. By the time the switchover happened in the US, one was stuck with the Lincoln Memorial Cent, the Jefferson Nickel, the Roosevelt Dime, the Washington Quarter and Kennedy Half Dollar. In 1971, the Eisenhower Dollar appeared and finished the parade of mid to late 20th Century Ugly. In my opinion, and this is only my opinion, the last US coin with any real aesthetic appeal was the Walking Liberty Half Dollar, which was killed in 1947 in favor of the absolutely hideous Franklin Half Dollar. So I'd say the lack of any appealing designs ( which actually happened long before the end of silver) played just as strong of a role in the decline of the hobby after silver went away in America.

 

I'd also like to pose the question as to which modern US coins are rare as well. I'm not meaning to have an attitude or anything. I honestly do not know which modern US issues would be considered rare, and I cannot think of any that would qualify as such. I actually have trouble thinking of many US coins that would be considered rare when compared to many World issues I collect. For example, the survival rates of several of the German Reichskreditkassen coins of both denominations I collect are estimated in the triple digits, some in the double. The 1941-F (Stuttgart Mint) 10 Reichpfennig coin has two known survivors. There are rare US coins, no doubt. Things like the 1913 Liberty Nickel, 1804 Silver Dollar and the St. Gaudens Double Eagles from the 1930's. I'd never dispute the rarity of those, ever. They ARE rare. But there aren't many other US coins that I'd consider to truly be rare. Take the 1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent with it's mintage of 484,000 coins. It's a key date due to demand, no doubt, but to call it rare is an absolute joke!! It was saved from day one, and someone with the resources could buy rolls of them every day if they so desired. And that's only one example. So many US key dates are like this. My 1941-A Reichskreditkassen 10 Reichspfennig coin is the only one I've ever seen offered for sale in years of searching. Every photo, aside from 2, I've ever found in searching is of MY exact coin ( it's been around, in many collections. And it has a couple identifying features, like the smallest spot of zinc rust on the reverse that help identify it ). So that's 3 examples that I've been able to confirm exist. I know of a prominent dealer of Third Reich coins who has been in the business for well over a decade, and has strong connections all over Europe, who has never owned a 1941-A 10 Reichspfennig Reichskreditkassen and he's seen one......guess which one. I have a hard time thinking of many US coins that would stack up against that. world colonials examples are also great in showing this issue.

 

Well....it's 2am in my little corner on NY, and it's time for me to shut up and go to bed Sorry about another essay on this topic, but it is a great discussion!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[World Colonial]

Yeah, I'm curious as to what mordern US coins are rare. The only kind I can think of are condition rarities, or maybe gold commems.

 

US gold commemoratives are not really that rare either, not except as an MS or PR 70 and then we are talking about "grade rarity" all over again. Otherwise, you can buy these coins at any time. No coin which can be bought on demand can remotely be considered rare.

 

From my experience on this board and reading the PCGS forum, US collectors have a completely different working defintion of scarcity and rarity. Rarity is only relative and not absolute though there are some coins that I believe every collector will agree are actually rare.

 

Otherwise, it basically comes down to what one or most collectors wants or considers acceptable. In the US, this is first evaluated using the TPG grade and secondly, by various specialities which I have mentioned numerous times in this thread. These are die varieties, errors, special designation strikes and toned coins.

 

Except for die varities and errors, non-US collectors do not use the others or if they do, I have never heard of it. Collecting by TPG grade is very limited outside the United States. Its predominant in South Africa and seems to be somewhat popular with a few others series such as maybe Canada and some Australian coins now based upon the PCGS pop report and the prior threads discussing those 'conditonal" rarity 1957 and 1958 shillings.

 

The primary reason I do not believe this type of collecting is popular at all outside the US is because the coins are so much cheaper and scarcer. Finding many of these coins is hard enough without creating artificial definitions of scarcity as is done here in the US. And since many more coins are available to many more collectors, specialization isn't necessary from a financial aspect either. Its the affordability issue with US coins that I believe increases the appeal of this type of collecting and the fact that it has developed far more extensively since the TPG era seems to support it.

 

[World Colonial]

I did not start collecting until 1975, so cladking would be in a better position to see firsthand what happened at the time. Since I understand that a large proportion of collectors acquired their coins (those most US collectors currently call "classics") from circulation, I can see how the switch from silver impacted the tendency to collect, but only or mostly for those who could not afford to buy something else.

 

In my last post where I addressed this topic, I presented the price increases which occurred shortly after the switchover as another reason. From what I know, these did not occur immediately but they did within a relatively short period of time, especially between 1970 or 1972 and 1977 or the end of the 1970's when the metals boom peaked.

 

Now, I do see a correlation between the two since the currency debasement led or at least contributed to both, but they would have had a different impact depending upon what you collected at the time. I do not see that anyone who was willing and able to pay substantial premiums (for the price structure at that time) would have stopped collecting just because of the introduction of clad, disproportionately only those generically considered casual collectors today.

