What do you think of KP's World catalogues??

[World Colonial]

 

Its fine that you like to do this but 99%+ of collectors are not interested just like they are not interested in the series I collect.

 

I believe you are mistaken and that you are mistaken BECAUSE you see this from a perspective of a classic coin collector. The average Barber dime came off the dies as a pretty nice coin. The average ZAR 1894 shilling was a great coin before it got into circulation. Sure, there was a wide spread in quality but there's no special need to care about quality when almost all are nice. This is true for some moderns too. The typical 1974 Swiss Franc is a very attractive coin in Unc. They won't all have crisp strikes like most silver coins but some will and most are well struck and lightly marked. The problem isn't finding a nice one; the problem is finding one.

 

This doesn't apply to something like a 1969 US quarter. The typical coin came off the dies and was poorly struck by worn dies. They had a couple different types of surface problems (mostly retained planchet marking) and now many are tarnished. The typical coin not only has one of these problems but will be marked up and have a few of these problems. It's a case where almost all examples are simply unattractive. This isn't something unique only to US 1969 25c pieces as other issues havew been poorly made, but the difference is this is one of very few coins like this with potentially substantial demand.

 

I'm hardly suggesting that every clad quarter collector will want a Gem. I'm merely saying that this coin is tough in attractive condition and the only reason that nice attractive XF examples of this coin don't sell for a lot of money is that there isn't any demand. We're not talking about a full head on a 1930 quarter but rather just a nice attractive example rather than one that looks like it was beaten with a stick. All collectors have some minimum quality they expect. With moderns that minimum quality sometimes must be under MS-60 if you have to compete with other collectors.

 

My reply doesn't have anything to do with my views as a classic collector. It has everything to do with the fact that most collectors are not interested in these coins at all. I agree with you that those who want these coins will want them in a "better" grade and probably one above MS-60. I DISAGREE that anywhere near the number you have implied are going to pay ANYWHERE NEAR the premiums you have repeatedly claimed or at least implied they will.

[World Colonial]

But if the price of most moderns explodes through the roof most people won't even notice because they think it's all modern junk that is common and bought by greater fools seeking ever higher grades or rare varieties.

 

Moderns have almost no demand and no matter how you say it this isn't natural. People stood in lines to get pennies in 1909 and saved tens of millions of bicentennial quarters but just don't care about the 1969. I'm still betting that most modern rarities will be appreciated eventually because everthing tends to regress toward the norm just as pendulums return to center.

 

There you go again with your claim about what is "natural" in collecting. You have repeatedly made this claim in this thread and it is one that neither you nor anyone else can demonstrate, much less prove. There is no "equilibrium" in coin collecting and the idea that there is one is fiction because this is not physics.

 

It also depends upon what "rarities" you have in mind. I have already let you know that for "conditional" rarities, I will concede this point because no one including me can account for the fickle preferences of the minimal number of buyers which determine these prices.

 

If you are talking about the "undergrade" coins or others like them, I believe that the demand is going to be less or much less than you believe and that the supply is going to be greater than you have either claimed or implied. The demand because - as in this post - you badly overestimate the appeal of these coins at higher or much higher prices to both existing collectors and especially non-collectors. The supply, you can refer to my prior post where I tried to explain how statistical methods might be applied to that 1983-P PCGS MS-66 quarter and circulating moderns generally.

 

That anecdotal example you gave about the 1909-S VDB cent, that sounds like a mania to me. But in any event, neither it nor the 1976 quarter require that people have any interest in the other coins you like, whether in any absolute sense or proportionately. One has nothing to do with the other. People have free will and can collect those two but not the others.

[World Colonial]

 

in any event, as have already told you multiple times, in South Africa and most other countries, there isn't enough to buy with more than a trivial amount of money wihtout pricing out most buyers. There is no evidence that they are going to buy the "leftovers" (both classics and moderns) because they find collecting so compelling.

 

If they don't buy coins or acquire them by some means then they aren't coin collectors by definition.

 

I've always wanted to collect bust half dollars but they were too expensive for me in 1957 and they are too expensive now. I still consider myself a coin collect; just not bust halfs.

 

Exactly my point which is why the prices of world classics such as in South Africa, in Mexico and practically everywhere else will not resemble either the price struture or price levels in the US. This is why I believe the number of future collectors are not going to be even proportionately as many as in the US, contrary to what many other long time collectors believe.

 

In some instances today and in the future, there are and more will become "trophy" coins but when a country like Mexico or South Africa has a disproportionate number or percentage of coins that are unusually scarce or not available in the quality that most buyers want, all of these coins aren't likely to be a "trophy" coin. I am not aware of any country today where this is true.

 

The difference between you and most collectors is that you are willing to collect coins that most others do not want. You find circulating moderns and especially those from the US compelling and apparently because you do, you think others should also. Most others, they are not going to collect at all if they can disproportionately only afford coins like that.

 

I can collect what I like while still acknowledging that even though the coins I collect are disproportionately much better to most collectors than any circulating modern, that others do not want them. I know they do not. Of all the contributors on this forum since I started posting, you seem to be the one who cannot accept that others do not and will not see the merits of the coins you like as you do. For someone who stated in one of these last posts that you are a student of human nature, you do not seem to know much about it when it comes to how people view coins or moderns. Because in the reality that I see, people do not share your viewpoint except in isolation.

