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Let's discuss some Seated Dollars

15 posts in this topic

I am posting images of 4 Seated Dollars from the Linda Collection. (Thanks to Linda's Daddy for the images...)

 

What can you tell me about these coins? I.e., rarity, condition census, etc.

 

1. 1845, PCGS MS62

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2. 1850-O, ex Amon Carter, NGC MS61

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3. 1871-CC, PCGS EF40

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4. 1872-S, PCGS MS62

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EVP

 

PS That ``scratch'' on the '50-O by star 1 is actually lint, probably from the dog.

 

PPS Thanks to KDagen for hosting the images!

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1845 with 2 others at MS-62, one higher at MS-63, all at PCGS. One in 62 and three in 63 at NGC, plus the Norweb in 64.

 

1850-O, find me a Seated Dollar with toning like this and I'll be a fan any day. Only a few higher, with one in MS-64, two in MS-62 at PCGS. Four in 63 at NGC.

 

1871-CC, only three in MS between the services, a 61 at NGC and a 63 at each. Several exist in grades up to 58, but a rare coin nonetheless. Lowest mintage of the With Motto Type.

 

1872-S has three in 63 and three in 64 at PCGS, plus four 62's, one 63, and two 64's at NGC.

 

All rare pieces, with less than a handful of MS pieces known for each date, with no date having a gem example. smile.gif

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that 1850-O is very pretty!! thats about all I know about them, sorry.

 

Yes, that coin is very pretty. It has the trademark ``Amon Carter'' diamond tab toning. It is very flashy, but somewhat marky. I would say that that is consistent with the grade. This exact specimen, btw, was graded AU in the Stack's 1984 catalog of the Amon Carter Sale. In a very early generation NGC holder, this coin was also graded AU50.

 

As for not knowing more, that's ok. I appreciate your attempt at participation.

 

EVP

 

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EVP,

 

How hard is it to find common date Seated Dollars in AU to low MS grades (say 58 to 62) with the toning similar to the 1850-O? Seems like most of the Type coins I see have the standard dipped white, or at best, dipped golden color.

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All rare pieces, with less than a handful of MS pieces known for each date, with no date having a gem example.

 

That is correct. They are all scarce in any problem-free condition, and prohibitively rare in true UNC grade. These four dates I selected are the rarest in UNC for their respective mints. I.e., the 1845 is the rarest P-mint Seated Dollar.

 

1845 with 2 others at MS-62, one higher at MS-63, all at PCGS. One in 62 and three in 63 at NGC, plus the Norweb in 64.

 

You cannot trust the pops on any of these coins. This exact specimen is probably in the top 3, and likely the 2nd finest known. The Norweb coin is undisputably the finest in grade and eye appeal. The MS63 specimen is reputedly to have negative eye appeal due to its toning. It is likely that all 4 MS63 specimens are the same coin. One of the PCGS MS62 specimens is a slider that was retoned. I do not know about the remaining two MS62 specimens, at least one of which is NOT a phantom stat due to regrades.

 

What can anyone say about the technical characteristics of this coin? Or, of this date in general? (This specimen, btw, is fairly representative of all UNC 1845 dollars, which doesn't say much since there's only about a half dozen in UNC.)

 

1850-O, find me a Seated Dollar with toning like this and I'll be a fan any day. Only a few higher, with one in MS-64, two in MS-62 at PCGS. Four in 63 at NGC.

 

The lone MS64 specimen is the Fairfield specimen. It has a very distinctive mellow and attractive peripheral toning. It was also in the Bowers Rarities Sale (1/03) and sold for about $25K I believe. I believe the pops to be horribly skewed for this date. I don't believe that the 2 MS62 and 4 MS63 specimens represent 6 unique specimens. In fact, I am inclined to believe that they represent at most 2 unique specimens. The common belief among specialists is that there's at most a half dozen true UNC specimens.

 

What can anyone say about the technical characteristics of this coin or this date in general?

 

1871-CC, only three in MS between the services, a 61 at NGC and a 63 at each. Several exist in grades up to 58, but a rare coin nonetheless. Lowest mintage of the With Motto Type.

 

In circ grades, this coin is fully priced when compared to the other dates in the series. Still, this coin is a legitimate key date. It is also exceedingly rare in UNC. My instincts tell me that the two MS63 specimens are the same coin, and that the MS61 coin may not be a true UNC. There is great debate amongst the specialists as to which of the '71-CC and '73-CC is the rarest CC mint in true UNC. The PCGS MS63 specimen is ex Norweb, and more recently ex Nate Sonnheim.