 

Except for a few series, I also do not believe and see no evidence that this is the primary reason that circulating moderns are less popular than their predecessors today. These exceptions are the Washington quarter, FDR dime, Jefferson nickel and presumably the Kennedy half since the design did not change in 1965 and in the instance of the 5C, not even the metal content.

 

Otherwise, I don't believe the metal content really has that much to do with it. Collectors apparently didn't like the designs then as much as the immediately preceding "classic" designs and they still don't today. The primary reason for the lack of popularity is the perceived artistic mediocrity and inferiority of the designs. Moreover, I don't believe anyone can present any compelling case whatsoever that this is going to change in the future either - certainly not within the lifetime of someone my age - because the correlation between age and collector preferences is at most a weak one and secondary to numerous other factors.

 

As you correctedly pointed out, there are many base metal designs which preceded this era (as in before 1965) which are popular both in and out of the United States. On average, I do not believe that they are as popular as those with gold and silver but if so, this was probably true both before and after the removal of silver from circulation. For example, silver dollars and crown sized coins are definitely more popular than minors today and I am not aware that this wasn't true in the past either.

 

As for outside influences, since I do not have much direct contact with other collectors, I am not in the best position to know. All I can tell you is that for myself, aside from the financial side, I do not give a hoot whether anyone else likes or approves of the coins I collect or not. I suspect that this is also true of most though not all collectors.

 

As for the rarity question, please see my reply to Joesabet.

[joes2001]

Tom,

Nice to hear from you. I think nickel is a good metal, but I find it troublesome a lot. Many of the indian head nickels and Liberty Head nickels I run across have that blue corrosion/toning stuff on them. Usually acetone wont even help. But maybe this problem has more to do with the copper than the 25% nickel. I enjoy aluminum coins, especially because they are quite resistant to corrosion. I thought I read that they develop a patina overtime that fights corrosion or something. Sometimes when I get a world proof or mint set that has some ugly toned coins, the aluminum ones are pristine.

 

What kind of peace dollar set are you looking to build? Raw, graded, high grades, etc.? I was thinking of getting a silver dollar in MS65 and peace dollars are a tad cheaper than morgans, but both are pretty high at this grade (around 140-175).

 

I think you're right about the people losing interest when the silver was taken out of coins in the US. The designs staying the same definitely seems like a factor here. I also think as mintages increased substantially around this time, collectors started looking more at the conditional rarities rather than mintage ones. One area I'd like to mention that is often overlooked i think are the SMS sets from 65-67. I was looking at the priceguide for cameo ones and the values are nice at 66 or so and above. These cameo coins are quite scarce, when I look at sales of them and also when I think of all the sets I've looked at. I guess this is still a conditional kind of rarity, but at least it's two (the high grade, and the cameo appearance). It seems like a pretty cool area. I won't even go into the ultra cameo coins here because their values are several hundreds of dollars.

 

Take care

[World Colonial]

I think you're right about the people losing interest when the silver was taken out of coins in the US. The designs staying the same definitely seems like a factor here. I also think as mintages increased substantially around this time, collectors started looking more at the conditional rarities rather than mintage ones.

 

I would be curious to know how long a period this decline required to become apparent. Personally, I do not believe it was immediate because if it was, then I do not see that hardly any of these prior collectors ever would have paid any substantial premiums later anyway, regardless of what they collected.

 

When I moved to the US in late 1975, I believe silver was in the vicinity of $5 an ounce. (I distinctly recall silver at $5.25 and gold $126 in February 1976.) Between 1965 and 1972 after which is when I believe the price increases I mentioned really started to accelerate, the price of silver was $3 or less.

 

This means that someone who had been collecting out of pocket change would have had to pay maybe as much as 3X face value for many (if not most) of the same coins; maybe slightly more for those where the supply decreased as a result of melting. I do not see this as much of a deterrent except to the causual collector.

 

The mintages, I'm not sure they had much of an impact either. Yes, they were larger but even those prior to 1965 were hardly low, except for some such as the 1955 and 1958 quarters and halves (I believe about 3MM to 7MM) and then only by US standards.

 

To my knowledge, collecting by grade (including "conditional" rarities) did not really become popular until either with or right before the TPG era. My first recollection of numerical grades was in a Coin World article in 1979 where I saw an add for Morgan dollars up to a 65. I never heard of this concept (either then or now) being practiced in the 1960's or to the mid-70's. I have read posts here that selectively collectors paid substantial premiums (for the time) for "gems" as I believe cladking stated he did in this thread in an earlier post but I doubt it had an impact except in isolation because of communication limitations at the time. (Few would have known of it.) Otherwise, US coins were bought and sold mostly as world coins are now.