[joes2001]

I think the Rhodesian coin is interesting, the one you guys are mentioning. I think the fact that a lot of world coin collectors go for low mintages may help its price increase over time. I also think that maybe it is so rare, and other modern coins known for being absent in the market, because most world collectors just pass it by when they go through bags of coins. I would never think twice about it (but i will now ). Another thing, I was wondering what you two define as modern? When i hear "modern," i either think of a) coins that were made with some type of machine, like screw presses, etc. So that would be around the 15 or 1600s i think. Or i think of b) clad coinage, with most countries taking out silver like the US in the 60s. I think in the context of this forum, you are talking mainly about coins that fit description b.

[JKK]

Just dropping some kudos for one of the most spirited, intelligent, sane, civil, edifying debates I've ever seen on this board. Deserves some form of memorialization when it reaches its endpoint.

[CyberspaceVoid]

Here, here!

 

I agree with JKK .... it has been interesting to follow.

[joes2001]

Ya i agree. I didn't think my topic would generate all these posts, but it did somehow. It kind of sidebared into a nice discussion

[World Colonial]

I think the Rhodesian coin is interesting, the one you guys are mentioning. I think the fact that a lot of world coin collectors go for low mintages may help its price increase over time. I also think that maybe it is so rare, and other modern coins known for being absent in the market, because most world collectors just pass it by when they go through bags of coins. I would never think twice about it (but i will now ). Another thing, I was wondering what you two define as modern? When i hear "modern," i either think of a) coins that were made with some type of machine, like screw presses, etc. So that would be around the 15 or 1600s i think. Or i think of b) clad coinage, with most countries taking out silver like the US in the 60s. I think in the context of this forum, you are talking mainly about coins that fit description b.

 

I do not know what the mintage of the 1977 Rhodesia half cent is because I do not have my Krause book with me. However, I do not believe it is representative of world moderns at all, even those that are scarce or rare. I used it as an example because it is one which is confirmed to be rare and one which has a respectably strong price.

 

To go back to the question you originally asked at the beginning, the only or at least primary reason this coin is "worth" this price ($1500 in UNC) is because Krause says so. But like many including myself said at the beginning, there is either limited or even no evidence that the catalog prices reflect real sales to real collectors. They just estimate or "make them up". On the BidorBuy (South Africa eBay) forum, I have said the same thing MANY TIMES about the Hern handbook which prices ZAR, Union, and RSA. In that instance, the prices are blatantly and absurdly wrong and anyone can verify it for themselves in real time.

 

My opinion is that the ONLY reason that Krause, Hern or any other catalog is "correct" is because dealers are able to price and sell (mostly) low value coins at its list prices and buyers pay it. And in some instances, collectors will use the catalog (such as with the Heritage 1977 Rhodesia 1/2 cent NGC AU-55) because they have nothing else to use.

 

But what you need to keep in mind is that illiquid coins like this do not have a fixed value. Prices can and do fluctuate wildly from one sale to the next, as in the example I gave in a prior thread of the 1931 Union PR-65 shilling which sold for almost $9000 on BoB and then one month later a PR-66 sold at DNW for $2300. I have the sneaking suspicion that the PR-65 buyer wasn't very happy about the "value" received in their purchase.

 

Many times, buyers and sellers are also operating "in the dark". Or perhaps, there is one buyer at the "real" price and none other. This is apparently what happened with this 1977 Rhodesia half cent because as I mentioned earlier, a MUCH BETTER specimen went unsold less than a year after Heritage sold theirs. I do not know if there was a reserve but the opening bid was quite a bit below the Krause price.

 

On your second question, I think of US moderns as coins without the current designs. Greg Reynolds (aka, Analyst on the PCGS forum) wrote an article in Coin Week supporting that the dividing line was 1933 or some year near it. If you ask world coin collectors, they will probably use the year 1500 as you stated. But to US collectors, I believe the one cladking uses is the "correct" one.

[World Colonial]

I think the Rhodesian coin is interesting, the one you guys are mentioning. I think the fact that a lot of world coin collectors go for low mintages may help its price increase over time. I also think that maybe it is so rare, and other modern coins known for being absent in the market, because most world collectors just pass it by when they go through bags of coins. I would never think twice about it (but i will now ).

 

Here is something you might want to consider for any rare moderns (or other coins) that do not seem to be available.

 

We know that Krause pricing is inaccurate. What reason is there to believe that the mintage records are always accurate or for that matter, that Krause does not list coins that should not be in there at all? How do we actually know that these coins exist now or for that matter, ever existed at all?

 

US Mint records include 12,000 1895 business strike Morgan dollars. None have ever been identified. In a recent thread, I believe RWB confirmed that the coins were actually struck but that they were presumably melted later. In this instance, the mintage is accurate but it is irrelevant because the coins apparently do not exist and there is no reason for anyone to believe that they do.

 

Both Krause and the South African coin guides (Hern, Randcoin and Kaplan) record business strikes for the 1933, 1934 and 1936 farthings. 1933 and 1934 are only known as proofs. I do not believe these coins were ever struck. The 1936, NGC lists three (same as the mintage) in the census but I believe many collectors are dubious that they are actually business strikes. If necessary, I can explain it.

 

There are also coins in the Bolivia Republic decimal series whose existence I question. Krause lists 1882, 1887 and 1889 50c and an 1887 Boliviano. Except for the 1882 50c, all are listed as “rare” or with a “dash”. I know that this does not mean the coins cannot exist but I have never been able to find any information anywhere. The 1893 Boliviano (also very rare), one finally appeared in a recent Sincona auction (previously UBS Numismatics) and I was also able to find information through an internet search. Krause lists it with a value of $2500 in XF. It would not surprise me if one or more of these other coins do not and never did exist.

