Question about 1881-S Morgans

[wdrob]

I am curious as to whether it is normal for a 1881-S Morgan with PL like fields to have hairlines from die polishing or are the ones that I have seen just all happen to have been cleaned (Whizzed)?

 

I ask this question because as closely as I might look at one, like the one pictured, I see the hairlines but I do not see them going over the top of the devices as one might expect when a coin is whizzed?

 

Some coins I can clearly see thicker die polish lines that is unmistakeably during minting. Am I to assume that any of these with the 'fine' type of lines is an automatic Details Slab or are they a form of finer polishing lines?

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for any help.

[MarkFeld]

Some PL examples will display mint-made die polish lines, but most others won't. And the ones that do will typically not display heavy die polish lines.

 

A coin can be cleaned and not whizzed, accounting for the lines crossing from the fields, over the devices.

[wdrob]

The fields on this one are deep mirrored and you can recognize text, not legibly, but you can see it from 4 to 6 inches away. The hairlines are extremely uniform and they do not cross the device. Such as under the eagles chin, there is uniform lines yet they do not appear on the eagle under microscope so that is why I was asking.

 

I have got rid of so many 1881-S Morgans simply because they had hairlines and I thought they were whizzed or cleaned somehow. Then I thought I read somewhere or someone had told me that they were actually die polishing. I think I may send this one in one day..... well never mind; I forgot I was getting out of the slab business and going strictly raw coins.

 

I will be listing all my ASE slabs, Modern Comm, well just about anything in a slab will be drastically reduced once I get all these pictures and product posts worked out. It will be one hell of a sale.

 

Thanks Mark for the info.

 

[MarkFeld]

The one you pictured does not look natural - it appears that it has been cleaned, polished or whizzed.

[wdrob]

Mark if one whizzes a coin would it not leave continuation marks on the devices as well as the fields.

 

How can one whizz without touching the devices?

[Coindude]

I personally don't like the look of it. It looks very unnatural. I feel it's been cleaned or polished in some fashion. My original thought is that it had been cleaned with an eraser.

[BillJones]

From that picture, that coin does not look right to me. It looks like it's been brushed extensively in one direction from north to south or vice versa.

 

As for the comment about devices versus the fields, the brush lines are far more obvious in the fields than they are on the devices because the nature of the surfaces in each area. The fields on many any Mint State 1881-S have some mirrored aspects to them which the devices are frosted. The mirrors show the hairlines more readily than the devices which are a matte surface.

[wdrob]

It looks like it's been brushed extensively in one direction from north to south or vice versa.

 

Yes it looks that way in the picture. I set that image up intentionally to get the best view I could of the lines however they all do not go from North to South, etc.. They are horizontal and vertical and it just depends on what angle you hold it as to whether you can see the other lines.

 

Maybe later I can take the microscope and zoom in on a letter and you will see how the faint lines actually go under the letter and in the letter and on the other side of the letter yet the letter itself shows no striations.

 

Appreciate the opinions.

 

Bill

 

[yonico]

 

well never mind; I forgot I was getting out of the slab business and going strictly raw coins.

 

Is that a good idea, especially in times like this when you cannot determine if the coins is just a PL example or a problem coin..?

 

as for the coin, it does look unnatural in your pics, and my guess would be polished.

 

by the way, if the coin was either cleaned in any way OR if these are die polish lines, the lines would be a lot easier to see on the fields than on the devices.. so they might be on the fields and the devices, just look bolder on the fields

[MarkFeld]

Mark if one whizzes a coin would it not leave continuation marks on the devices as well as the fields.

 

How can one whizz without touching the devices?

 

Presumably it would, unless, for some odd reason, only a portion of the coin was whizzed.

[wdrob]

Is that a good idea, especially in times like this when you cannot determine if the coins is just a PL example or a problem coin..?

 

Sure it is. I don't now, nor will I ever, collect slabs like you or possibly others. I got involved in 'Coin Collecting' because I liked the history behind the coin. The TPG process and slab portion of the hobby is something that I have questioned since I became involved since their is a great amount of inconsistency involved. You have to look no further than current questions about it on the forum and when a person submits a coin once, twice, or more only to get a coin BB'd and then placed into a slab after a number of tries ( or a number of dollars depending on your position on the matter) so it would seem that even 'Professional Graders' can't tell the difference between the two.

 

 

Presumably it would, unless, for some odd reason, only a portion of the coin was whizzed.

 

Yes I understand but I don't see any way possible to whiz under the chin of the eagle and not touch either the main body of the eagle or the head in the very least. And that is looking at it through a microscope. So I will just conclude that these are fine die polish lines since I think you had already answered my question on that by saying "And the ones that do will typically not display heavy die polish lines.". These are not heavy lines at all and that would be consistent with your experience.

 

Thanks for all the answers and opinions.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Is that a good idea, especially in times like this when you cannot determine if the coins is just a PL example or a problem coin..?

 

Sure it is. I don't now, nor will I ever, collect slabs like you or possibly others. I got involved in 'Coin Collecting' because I liked the history behind the coin. The TPG process and slab portion of the hobby is something that I have questioned since I became involved since their is a great amount of inconsistency involved. You have to look no further than current questions about it on the forum and when a person submits a coin once, twice, or more only to get a coin BB'd and then placed into a slab after a number of tries ( or a number of dollars depending on your position on the matter) so it would seem that even 'Professional Graders' can't tell the difference between the two.

 

 

Presumably it would, unless, for some odd reason, only a portion of the coin was whizzed.