 

This is part of what I was attempting to explain in earlier posts. If you were (likely one of the few) collectors of high or ultra-high grade material at the time (1965 to early 1970's at least), you could have bought late classics that today cost thousands or maybe even tens of thousands for nominal amounts, as in $5 or $10, maybe even less. I do not have my old "Red Books" with me, but there are any number of other coins today selling for hundreds or thousands of dollars which sold for a pittance, even accounting for price changes and income differentials. That 1930-S PCGS MS-65 FH SLQ I mentoned earlier, it was probably $20 in 1972 and less than $10 in 1965 versus the recent $675.

 

[Mohawk]

Hey Joe,

How's it going? I'm doing well over here. Nickel can be troublesome, you are absolutely right!! While I know nearly nothing about US 5 Cent pieces personally, my girlfriend does collect Buffalo Nickels, and I've definitely seen what you are talking about. That blue can be beautiful, but it can also be absolutely horrible if it's too dark.....it can obscure the details of your coin. Here's a weird thing I've noticed on the topic of copper nickel as well. Ottoman Empire Nickel 40 Para coins are one of my top priority numismatic pursuits, ranking up there with my Reichskreditkassen sets. In 1916, the Ottomans switched from a pure nickel composition for the 40 Para to a Copper-Nickel alloy to save a little nickel for war needs. There are 3 years that these coins were issued: 1916, 1917 and 1921. I've looked at many examples of each date and I've never seen an Ottoman C/N 40 Para tone with the dark blue seen on the US 5 Cent pieces. They tone, but they do so lightly and attractively 90% of the time. I'm honestly wondering if it's something with the actual alloys used by both the US and the Ottoman Empire. That's one fact I've never been able to find, what was the exact percentage of copper and nickel in the Ottoman 40 Para alloy. Pure nickel coins also don't seem to have the problems in toning that the US copper-nickel coins do. In my experience when they do tone, they almost always do so lightly and very attractively.

 

As for aluminum, you are 100% correct. Aluminum forms a thin layer of oxide that actually protects the metal from further oxidation and corrosion, provided it doesn't keep getting banged around. In circulation, the oxide layer is disrupted numerous times when the coin is hit or scratched. I have many German aluminum coins, and they're some of the most beautiful coins I own. The Third Reich aluminum 50 Reichspfennig coins are a lot of fun in high grade as you can actually find many of the dates in proof like condition with some hunting, and they're stunningly beautiful in this condition. And the light oxide layer does not disrupt the proof like character either.

 

As for the Peace Dollars, well, I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to take those on. I know I won't be throwing a lot of money into them until my Reichskreditkassen sets are a bit more mature. As I stated before, it's extremely difficult to trade US for World stuff, particularly really great stuff like the Reichskreditkassen coins. I know that if a 1940-B 10 Reichspfennig or 1940-E 5 Reichspfennig comes up for sale and I don't have the money for it because I bought a 1928 Peace Dollar, I'm going to want to throw myself into a volcano. I like Peace Dollars, but I like Reichskreditkassens more. My approach right now is to look at raw ones when we're out coin shopping and if one catches my eye, it's one I don't have and it's a good price, I'll pick it up. I don't really care if they're circulated or uncirculated-I'm very European in my collecting style there. Eventually, if I get more serious about the project, I'll grade them. Especially if NGC offers the black retro holders for them again at some point. I don't know if I'm going to do a date set or the full set. As for your own silver dollar pursuit, I'd go Peace all the way. But I'm bad judge there as I pretty much loathe the Morgan Dollar

 

As for the SMS coins, well, they do seem like an interesting area. It's not one I really ever got into myself but I have had some good flips with cameo pieces. That's pretty much all I do with those, buy and resell ( as is the case with myself and the vast majority of US coins), but they could make an interesting specialty. However, I think the prices on the top end pieces there are absolutely ridiculous right now due to modern US Registry mania. They're scarce, but not as scarce as current prices would indicate in my opinion. But if you find them at a decent price and you like them, by all means pick them up. The most important thing is enjoying our coins!! You brought up some great points about the loss of interest in the US during the end of the silver era, and I agree completely! Loss of silver and bland designs that were already decades old aside from the Kennedy half.......I'm certain it played a role!! My maternal grandfather was a coin collector when he was a young lad in Germany and he had a wonderful collection of German, Polish and Dutch coins. But when he and my grandmother came to America in 1948, he stopped. There were many reasons for this (like my mom coming along in 1950, with further children coming in 1952 and 1955) but one I know for sure is that he, like myself, found the US profile coins like the Franklin Half and Washington Quarter very ugly and not worth collecting. He had a couple of Peace Dollars from his birth year of 1923, but those were the only US coins that he had. And it looks like I'm carrying on in the fine tradition!!

 

Until next time

Take Care

~Tom

 

 

[Mohawk]

hey again world colonial,

more good points. I, like you, suspect that it was the ugliness of the designs that caused the decline in collecting US coins rather than the metal change. An ugly coin is an ugly coin, whether it is gold, silver, copper or zinc. I think the quality of the base metal replacements played more of a role in other places, but I could be totally wrong on that. Many of the countries I collect from no longer exist ( the Ottoman Empire, Weimar Germany and the Third Reich) and they went into the history books long before the death of circulating silver. And many of the countries that did transition in the 1960's, I'm not currently pursuing any sets from, so I'll be the first to admit my thoughts on this may not be the best.