 

The point I am trying to make is that out of the 50,000+ (?) world moderns included in Krause, there is bound to be some margin of error. (The errors work both ways as many here know of coins not listed.) This is an entirely logical conclusion given that we know the accuracy of the pricing is effectively zero. The mintage records could be wrong or maybe Krause made an error a long time ago that remains uncorrected in subsequent editions. The most likely source of the error would be inccurate source documents.

 

If this is correct as I believe it to be, then this means that some number and possibly a high proportion of the rare moderns that cannot be found should actually be ignored.

[genbirch]

This thread was extremely thought provocative. Clad king vs. World Colonial - two polar opposite super-enthusiasts conviction, knowledge and time enough to volley longer than Wimbledon. I really appreciate the idea that guys like you are stewards of our the materials which make-up our 'hobby'.

I consumed this over half a dozen sittings - Joesabet, your thread sure got some legs!

 

You guys put a lot of mental energy into this. My only criticism is that you were both 'lite on the data'. I would love to see BOTH of these hypotheses written up with ample data support points. There are a heck of a lot of data available and, based on the random anecdotal sampling that my current perspective is made up of, you both have defensible claims.

 

Thanks!

[cladking]

World Colonial is certainly right about one thing; just because a modern coin is scarce or rare will not assure it is valuable in the future just as many old scarce and rare coins are not valuable now.

 

I do believe that the world will continue to get ever smaller and many distinctions between places and countries will fade. People will be more mobile and have more money going forward. The internet and new means of communication will bring the knowledge and desire for coins to people at the speed of light. Social media of various types will make it possible to obtain almost any coin. New technology will lift billions out of poverty and give them a taste of money and leisure.

 

With each new generation the lack of silver in coinage will come to be seen as natural.

 

I believe the future of all coin collecting is bright for at least the next half century as those who have used coins come to desire to collect them. After that it's very difficult to predict and will depend on events which have yet to happen.

 

You guys put a lot of mental energy into this. My only criticism is that you were both 'lite on the data'. I would love to see BOTH of these hypotheses written up with ample data support points. There are a heck of a lot of data available and, based on the random anecdotal sampling that my current perspective is made up of, you both have defensible claims.

 

Generally it's just not the data that are in dispute. We both have the same data and are interpreting it very differently. I used to have this same argument back in the '70's but in those days there were no valuable moderns so my only support was that I "knew" they were rare. Now there are thousands of moderns which have exploded in price despite their obviously lower demand highlighting just how rare they really are.

 

But,it will still take demand and time before the true scope of this is really known. Many moderns are excessively common and even huge demand woudn't have much affect on their price and it's entirely possible that some rare issues will never have demand.

[joes2001]

I sometimes wonder whether world coins will increase it popularity in the US. I know that the US has a strong collector base (compared to other countries I think), but I question whether collectors here will take on world coins to a significant degree. Maybe it's cultural. For example, soccer is more an international sport I think, and since it's not American it's not as popular as football. I think world coins are kind of like this. In other words, American collectors are more focused, and most likely will be focused in the future, on their own coinage. Sure, there are some fine world coin dealers and collectors, but it's nowhere near US coin collecting. These are just my thoughts, I'm not sure how accurate they are though.

[Mohawk]

This is an interesting thread. Like many of you on here, I feel that the Krause certainly has its problems. It's a good starting point to learn about world coins, but you often have to be prepared to do your own research for deeper information like current pricing information. Sadly, at present, the Krause is often the only game in town for American collectors of World coins. But it is joesabet's post right above mine that I'd like to respond to the most. I'm a collector in NY State, and in spite of a few holdovers here on the Registry that serve a purpose in my Custom Sets, I do not collect US coins anymore at all. And I have no plans to return to collecting them at anytime in the future. I think that World Coins will increase in popularity in the US, actually from my experience they already are. But you often don't see a lot of it yet as it's younger collectors who are finally getting outside of collecting US coins. Many of these budding collectors don't have the budgets for slabbing and Registry collecting yet so they often fly under the radar unless those of us here meet them in coin shops, coin clubs or ( more rarely) at shows. I used to work in a coin shop and the vast majority of the under 30 crowd that came in were looking exclusively for non-US coins. This is also the case at the coin shop my girlfriend and I now frequent. Of course there are exceptions to this ( my girlfriend is one of them. She's 25 and collects US along with World coins) but generally speaking, this is the pattern, at least where I live and at the numismatic places I frequent. Given the generations that are getting into this area of the hobby ( I'm 33, and I'd say I'm right at the median age of the Finger Lakes Region World Coin community) and my experiences in almost 15 years as a numismatist in some way, World Coins have nowhere to go but up in the American numismatic community.

[joes2001]

Interesting input. I kind of feel the same way as you. Namely, that there seems to be quite a few individuals getting into world coins, especially the younger crowd. I'm 32, well-educated, etc., but I don't have deep pockets for coins. So basically I search out mainly foreign coins. I live in southern California and you'd think that I'd have a lot of competition, but I make a lot of great finds with world coins at Flea/Antique markets. I even find good world coin deals at the occasional show. I sell on ebay sometimes, only to US residents, and it seems very hard to get from buyers close to what world coins are worth. Maybe Krause is way off, but like you said, maybe the catalogue is not current/accurate. The last few times I've been at coin shows I just pass up most of the US coins, unless they're sitting there next to world coins and are a good deal. US coins, when you compare their prices and scarcity to world coins, just don't seem like a good deal. I guess the demand for them explains this disparity.