 

Yes I understand but I don't see any way possible to whiz under the chin of the eagle and not touch either the main body of the eagle or the head in the very least. And that is looking at it through a microscope. So I will just conclude that these are fine die polish lines since I think you had already answered my question on that by saying "And the ones that do will typically not display heavy die polish lines.". These are not heavy lines at all and that would be consistent with your experience.

 

Thanks for all the answers and opinions.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

I would not conclude that you are seeing "fine die polish lines". The coin looks very unnatural. So if it hasn't been whizzed, it has almost certainly been cleaned or polished. And the lines could be one of the results.

[wdrob]

 

Does this look any more normal?

 

I had intentionally tried to make the hairlines show up on the first picture.

 

 

 

[BillJones]

Does this look any more normal?

 

It does not look normal for a problem free coin. If the color in the picture, which has a bluish cast to it, is what the coin really looks like, the piece has been processed. I have not seen this sort of thing for years, but I confess I have not been looking in the right places in most dealers' inventories to see something like this for quite a while. As I recall a chemical could be used in conjunction with the whizzing brush which imparted this odd ball color. At least that's the way it seemed to me because all of the coins that I have seen with this color have been whizzed.

 

A nice 1881-S dollar has brilliant white luster. There might be some die polish marks on selected pieces that resembles the hairlines you showed us here, but they will be raised from the surface, not IN the surface.

 

[wdrob]

Hahahaha!

 

Sorry Bill

 

That blue color is not the color of the coin. It is my Digital Instant Camera and I was trying some different 'Scene Modes' to try and get better and more accurate representations of some of the toned coins I have. That just happened to be one of the off color tries.

 

No it is 100% Silver in color

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is more accurate. Cleaned, whizzed, etc.. It is what it is. I was just curious about some Morgans having fine hairlines from the mint and I think you folks answered that.

 

Sorry for all the confusion.

 

 

[yonico]

Is that a good idea, especially in times like this when you cannot determine if the coins is just a PL example or a problem coin..?

 

Sure it is. I don't now, nor will I ever, collect slabs like you or possibly others.

 

 

 

unless you're referring to my collecting of sample slabs, i most certainly do not collect slabs. only since you decided to buy raw coins all of a sudden does not give you the right to assume i and "possibly others" collect slabs.

 

all i was saying is that maybe before deciding to go with all raw coins and ditch the slabbed ones all together, one should learn a lot more about the coins he collects and have enough knowledge about problem coins. this way, one would not end up buying a problem coin, or need to get a second opinion on it AFTER buying the coin, and maybe be stuck with a whizzed/polished coin for which he paid good money.

 

I'm not afraid to admit that i'm not educated enough to go "all raw", and i rather spend a bit more on a certified coin than to shell out the money on a raw coin that i would have to then seek opinions on to whether it is a PL coin or a problem coin..

 

i hope for you that you will not end up buying other problem coins or counterfeit coins in the name of "buying all raw" alone.

 

some people can raw coins only, but it is definitely not for everyone....

[wdrob]

unless you're referring to my collecting of sample slabs, i most certainly do not collect slabs. only since you decided to buy raw coins all of a sudden does not give you the right to assume i and "possibly others" collect slabs.

 

 

Yes Sample slabs is what I was referring to.

 

 

[Coindude]

Rob, no offense, but it looks like you are trying to get us to agree that you didn't make a mistake on the purchase of this coin. The fact is, you are having some pretty high power guys who know what they are doing with both slabbed and raw coins, telling you that the coin is at best questionable and at worst a chunk of silver.

 

From your new pictures, I believe the whole coin has been whizzed. The reverse breast feathers are flat and the new pictures show shine on not only the fields but the devices as well.

 

It's not always fun hearing bad news about your coins.... ok, strike that, it's never fun hearing bad news about your coins but it is educational. Take it for what it's worth.

[wdrob]

Rob, no offense, but it looks like you are trying to get us to agree that you didn't make a mistake on the purchase of this coin. The fact is, you are having some pretty high power guys who know what they are doing with both slabbed and raw coins, telling you that the coin is at best questionable and at worst a chunk of silver.

 

I don't think you read the original post that I made because if you had then you would see that was never my intention at all. It turned into that by others. I simply asked if there were some Morgans that had fine die polishing lines from the mint since I was told that by another person.

 

"Hey Bill

got it, thank you

so here is the deal, it is a known variety VAM-19

these do come from the mint with a polished reverse

so this coin might make the grade but it is common so it is probably not worth the risk, but that is you choice .

would you like me to send it back to ya??"

 

This Morgan is of no real consequence to me. I think I paid $22.00 for it. I believe melt would be $17.50 or $18.00. So I paid $2.00 over spot?

 

Not hardly any reason there to feel bad or "trying to get us to agree that you didn't make a mistake on the purchase of this coin." It seems that happens a lot. I came in to ask a specific question about mint polish lines and if what I was told and quoted above was accurate and somehow, someone will jump in there and re-route the entire thread. However, I am sure I am partly to blame for that since I was asking a question that had nothing to do with "Hey what do you think this will grade" all while posting in the board for guessing grades. I will just have to post in another place if I have similar questions in the future.

 

By reading back I am sure that you will find where and when it was re-routed.

 

Thanks for the feedback and no I did not take it personal.

[Red Llama]

It might of been gently whizzed?

 

I'm going off on a limb a bit but it could of been an old lacquered coin (Everybody used to do that especially in the 70s) and was lightly whizzed.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Cleaned or whizzed - it does not look like a PL piece of the era to me.