 

I also agree with your thoughts on the conditional rarity issue, especially as it pertains to US collecting. I think that the collecting by the numbers is definitely an American approach, and mostly with collecting US coins. I think that most of us here on the World side of things agree that there are very few US coins that are actually rare and those that are have a bad case of total price insanity right now. Will it be that way forever? With something like the 1913 Liberty Nickel, probably. But for others, like the later dated double eagles? Who knows? Maybe. But I'm not so sure. They'll always be expensive, for sure. But in the six and seven figures? I have my doubts. But for now, they are in the stratosphere. I was talking to Joe about modern US Registry price insanity, but I could apply that to most US coins right now. I think that many collectors on that side of things realize, on some level, that most of the coins they're putting their money into are not truly rare. So they seek out "rare" numbers. The climb some US coins exhibit between XF and the various MS numbers is absolutely ridiculous. I mean, $18,000 for an MS 65 1925-S Peace Dollar?! Is it really worth that when a nice XF-AU could be had for $45? I'd say absolutely not. But then there are these funny little things called Registry Points.

 

First off, I want to be clear that I'm not knocking the Registry. I love it. It gives me a fun place to share my coins with other collectors in a safe and anonymous forum. It provides this great forum, which is a fun and educational place to network with collectors around the country and world. But my reasons for participating are what I listed: sharing and networking, learning and teaching. I don't get into the point insanity, and my sets show that. I have a mix of grades, from XF to MS 67, I even have detail graded coins, but I like how they look. I'm not seeking to upgrade these at all. I selected them and stand by them, and if someone comes along and has an example that scores more Registry Points, good for them. Most of my coins are actually purchased raw and I grade them myself for the purposes of having guaranteed authenticity, protection and so I can share them on here with the community. Mostly, I just seek out pretty and character when selecting coins, and what ever number it gets or doesn't get, no big deal. But there are others, particularly on the US side, that are fiercely competitive and are constantly seeking points and upgrades with their coins. And these are the people pushing US coins into absolute insanity in regards to pricing. The US Modern segment is the craziest in my opinion. I remember reading a post that a US modern collector wrote stating a value of over $2400 for a 1986-S Jefferson Nickel in PF 70 Ultra Cameo!! I was shocked!! I'm sorry, but that is just insane and completely ridiculous. But I'll bet it scores a whole pile of those Registry points. I cannot imagine a world where that pricing for that coin would be anywhere close to accurate. I think that many of these collectors don't really ask themselves this question: What IS a Registry Point? When you think about it, the answer is this: It's really nothing. It's a point on a computer evaluating your coin in its constructed set. It's a way of competing with others. But it's NOT REAL!!! If every computer in the world up and died tomorrow, one would not have a pile of Registry Points in their collections. The coins would be there, of course, but the points would be gone because they are not real. While the Registries have been wonderful in providing us a great place to organize and share our coins with one another and to keep a nice inventory of our collections, they've also spurred on a wave of insanity where someone would spend $19,000 on a 1999 American Silver Eagle in MS 70 because they need it to score their points and match the rest of the numbers in their Registry Set. Like many things, they've been a double-edged sword. I think that many of these highly competitive Registry people are going to be very sorry and take a big hit financially once the present insanity goes away, and it will. Things like this burn themselves out. However, those of us who collect to collect, and participate in the Registry sanely will likely be ok, on the World side of things anyway........I still think almost all US coins are poised for some big corrections in price in coming years. But I'm certain it will be those paying insane prices for Registry coins that will be hurt the worst, particularly those on the US Modern side of the house. That market will likely be the site of the most devastation once things start evening out as coins that are essentially worthless, like the aforementioned 1986-S Nickel, are fetching absolutely ridiculous prices in 70 grades due to Registry activity in that area of the hobby.

 

Well, that's all I've got for the moment.

Until Next Time. Best Regards

~Tom

 

 

[Mohawk]

Hello again Joe and All,

I've been looking over my posts on here and chatting with the girlfriend and I've realized that I've been pretty doom and gloom about the future of many US coins in the long run. While I stand by that wholeheartedly, I'm usually a fundamentally cheerful guy. I believe that earlier in this thread I used the Cretaceous-Tertiary Extinction Event as a metaphor for what I feel is going to happen. In the vein of being the cheerful guy that I like to think I am, I'd like to share my thoughts on some US coins which I think will survive the events of the coming decades in my forecast, just as many animals and plants made it through the K-T Event, including some dinosaurs in the form of the birds we all see everyday. So here goes:

 