[Mohawk]

Hello again,

Another great post, and I agree with what you said. I used to dislike the fact that US coins were separated out from those of the entire rest of the world categorically by collectors in this country. But I've seen that this is an accurate reflection of the state of affairs in the numismatic world both in the US and elsewhere. One of the weird things I've noticed about US coins compared to the coins of other lands are that US coins are popular in their homeland, but they really aren't elsewhere. I, at one time, had a rather large collection of US coins. It was weird because I'd collect them because I was interested in events elsewhere when the coin was minted. For example, I had many coins from 1922 because that was the year the last Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, Mehmed VI, was deposed. Weird, huh? I did this mostly because US coins were what I could find information on. Eventually I finally said to heck with it and took the leap into World coins and doing much of my own research, and I've never been a happier collector than I've been since I made that move.

 

 

Anyhow, back to those US coins. Two of my main World pursuits are German and Turkish coins, and I've established relationships with dealers in those two countries in my pursuits. At the beginning, I offered these dealers some of my US coins in trade for stuff I wanted. These were decent grade, certified US key dates and high grade common dates. None of these dealers wanted them because there is very little demand for any US coins in Europe and even certified US keys were very hard sells. I also tried to trade them on Numista, with no luck as well. No one who had things I was interested in wanted any US coins at all. The only trade offers I got were from other collectors in the US who offered me more US stuff for trade! So I sold them to people here in the US and used the cash for what I really wanted. But it's interesting that coins from the UK, France, Germany, China and Mexico are popular all over the world, and US coins aren't. Which is one of the reasons I think World coins are a better move for the future than US coins are.

 

And a few thoughts on the demand factor with US coins. Much of the value on them is definitely present demand as there are very few US coins that are what we World folks would consider to actually be rare. However, as I said before, in my experience much of this demand comes from collectors who are presently over 40 years old. Usually quite a bit over 40 years old, and there are very few younger collectors coming up to take the torch from them in the decades to come. My girlfriend is one of only three serious collectors of US coins under 40 in my area that I know of, and she's a 50/50 split as she does a ton of World collecting as well. She's something of an anomaly, and she knows it. I think that when you and I are the age that many of the serious US collectors are now, the demand for US coins will have declined considerably, and the prices will have dropped accordingly. When I think of how many older collectors of US coins I see and know of at the shops, clubs and shows at present in my area and I think of the fact that there are THREE younger collectors that are poised to be the next generation of US collectors in a region.......well, I'm very glad that I sold off 98% of my US collection now and moved into other things. I think we're in the Cretaceous period for the high prices commanded by US coins and unless the tastes of many collectors our age and younger undergo a radical shift, the Yucatan meteor is coming. Sorry about the small book, but this is a great thread and has been a great place to discuss some thoughts I've had for some time now.

 

In closing, it's too bad you're in California and I'm in New York. You're someone I'd want to invite to a show or club in my area for sure.

~Tom

 

 

 

 

[cladking]

All this anecdotal evidence for younger collectors getting into world coins is quite interesting. It was inevitable because there are so many millions of new young collectors but it usually takes at least a couple decades for individual collectors to branch into world coins. I wasn't expecting much move for a few years yet and here it looks like it's already begun in full swing.

 

The US coin hobby has a serious threat in the next several years because of demographics. It's not just that most are over 40 but most are baby bpoomers who are already beginning to retire. The hobby spent most of the last decade and a half putting off new collectors by belittlling their collections. I don't think that the future must be bleak because of this but it was very short sighted to put up blocks to the new collectors rather than embracing them.

 

I suspect that much of the reason US coins aren't very popular abroad is that historically the US dollar has been strong and US coin prices and demand percieved as very strong. This erosion in the collector base over the years will quite likely catch up with some of the higher flying coins. In twenty years the winners will be the truly rare coins and the some of the others might be significantly lower.

 

One thing for sure is there are going to be a lot of massive price changes in the future and a lot of the large increases will be in world coins as demand shifts to them and new domestic demand for many countries emerges. The future for all coins should be fairly rosy for at least half a century. Many are obviously very much underpriced compared to other collectibles. It's really hard to even imagine a world where a coin like a blazing Gem 1981 British 50P is worth $3 (if one even exists).

[Mohawk]

Hi cladking,

You had some very fascinating insights into the discussion here. I especially liked what you said about the baby-boomer generation of US collectors putting off new collectors through belittling their collections. That's a very good point, and an important one to bring up. I know that I myself have been subjected to that by that collecting demographic. I actually had a dealer that I used to visit tell me that he "missed when I used to collect good old US coins" when I started moving into world coins. I've had collectors of this demographic wonder why I was " throwing my money away on that foreign instead of buying real coins (US coins)". I've even had collectors of that demographic call me a Nazi because I collect the coins of the Third Reich in a historical context as a part of my larger and extensive World coin collection. And that's just what's happened to me. I've seen similar things happen to other World Coin collectors, many of them relatively new to the hobby, at the hands of this same demographic. My girlfriend, who I mentioned above and actually is a younger ( age of 25) collector of US Coins, actually didn't collect US coins at all for the first few years of her life as a collector because she associated them so much with collectors like those mentioned above and their behavior. And now that she does collect them, she really works at defying those attitudes and showing that one can participate in all parts of this great hobby and treat all involved with inclusion, kindness and respect. That's what she and I are both all about, and I'd say the same is true of all of the World collectors we know in our region and those we haven't met in person, but have been fortunate to share our hobby with online. Without this type of approach to people in all walks of life in numismatics, our hobby is doomed.

 

I also agree with your theories on why US coins aren't popular outside of the US. I'd say the strong dollar and the insane prices for many US coins has certainly been a big part of the picture there, for sure. But I also think that part of the issue is that many of the designs used on US coins simply do not appeal to the aesthetic tastes of those in other countries. For example, many American collectors simply adore the Morgan silver dollar. It is consistently praised by American collectors as one of the most beautiful of all coins, and it certainly has a huge collector base within the United States. But many German numismatists I know online think that the Morgan dollar is ugly enough to both stop a clock and gag a maggot. And the opinions on the coins with the bland profiles of American historical figures such as the Eisenhower Dollar, the Franklin Half Dollar and Roosevelt Dime are even lower. And I share these opinions, I'm sad to say. When you stack these coins up against the French Sower coins, the beautiful commemorative issues of both the German Empire and the Weimar Republic and the many stunning issues to come out of Latin America, these designs just don't stack up in the eyes of many World numismatists. But with issues with more international aesthetic appeal, like the Peace silver dollar and old US copper, I think the present price insanity is definitely the problem. I know that I myself find the Peace dollar to be aesthetically pleasing, and something that could potentially have a place in my collection, but the prices on nice ones are just totally insane and ridiculous right now.

 

Thanks for your insights into this discussion cladking, and I'm enjoying this thread immensely. I'd also be pleased to be in a club or at a show with you as well.

~Tom

 

 

 

 

[Mohawk]

oops....I got a *spoon* in my paraphrasing. I apologize for using language unbecoming of this forum, even if I was paraphrasing

[joes2001]

I am enjoying this thread as well. I happen to agree a lot with you, Tom. I have never heard that US coins aren't popular around the world. That is something very interesting. I always assumed US coins were so great (because of the high prices of a lot of them) that many around the world collected them as well. It appears that this isn't the case though. I hope that you're right about world coins increasing in popularity and price, as time moves on. It seems likely. I have a huge collection of raw, world coins that aren't much in value (1-5 dollars each probably, or less) but I enjoy them immensely. I just want to gobble as much of them up as I can. These days, they are really all I can afford. I always run into corroded zinc nazi coins and I think they're just awesome. There are so many people I've showed them to who are just as amazed, at least for the minute or two I've shown them. You're lucky, Tom, that you have a partner interested in coins like you! My wife is like anyother non-collector you show coins to; they just don't get it. In any case, I think in the long-run collecting coins that you enjoy is the best way to go, for a ton of reasons all numismatists would understand. Even if world coins stay at the point of popularity they are in now in the US, I will be quite happy. By the way, thanks for the kind words about inviting me to a coin show or club, hypothetically. The same goes for you!

[Mohawk]

Hey again joesabet,

Another nice post! I'm glad to hear that you share a love for the Third Reich coins as well. They really are amazing historical artifacts that represent their time and place in an amazing way! Also about my girlfriend.....thanks for the kind words there as well! I am very lucky, she's a great coin collecting buddy and partner in all other ways as well. She's one of the very best things to ever happen to me in my life. She's actually on the Registry here as well (her name online is Critter8880). I'm sorry your wife isn't into it though. Ah well, guess the bug doesn't bite everyone. And you spoke the truth when you said the most important thing is to collect coins that you enjoy. That's the true path to numismatic happiness, and the path that I follow. If the money comes, it comes and that's a nice bonus. But even if it doesn't, you'll still have coins you love and a collection that pleases you. I have very valuable coins, like my German Reichskreditkassen coins and Ottoman key dates, and lower value coins like my Chilean Libertad Pesos and Italian silver 500 Lire but I absolutely adore them all and they put a smile on my face every time I see them.

 

May I ask what you enjoy collecting? I'd really like to know.

 

Until we talk next

Cheers and Warmest Regards

~Tom

[joes2001]

Hello Tom. Very nice post. I've never heard of a German "Reichskreditkassen" coin, and I'm not familiar with the Chilean Libertads. They sound interesting though.

 

I am one of those collectors who has a lot of everything: US coins (I don't seek them out too much anymore though), world, some tokens, etc. I primarily buy coins that I think are a great deal. I find them most of the time at antique/flea markets. I try and find really great buys, keep a few that I really like, and sell the rest at a profit. I don't always do this a lot, but sometimes I get lucky.

 

When I have some money to spend, like at a coin show or something, I mainly look for world coins. In general, I love beautiful silver coins. I recently got interested in Brazil's early 20th century coinage, both silver and base metal coins. Some of the busts on the coins remind of early US coins. They look tremendous when there's luster present. I also like modern greek coinage (20th century), canadian, German 20th century, scandanavian, etc. etc. The list could go on and on. Thanks for asking though!

 

How about you? What are some of your primary and secondary interests? Best,

 

Joe

[Mohawk]

Hey Joe,

It sounds like you have a very cool collection!! It's funny that you mention the Brazilian issues and their resemblance to early US coins......my girlfriend has expressed a desire to start collecting those for the same reason!! And I must say, they are absolutely gorgeous, no doubt about it! I like looking for deals myself. As for my collection, my primary areas of pursuit are the Ottoman Empire and early Turkish Republic, Lebanon, Germany ( mainly the Third Reich, but I'm starting to expand out into the Weimar Republic and some Bundesrepublik issues ( both the West Germany and Unified Germany versions), Chile and I have an almost complete set of silver Mexican Libertads. My Third Reich collection is multi-national as I'm including the issues for The Netherlands, Poland, Belgium and Bohemia and Moravia in that collection. I'm also considering adding Vichy France in there eventually as well.