1. Old US Copper ( half cents and large cents ), classic commems and Peace Dollars-It may seem weird to group these three together, but I did it because they all have one thing in common that most US coins lack: International appeal and collectors in other countries. They also appeal to younger American collectors in ways that many other US coins don't. These are all beautiful coins with things to connect to international collectors. Old copper coins from all over the world are a popular pursuit for large numbers of collectors everywhere, and a large cent or half cent fits nicely with old British Pennies, Kruezers from the German States and Ottoman Copper 20 and 40 Paras. Peace Dollars have a very international image and feel to them and they have a World War I connection. While World War I is largely overshadowed by World War II in America, World War I is a huge part of the history and national consciousness of many other nations, and this helps the Peace Dollar immensely. I'm not exactly sure of the reasoning for the popularity of the classic commemoratives overseas, but popular they are! And I have no reason to think that this popularity will not continue.

 

2. Liberty Nickels and Indian Cents-These are certainly due for some price corrections but they are easily the most attractive American coins of their era. In the few instances that I've seen younger numismatists getting into US Coins of the 19th Century, it's almost always one of these two series. They'll correct pricewise, and then they'll level out and be pretty much fine.

 

And finally Number 3, which is conditional: Lincoln Cents. As long as they keep minting cents and circulating them, the Lincoln Cent will remain a starting point for many collectors and this fact will keep them popular. However, I think if they ever decide to finally pull the plug on the cent, this series will die off in a big way. Almost the entire price structure on this series is demand based as none of the coins are rare but the demand is intense and insane due to this being THE series thousands of people start out of circulation. Take that away and Lincolns will crumble.

 

And for the sake of a laugh, I'll add Barber Coinage to this list as an unofficial Number 4 for the sheer fact that I've never been able to predict what these utilitarian relics of the 19th Century will do. Their current popularity makes little sense to me, and since it does and I think that they'll be hurt in the decline I predict, they'll probably emerge from the wreckage as the most popular US coins among my generation of numismatists and younger just to flip me off

 

Anyhow, it's bedtime so goodnight all!!

~Tom

 

 

 

 

[joes2001]

I think another undervalued area of world coins is mexican coinage. Particularly the 20th century stuff, even some of the modern coins. For example, the 82 or 83 proof coins of the lower denominations, and the 95 (or 93) proof coins are hard to find and have mintages around 1k or under i think. I love Mexican silver coins, especially the large ones. The country has been mining silver for centuries so their large silver coins are fitting. Even their bimetalic coins in the past few decades are quite pretty looking and have silver varieties. I also think their silver Libertad series are perhaps undervalued, considering their low mintages (in comparison to Silver American Eagles) and beauty. However, it's hard to get a good price on some of those coins, especially the proofs, at least on ebay.

 

Tom, I think your collecting strategy is good. Peace dollars are definitely a nice addition to your collection, and it seems like a good idea to take it slow and not throw a bunch of money into higher grades all the sudden. As far as I know, the key dates are not too expensive, even in low mint grades. I have a question for you, and anyone else that cares to respond. Where do you buy most of your coins? Furthermore, what online sites do you prefer? I buy a lot on ebay, mostly because i'm used to it and sell occasionally on there. I've looked at Heritage auctions once or twice but got a little confused about what and wasn't for sale. Sometimes I haven't been able to find a certain coin on ebay and have wondered if the site is losing coin dealers overtime. Thanks

[joes2001]

Tom,

Very good read. I agree with just about everything you mentioned. Sometimes I move a little away form US coins but I'm always reeled back in. Everytime I'm hunting for deals at the antique and flea markets around here, I find something to remind me of the joy these coins can bring. Even though there's a lot of insanity as far as prices go for some US coins, the high demand (relative to other countries) for US coins makes hunting for them and attending shows exciting.

 

I forgot about the Peace dollar being tied to WW1. You're right that it has international appeal, but I've never thought about that. I found it more thought provoking when you mentioned the classic commems have international collectors. I would never guess that to be the case. As far as the Lincoln cents, you're probably right that interest would wane if they were finally removed from circulation. Perhaps budding collectors would then move on to collecting nickels, or just continue with the statehood and national park quarters as they do in large numbers now. I want to throw out the idea that maybe the popularity of Lincoln cents might increase if they were removed from circulation. The might then be viewed as the decades pass as some kind of relic of the past, a common nuisance (at least in my view) jingling in your pocket or collecting dirt in the parking lot. I don't know though for sure.

 

I really enjoy Barber coinage! I have a nice Barber half dollar in the middle grades. Scarcity really kicks in with this denomination as you move into the higher grades. It turns out 50 cents was a lot back then, and maybe the design didn't encourage people to collect them. There's nothing like seeing a mint state Barber coin, in any denomination. They're quite in demand, at least as far as the prices for them suggest. Well, i'm off to bed soon, nice chatting with you!

[cladking]

 

My comments were not clear. I am not talking about interest in clad but in collecting generally. If the number of collectors decreased as I understand and it was substantial, I believe that the price increases also had a lot to do with it.