 

I think my main goals are to have as near a complete set of all Third Reich issues including the countries above and I really want to complete my Ottoman Nickel 5, 10, 20 and 40 Para sets. I'm also working on a set of silver 5 kurush coins in the Ottoman Empire area as well. I think what I really desire most is a truly international collection, with a number of sets from a variety of nations. ( my girlfriend made the point with me the other night that I should have a US set in there as well which will likely be Peace Dollars because they are really the only US regular issue that I like, if I do it.) As for the Chilean Libertads and Reichskreditkassens, here are my sets. Check them out, you might dig them

 

http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=151483]

 

http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=153150

 

http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=138996

 

http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=138994

 

I'll admit it, the Reichskreditkassens are quite pricey but the Chilean Libertads are VERY affordable, and they provide a challenge. I think they're also poised to move up some as many Chileans in our age group are starting to collect them as momentos of their birth years and childhood memories. This is a good sign. I also do the flipping thing to fund my collecting. It can take a lot of looking, but when you do hit something nice, it's a great feeling and fun to sell as well!! The main thing with cherrypicking is persistence. It pays off, trust me. If you keep looking, you'll eventually find something. I mostly cherrypick US to sell though, because when I find World stuff, I almost always keep it unless it's a duplicate

 

Best Regards

~Tom

 

 

[joes2001]

Hey there again. I have to say that I love your registry sets! Wow. You are really on to something. You did a nice write up on them, have nice examples, etc. And you know your politics! I like what you said about the Chile's coup. I've read about it numerous times in my Chomsky books. I've seen those occupation Nazi coins a few times, I think once on ebay. They are definitely rare. I've also seen those Chilean coins but never looked into them. I will now!

 

I was reading a caption for the nazi coin you had conserved and I was thinking about cleaning and everything. If you don't mind me asking, what type of preserving/cleaning do you do from time to time? I know in general it's better to leave coins alone, but I occasionally use acetone with a q-tip. I've found that it doesn't affect the color and is not abrasive on circulated coins. However, I once made the mistake to use it on a few 1965 proof greek coins and they had noticeable hairlines. I didn't even swap them hard but they still showed. I'd be interested on your take on this, considering you are probably a more advanced collector. Thanks for your time.

 

Joe

[Mohawk]

Hey again Joe,

Thanks for the kind words about my sets! I'm glad that you enjoyed them and that I may have inspired a love for the Chilean Libertads in you. They really are a beautiful and enjoyable pursuit......but be prepared for a challenge if you want grades over MS 65, especially on the Copper-Nickel issues from 1976-80. I'm also glad that you appreciated the write-ups. Part of what makes coins fun and amazing is the history behind them, and as someone who is in the process of getting a Master's in History and plans to teach college-level history relatively soon, I'm always glad to have feedback on my facts and delivery of them. I also have no doubt that you will build some amazing sets yourself. You probably already have. Do you have any sets on the Registry here? If so, I'd love to check them out!!

 

As for cleaning and conservation, I only use three substances myself when attempting such things: acetone, olive oil and plain old soapy water. I've had good luck using those on silver, nickel, copper-nickel and copper coins. You can really get some nasty corrosion on coins of those metals off with just those. Though the olive oil is a long process, but it will often loosen verdigris when nothing else will. But I'd never recommend trying to do anything to coins made of zinc, iron or other highly reactive metals like that yourself. I did some experiments on some heavily corroded zinc German and Belgian coins, and all I succeeded in doing was making them much worse sadly. Thankfully, these were all common dates and they were already pretty bad to begin with. My Reichskreditkassens were conserved professionally by NCS, and it was worth it in both instances. The coins they worked on were the 1941-A 5 Reichspfennig and the 1940-J 10 Reichspfennig. I'd also leave any Proofs to the pros as well because of how easy it is to mar their surfaces. I haven't found a satisfactory way to work on proofs myself, and I've tried. All I succeeded in doing was killing a few modern US proof issues in the process of experimenting. What I'd recommend to try to teach yourself is when you get some corroded common dates in lots, see what you can do with the with olive oil, acetone and soapy water. It's the absolute best way to learn, and who knows, maybe you'll find the secret to successful zinc and iron cleaning and conservation! If you do, please share it with me!!

 

Hopefully this is of some help to you!! I'm really enjoying our dialogue on here, it's a ton of fun talking coins with you!

 

~Tom

[joes2001]

Hi. Yeah, I definitely enjoy our disscussion. Congrats on going through the process of getting your master's in history. What a wonderful subject. One of my favorite historians is the late Howard Zinn (considered by a lot of people as an activist historian, as if mostly everyone else is objective ). I love his work and what he believed in.

 

I have an MA in political science, from CSUF over here. In that program I studied mainly political philosophy and international relations. I wanted to teach junior college, but it's so competitive here in southern California that there's just no openings. There's only waiting lists, for the most part. Other subjects, namely some of the sciences and math, seem to always have openings. In any case, I didn't really enter the program to find a related job in the end; altough it would be nice.

 

Anyways, yeah those coins you have are marvelous. I was looking through the KP catalogue and noticed their prices for the Chilean coins you have. I think in this case, the KP guide is unhelpful, especially in the high mint grades. It must take a lot of work to figure out the scarcity and real value of some of your coins.

 

I don't believe I have any world coins on active registries. I thought I read somewhere that you could create custom sets, but I thought that was just for raw coins, and for fun. At first when I started registering coins, I got really into graded coins and was trying to complete a 20th century US type set. But I kind of gave that up as I sold off most of those coins. Some day I'll have to look into creating world sets. I just found this page that I think lists some of my sets: http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/PublicUserHome.aspx?PeopleID=158491

 

 

As far as cleaning proofs, I heard of some people carefully dipping them in acetone. I tried it but it definitely wasn't as helpful as swabbing a circulated coin. There was this other coin dip, I think it is called jeweluster or something. It was pink inside. It was a really good dip, I think mainly for unc's and proofs. It shined them up fast, but of course too much dipping overtime can result in dull coins. I got that stuff at a coin shop for 6 or 7 bucks. I got some other stuff but need to do some experimenting.

 

Sorry for the long essay!

 

Joe

[Mohawk]

Hey Joe,

Political Science is a fascinating field!! I'm sorry to hear about all of the waiting lists though.......it has to be frustrating to have done all of that work and not be able to get a job in your field. But So Cal is a competitive market as far as jobs in education are concerned. I've actually heard that from people I've been in school with and instructors as well. In my little corner of New York, things are a bit better, especially for someone with my specialty which is the Middle East and Europe. I'll probably end up teaching at my Junior College alma mater, which is where my main mentor in my field is the coordinator of the History Department. He's already expressed a strong desire to bring me on board once I finish my Master's and the main campus is just a couple miles from my house, which is another plus!!!

 

As for Howard Zinn.....I have only had the pleasure to work with a little bit of his work to date, but the little exposure I did have was wonderful!! I plan to seek out more of his work as I have the time to do so.

 

I took a look at your Registries as well, and you certainly have a great start! I saw the remains of your US Type Set and I also saw a couple of Swiss sets you have there......those are great coins!! I love the Swiss issues. I'm strongly contemplating putting together a set of the World War II era zinc issues myself ( I love zinc!! It's such a challenge and can actually be stunningly beautiful when found nice!) You certainly have the foundations of a great collection there. You were also right on about the Krause as far as the prices for the Chilean Libertad coins.....you can throw it right out the window, especially for mint state coins. They've been moving up even since I started collecting them. The last coin I purchased was a BU 1979 10 Pesos. I think the Krause lists it for like $1.50 in BU, but I had to pay $9.00 for it and was glad to do so. That one's a real toughie, even in circulated grades.

 

Your comments about dipping are intriguing as well. I've never tried it myself, but I think I will. I'll have to pick some different dips up and find some cruddy modern US proofs to experiment with. I'd love to be able to do some of my own conserving at home!!

 

And I apologize for my small essay!!

~Tom

[World Colonial]

Generally it's just not the data that are in dispute. We both have the same data and are interpreting it very differently. I used to have this same argument back in the '70's but in those days there were no valuable moderns so my only support was that I "knew" they were rare. Now there are thousands of moderns which have exploded in price despite their obviously lower demand highlighting just how rare they really are.

 

But,it will still take demand and time before the true scope of this is really known. Many moderns are excessively common and even huge demand woudn't have much affect on their price and it's entirely possible that some rare issues will never have demand.

 

I did not realize this topic was active again, so I am now back.

 

I agree we are looking at the same information (roughtly speaking), just a difference in perspective.

[World Colonial]

One of the weird things I've noticed about US coins compared to the coins of other lands are that US coins are popular in their homeland, but they really aren't elsewhere.

 

 

I have no direct knowledge of the popularity of US coins elsewhere, only anecdotal. However, I agree with this comment completely.

 

The first reason is that most collectors seem to favor coins of their "home country" or in some instances, near it. The same is true of the South Africa collectors I know as it appears to be for most on this forum.

 

The second reason is I believe what you stated in one of your posts; the price differences given what is being bought are absolutely absurd. It is a very unpopular view with some here but I do not see how any impartial observer can fail to see it.

 

Personally, even though I collect zero US coins today and have not since 1998, I actually think that US coin designs on balance are superior to those from elsewhere (as in a single country) when considering the same time period. The primary reason for this is that other countries disproportionately used the same designs for most or even all denominations (such as South Africa Union) and even though the portraits change when the monarch/leader changes, the difference is still not that great. An example would be the US draped bust design which I think is better than any portrait on British or colonial coinage.

 

However, this does not remotely offset the price differences. In my prior posts on this thread, I attempted to explain why I believe they currently exist and for the most part, will continue to do so.

 

But regardless, for any given budget, the world coin collector can easily buy better and far more significant coins for the same money than someone can from any US series. By my standards, there aren't any US coins of real distinction that are within reach of most US collectors.

 

This in my opinion accounts for the narrow specialization practices and the focus (obsession really) with trivial differences in actual quality represented by two different MS grades. Outside the US, I suspect that either no one or almost no one who does not follow US collection practices thinks the same way.

 

So given what I described, why exactly would any significant number of collectors outside the United States choose to pay existing prices for US coins when they can buy a real rarity for so much less? Except for US expats and a handfull who are "investing" in coins and need a liquid market, the answer is that they will not.

[World Colonial]

One thing for sure is there are going to be a lot of massive price changes in the future and a lot of the large increases will be in world coins as demand shifts to them and new domestic demand for many countries emerges. The future for all coins should be fairly rosy for at least half a century. Many are obviously very much underpriced compared to other collectibles.

 

Which other collectible fields do you have in mind? By my reckoning as much as I like coins, I do not believe they are cheap at all and this especially applies to US coins in the six digits and above.

 

I do not post there but you do. On the PCGS forum, there was a thread covering this topic and if necessary, I can find it. There, many discussed other fields such as art (paintings) and in a topic on the Bidor Buy forum, I also compared them to antique furniture, classic cars, comic books, books and a few others.