 

Everything isn't about clad, everything is about coins.

 

The same thing happened all over the world when coins were debased; people quit saving them. There's little doubt this hurt the coin markets all over the world at the same time but this is hard to see because coin markets in most countries are small.

 

It wasn't hard to see when it came to America because the entire coin market simply plummeted. Yes, it was primarily "modern coins" (modern had a different definition then since the market was 1950 to 1965 coins) that took the brunt of the price collapses but nothing fared well. All these new young collectors didn't leave the market and a few drifted into collecting older coins. These prices regained their losses and even resumed their increases before too long. But (and this is the point you're missing) there were no new collectors on an absolute basis. More people drifted back into collecting old coins and their prices rose but the total number of collectors simply began to decrease and mainrtained this decrease untill 1999 and the states coins. Now there is so much hatred not only of the moderns that killed the market (1950 to 1964 coins) that it has spilled over into the debased junk moderns (clad). Old timers belittle the states collectors and their collections because it is debased junk and associated with the collapse of the coin market. We scare away the next generation of collectors because we were once burned and everyone knows base metal isn't worth collecting.

 

It is exactly this "knowledge" that base metal (and clad) isn't worth collecting that has created a world where most of the coins minted in the last half century are very hard to find in pristine condition. It was the "knowledge" that the coins are junk that kept us from complaining as the mint cranked out millions upon endless millions of poorly made and unattractive junk. People hardly even looked at the coins. Now everything is different. There are a very few collectors who don't care that the coins were junk and base metal. There are very few collectors but they are running up against virtually no supply.

 

Its what I think also happened in the last decade with South African coins. The price increases I am describing are also a fact though I cannot prove it had the impact I claim. What I am telling you is that if these price increases had not been so great, that I believe fewer or far fewer collectors would have stopped collecting, regardless of whether clad was in circulation or not.

 

I believe the majority of every coin collector got their start by collecting coins in circulation. For decades even the ANA wrote in their literature that there was nothing in circulation to collect. Thisa was "known" widely and people were steered away from circulating coins. Many responded by not collecting at all. And this same effect occurs when people slam states collectors. Rather than being encouraged they are told the coins are just common junk and if any have high prices it's because there are greater fools out there.

 

What you are describing would have impacted primarily those who collected out of pocket change. It would not have made any difference to those who were paying any premiums worth mentioning. The price increases that I recall were on the order of five or even 10 times in less than or within a decade, though I do not know if the "Red Book" values were the same as the actual retail prices.

 

No! Today there are almost two different coin markets but in 1965 there was one coin market and it collapsed when it was announced in September 1964 that dates would be frozen and base metal introduced. This was a staged collapse that progressed with each new edict from Philadelphia or Congress. But the collapse was complete even before the first clads began appearing in November, 1965.

[cladking]

I strongly disagree. There are numerous US coins that can be had for a song and they aren't all moderns. Indeed, they aren't even necessarily "coins" per se. The fact is that outside of 15 or 20 popular US series most coins simply go wanting. This isn't to say that popular series are overpriced merely that they have very high prices relative to bargains in other US and world coins.

 

Most collectors just don't notice opportunities to collect scarce and rare US coins even when it bites them on the nose. For instance, many individual states issued their own currency for the purpose of paying sales tax. These "coins" were being used as money so the federal government shut them down. Today almost all of these are "common" but they are common only because there is no demand. Some of these are very difficult to locate in uncirculated condition and incredibly most are rare to non-existent in Gem. It would hardly be surprising to pick up a significant scarcity, possibly even in Gem, for less than a dollar, or even less than a dime.

 

The fact is there is a beaten path and this path is far far narrower than the known world. People should collect what they like but to dismiss all US numismatics because an '84-S Morgan dollar will cost you a few grand in only XF is very short sighted. Perhaps with the great wealth and demand in the US this coin is really worth this much and the price of this coin has no bearing on the value of a scarce three cent nickel or a rare modern which can be had cheaply.

 

Are you actually trying to tell me that the US material you are describing is viewed as equivalent to many of the world coins such as those I collect or others like them from a numismatic standpoint? I am not even talking about the Bolivia decimal series (which I still think is better than what you are describing) but the pillars, Spanish and Mexican coins I buy. Because if you are, I don't think hardly anyone is going to agree with that, whether they favor the same coins I do or not. You weren't that specific but almost no one really wants much of the material you seem to be describing.

 

In prior posts, I have compared the pillar minors as being comparable to early US federal coinage of the same size. So for example, my 1755 Peru NGC MS-65 1/2 real, its basically no lower on the numismatic scale than a flowing hair or drapped bust half dime in comparable quality. Its probably actually much scarcer than most of them certainly as a date (I believe all except the 1802) and maybe even as a type coin. This denomination or mint is not widely collected, but that is at least partly due to the difficulty in finding them at all because it isn't an obscure design or series,

 

No, what I was describing in my prior post was something that any relatively large number of collectors from either the US or elsewhere are actually going to want, not the obscure material you seem to be referencing. And by this standard, there is no doubt that what I am describing is factually correct. With higher priced coins, the discrepancy is even greater. A world coin buyer can buy numismatic equivalents to some seven figure US coins for possibly as little as $25,000 (or even less) given that there are so many US coins in this price range today.

 

With the US Mint issues such as the or 3CN, I don't dislike these coins but even these are not particularly cheap given their scarcity except by US standards and then only in circulated or lower MS grades. And despite their relatively low values by US standards, there are still many world coins that are better or much better to any impartial observer that can be bought for the same or less.

 

The same applies to the US modern rarities you have described in the past. These are all either "conditional" rarities, errors or die varieties. Either few or none outside of modern specialists like you are going to see these coins as equivalent to the world coins I am describing either.

 

What I'm trying to tell you is that everything is perspective. There is no independent reality that says an 8 pillar is better to collect than mardi gras doubloon or matchbooks. We each have a perspective that is largely shared but this perspective always changes over time. I would far rather buy a rare and Gem tax token for 25c than a rare and Gem morgan dollar for half a million. This is independent of market value. The fact is that the tax token can be rarer and equally satisfying to own. The fact that it is seen as junk and not even a real "coin" by most collectors just adds to its allure. The fact that not one coin collector in ten thousands will even know it's rare is a plus. The fact that it can be had cheaply makes collections highly affordable. I know that even the tiniest change in collectors' perspectives can have a tremendous impact on the price of the tax "token". But the reason I seek such items isn't for profit but the satisfaction of owning rare and desirable items that are a part of American history.

 

Someday this era of American history will be studied and judged and it will not only be judged more favorably but it will be remembered more favorably if the surviving coins are Gems instead of the junk that was cranked out. History is largely smoke and mirrors and my Gem clads will provide the mirrors.

[cladking]

Yeah, I'm curious as to what mordern US coins are rare. The only kind I can think of are condition rarities, or maybe gold commems.

 

This isn't an appropriate thread for this. Suffice to say that the price guides for US moderns aren't too much better than Krause' price guides for world coins.

 

Most valuable modern US are special issues, mistakes, and high grades.

[cladking]

Likew you I love silver but see nickel as an ideal coinage medium. I especially like pure nickel but the alloys are also appealing. If a country must have tiny denominations then aluminum is OK but these should be avoided.

 

I hated clad more than anyone in 1965. I hated the new coins even more than the clad itself. In half a century things change and all the reasons to hate clad felkl by the wayside.

 

 

I'd also like to pose the question as to which modern US coins are rare as well.

 

 

 

Just a few examples since this came up again;

 

There is a unique 1964 clad quarter.

There are two known 1975 PR dimes without a mintmark.

There are ~10,000 1982 dimes released to circulation without mint marks.

There are no 1969 quarters above MS-67 and true Gems are rare.

Only about 80,000 of the huge mintage of 1982-P quarters survive in Unc.

 

There are countless other examples of unique, rare, and scarce US moderns.

 

This is the result of the US mint making coins for half a century without people paying attention.

[cladking]

The primary reason I do not believe this type of collecting is popular at all outside the US is because the coins are so much cheaper and scarcer. Finding many of these coins is hard enough without creating artificial definitions of scarcity as is done here in the US. And since many more coins are available to many more collectors, specialization isn't necessary from a financial aspect either. Its the affordability issue with US coins that I believe increases the appeal of this type of collecting and the fact that it has developed far more extensively since the TPG era seems to support it.

 

I'm not even going to try to respond to the whole post since it's the same thing I've respoded to for a decade on the net.

 

"This type of collecting" as you call it isn't popular in the US either. One of about a dozen known 1972-D type b reverse quarters sold for $50 recently. Can you imagine if this were a rare morgan or bust dollar!

 

Modern collecting is even less common in the US than it is in Russia or India. This is why their moderns are exploding in price and ours aren't. This is the point!

 

There are modern US collectors but few are collecting the older circulating moderns like they are in other countries. This is where Krause has dropped the ball in pricing.

[cladking]

 

Otherwise, I don't believe the metal content really has that much to do with it. Collectors apparently didn't like the designs then as much as the immediately preceding "classic" designs and they still don't today.

 

Collectors probably set aside around 15,000,000 of each the '63 and the '63-D nickels. These coins were saved in such vast quantities they can still be found in Unc today in circulation! Similar numbers of '64 coinage was saved.

 

Even though the nickel didn't change at all in design or composition very few 1965 nickels were saved.

 

If this effect was felt in a coin that didn't change and there was good reason to set aside the '65 since the mintage plummeted then you can only imagine the effect on the number of quarters saved! Quarter mintages soared and the were debased junk and most were very poorly made. I have not seen one single original roll of 1969 quarters since 1969. I've been out looking for them and never found an actual original roll.