 

I don't really see any basis of comparison between coins and a field such as masters paintings at all and consider any idea that they are underpriced compared to them either irrelevant, ridiculous or both. In a prior Coin Week article, the author attempted to make an absolutely nonsensical comparison between the 1787 Brasher doubloon and "Scream" based upon the history of both items, as if the buyer of the latter even considered that factor in deciding what they paid. There is no reason to believe such a claim whatsoever.

 

I believe that coins deserve and will continue to be preferred to more recently developed collectible fields (such as comic books). At the same time, I do not believe they are cheap or reasonably priced compared to even other numismatic areas such as tokens or medals. The latter especially are dirt cheap with frequently vastly superior artistic quality and a direct and real historical connection as opposed to the disproportionately invented or imaginary one attributed to practically every single coin.

[Mohawk]

Hello world colonial!

It's good to see you chiming back in with some interesting points to add to the ongoing discussion. You made some great points, which I'd like to add to based on my experiences.

 

You made a point about collectors favoring coins from their home countries. I think with older collectors in the US, the over 40 group I mentioned earlier, this is very true. Most of them mainly focus on US coins. Some of them do a little World here and there, but they mostly focus on the US. And this might be true elsewhere too. From what I've experienced though, I'd say that it is actually less true of collectors in other countries compared to the US. Admittedly, most of my international contact is with European collectors and dealers, so I really only have a good sense of the situation there. However, in my experience, European collectors tend to be more international than US collectors. In my experience, it's been very rare to see a German collector who only collects German coins. Most of the collectors I've talked to there collect coins from many other European nations along with German coins. The same holds true of collectors I've talked to in Turkey, the UK and the Netherlands as well. European collectors seem to be just that: collectors of all of Europe, or a good chunk of it.

 

Now, I want to discuss my experiences with younger collectors, the below 40 group which Joe and I belong to. As I stated before, most younger collectors in my region do not pursue US coins at all. They seek out the coins of other nations without adding the US in at all, Admittedly, this could only be a regional thing that is true of collectors in my area but from what I've read here and elsewhere, I don't think that it is. The reasons for this vary. Price is certainly a part of it, as I think we've all mentioned and agreed upon. But I think that there are other factors involved too. Earlier in the thread, cladking made a mention of how many of the US-only collectors of the baby-boomer generation view World coins and the people who collect them. I won't rehash the whole thing, but suffice it to say that it's been my experience that many of them can be quite disrespectful of World coins and numismatists who collect them, often to the point of actually being abusive. I know I've actually felt abused by these people, and I've seen it happen to many other young collectors as well. I think that these people and their attitudes are one of the things driving younger numismatists away from US coins. Think about it. You're a young collector, you have a few US coins and a few, let's say, French coins. You go to a coin club, and you have one group who is rude and nasty towards you and your French coins. Then, you have another group who shows you and your coins kindness and respect. Which table do you want to be at? You want to be with that second group, the one who was kind to you. Especially if you had previously suffered at the hands of the other group. So many younger collectors are understandably throwing their lot in with the World collecting community for the simple fact that they can enjoy their hobby there and be respected and treated well. This is not to say that all US only collectors of all age groups are like this. They're certainly not, but enough of them are, in my experience, to really make it a factor in the choices that many younger numismatists make in their collecting lives.

 

Next, you mentioned your thoughts that US designs are often superior to those in other nations, such as the British Commonwealth where a portrait of the monarch is required to be one side of the coin in almost all instances. First off, before I even start, that is your opinion and I completely respect it. The US designs appeal to you aesthetically, and they clearly do to many people, particularly in their home country. BUT........I think I mentioned this somewhere in another response, many US designs lack international appeal. At least, in the case of European collectors I've communicated with. Designs like the Morgan Dollar, the Franklin Half Dollar, the Washington Quarter and the Buffalo Nickel have very little following elsewhere because their designs do not appeal to collectors in other nations. In my opinion ( and this opinion is shared by many World collectors I communicate with online and in person in my own area) those coins are every bit as boring and unattractive as the monarch portrait coins you mentioned above. Believe me, I know. I tried to sell and/or trade much of my old US collection internationally and had absolutely no luck whatsoever. No one wanted them. And these weren't junk. They were NGC certified key dates and better grade coins. But there is next to no demand for these coins in the nations I was communicating with people in. But what could I really expect? I didn't want them any longer either. There are US coins that do have a bit of an international following, such as old US copper, classic commemoratives and Peace Dollars, but that's really about it. I really doubt that the Morgan Dollar or the Buffalo Nickel will ever have a large international following. And once again, I'd like to reiterate that my experience comes almost entirely from European collectors and collectors in my little corner of NY. Things could be much different elsewhere.

 

I still think many US coins are poised for a drop in the coming decades as the older generation of collectors retire and pass on. There simply aren't enough younger collectors coming up to take the US torch from the older group for a whole variety of reasons. While the attitudes of the nasty and rude members of the older generation will go into history with them, the coins will still look like what they look like and they just don't have the widespread aesthetic appeal to many younger collectors. The prices will go down and become much more reasonable. That may help some with series that are appealing like the old copper and Peace Dollars and they'll likely recover some, but a Franklin Half, Eisenhower Dollar or Roosevelt Dime will still be just as ugly in 25 or 30 years as they are today. These coins seem to be collected by those who remember them as money and have that attachment, but the designs don't tend to capture the eye, heart and imagination of many who do not have that connection. Not when there is a whole world of stunning numismatic beauty available to a younger generation of numismatists who aren't afraid of seeking them out and learning about them on their own without a safety blanket like The Red Book or things like that.