 

 

[Mohawk]

Hey there Joe,

I'm glad you enjoyed the posting.....I enjoyed writing it!! As I stated I'm very much a cheerful guy, and even though I do believe that the US coin market is in for a tougher future, it was certainly enjoyable to discuss some US coins that are doing just fine, and that I honestly feel will continue to do so. While I'm not much of a US collector, as you all well know, it makes me a little sad to think about any coins being abandoned and forgotten. It's like abandoning pieces of history. It also makes me sad that much of the problems in the future of the US market are coming from collectors themselves. The very people who are supposed to love and care for the coins are doing a lot to hurt their future with upcoming generations of collectors with their habits and attitudes at the present time. Though what makes me the saddest is thinking of younger collectors getting hurt and turning away from the hobby by those participating in it currently.

 

I really think you're onto something with Mexican coins. There is a lot of potential in that market. One thing that's been tough for me is finding what I'd consider to be "good" moderns. By that, I mean ones that combine beauty, scarcity and potential demand. Mexican Libertads certainly fit that bill nicely!! I think I mentioned before that I have an almost complete set of the silver ones, and I plan to finish it one day once my German and Turkish pursuits are more mature. Also, and this is an odd thought for me, I feel that the gold Libertads also make good collectibles. They're about the only modern gold pieces that I feel that this is true of. The Mexican Mint is really quite good at putting out a beautiful, quality product while keeping the mintages low. This, in my mind, ensures their future as numismatic items. I think that when the day comes that Silver and Gold Eagles are just so many lumps of bullion, Libertads will still be doing well and those who invested in them will be very happy. Classic Mexican coins are also wonderful. They feature some great designs, and they're priced quite nicely right now in most instances. I think there's potential for great growth for Mexican coins as more Mexicans and Mexican-Americans begin coin collecting. And I know from experience that many younger American collectors also find the Mexican designs very appealing. At the coin shop that my girlfriend and I frequent ( the one where the World part tends to be hopping with many young folks and the US part looks like a rest home aside from my girlfriend ) I see many of the collectors in the 20-30 age group buying Mexican coins. The Libertads and the Caballito Pesos of 1910-1914 seem to be the most popular, but other series are starting to be enjoyed as well. All good signs.

 

As for where I buy coins, I use many venues. As I said before, there's a great coin shop about a half hour away from my house. They have amazing selections of both world and US coins, but as I mentioned there's a huge age divide in the clientele in the two halves of the shop. I've also bought on Ebay, and I've had good luck with it for the most part. Just make sure that there are good photos, good feedback and a return policy. Also, I'd avoid sellers in certain countries on Ebay simply because shipping problems are frequently encountered. Those nations are Italy, Greece, Russia and Israel. I've had good luck with sellers in the US, Canada, Germany, Turkey, The Netherlands, the UK, Chile and Japan. I've only ever had one package lost from any of those countries. It was coming from Germany, but the seller was very nice and issued me a full refund after a postal investigation on the German end to discern what happened to the package and the coin. Another venue I use are the many fine dealers online. New World Stamp and Coin is a great online dealer for both US and World coins. DNE Coins is another good online World coin dealer. Don Bailey Numismatics is excellent for Mexican coins. Those are all venues that I have used in building my collection, and I've been very pleased with the results in all cases.

 

In this last response, I've noticed something in you Joe. Like my girlfriend, you still have a huge love for many US Coins. You're definitely more into them than I ever was, just as she is. I'd like to say that it'd be a shame for you to give up on them entirely. Though I think that market is highly inflated and due for some corrections in coming years, the most important thing is to collect what you love, to collect those coins that speak to your heart, no matter what anyone else says be that person a well-meaning fellow collector giving predictions based on his honest experiences in an open discussion or a nasty old curmudgeon who feels that he has to put your collection down for some reason. The LAST thing I'd ever want to do is steer anyone from truly following their heart. I know that I've caught flak for my Third Reich coins, but do I love them? Yes. So I collect them and enjoy them. And I share them with fellow collectors who I think would enjoy them and who I feel I can talk to in a spirit of friendship, respect and love for this great hobby regardless of our exact pursuits within it. So I think you should keep going with US and World because you clearly still love and enjoy both. As I said before, my take on it is if the money comes, it comes and that's a nice bonus. But if it doesn't and you collect coins you love, you still have a collection of coins that puts a smile on your face every time you look at it and that's the best measure of success in numismatics or any hobby. Chase your loves, Joe, as best you can regardless of prices to the best of your ability. I often have to save for months to buy a new Reichskreditkassen, but it's so worth it once I get there and hold that little coin in my hand. It's better to save more and buy less, but when you do buy, buy something you love!!

 

In closing, I look greatly forward to our continued chatting about our numismatic pursuits, both US and non-US. That line is one I'm used to walking with my girlfriend, and I greatly enjoy it! And I'll enjoy it with you too!!

 

Well, until next time

Best

~Tom