 

(Refer to the Bowers 9/98 catalog for more information on the 4 fabulous UNC CC dollars of Nathan Sonnheim.)

 

Once again, what can people tell me about the technical characteristics of this date?

 

1872-S has three in 63 and three in 64 at PCGS, plus four 62's, one 63, and two 64's at NGC.

 

This date should have no more than half dozen in true UNC. I am certain that several of the 5 MS64 specimens belong to one single specimen -- the Eliasberg coin. That coin was bought from the sale by two dealers who dipped it -- curse them! -- and also tried to get it into an MS65 holder a few times. Once again, beware of buying any darkly toned UNC specimens; they're likely not UNC's...

 

BTW, this date is only the 2nd rarest in the series of S-mint dollars. The rarest is the 1870-S. I think we can use the 1872-S instead for this discussion!

 

Once again, what can people tell me about the technical characteristics of this specimen or of this date in general?

 

EVP

 

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How hard is it to find common date Seated Dollars in AU to low MS grades (say 58 to 62) with the toning similar to the 1850-O? Seems like most of the Type coins I see have the standard dipped white, or at best, dipped golden color.

 

Nearly impossible. The toning on the 1850-O is characteristic of the Amon Carter coins. Carter (Senior, I suppose) had special holders made for his coins, and it is his custome holders that imparted this diamond tab toning.

 

Most of these big cartwheels have been seriously abused over the long years. The vast majority of them is no longer original. Like ED's, if you find 'em in nice original condition, then gobble them up. They are super rare when original and bring huge premiums at auction!

 

EVP

 

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Don't know much about the technical aspects of the coins or the dates in question. I will say that the populations between services look to be too similar, and that you could safely take the pop numbers and slice them in half at the minimum. The numbers almost line up in a way that is conspiratorial in nature.

 

Looking at some of the prices realized while researching the pop initially, it seems that for the true rarity of the pieces, the prices are way out of line, and that this series presents a lot of buying opportunities relative to other classic series.

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Most of these big cartwheels have been seriously abused over the long years. The vast majority of them is no longer original. Like ED's, if you find 'em in nice original condition, then gobble them up.

 

Grumble, grumble. Guess I'll have to look for fully struck and settle for that. These should be coming up pretty soon in the Type set rotation now that I've cleared the Trade Dollar hurtle.

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Guess I'll have to look for fully struck and settle for that.

 

A huge number of the dates do not come fully struck -- even the lowly 1859-O! Don't pass on a prefectly nice specimen just because the strike isn't perfect.

 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. For Keith, the advice is free. For the others, I'll decide based on if your handle has the following letters: T, D, N.

 

wink.gif

 

EVP

 

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Don't know much about the technical aspects of the coins or the dates in question.

 

Well, someone besides me has to do more. Otherwise, I'll feel like I'm talking to myself. Pretty soon, I'll be diagnosed as schizophrenic and being fitted for one of those funny white jackets whose sleeves go in the back!

 

As for your comment about the pops, I think that is very astute of you. This series is so rare at this grade level for many of the dates that dealers have been trying to make the next grade up for borderline coins by hopping them between the services over and over again.

 

A good example of how conditionally rare this series is the 1842. It is, by Seated coinage standards, common as sin in just about all grades. Yet, there is no known GEM specimen. Not just no known GEM specimen graded, but no known recorded true GEM specimen in any of the old big-time sales either. Imagine how many bogus MS64 entries there must be!!!

 

Another excellent example is the lowly 1859-O. That is a Treasury Hoard coin, and is common as sin in BU grades. It is the sine qua non of the No Motto type coins. Yet, it becomes a legitimate scarcity in MS63 -- even by Seated coinage standards! In MS63 and better, the 1859-O is an unbelievable rarity compared to the 1893-S at the same grade level.

 

EVP

 

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A few years back I decided that Seated Dollars were my next series of choice. I went to an ANA show ready to spend a significant amount to get my set started. I came away empty handed - there were very few available on the bourse floor and NONE that were eye appealing. I put my decision on hold after that experience!

 

All the best coins are locked up in sets and rarely come available. Linda's Daddy should be quite proud of his collection!

 

 

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Linda's Daddy should be quite proud of his collection!

 

Thanks. I'm either very proud, or very foolish compared to how much the stupid set cost me. And, I still have more upgrades to go! frown.gif

 

In 40 years or so, when I consider selling, I hope this set brings a good return!

 

Linda's Daddy

 

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What strikes me about the coins you posted, EVP, is the variability of strike. I know nothing about this series - NOTHING (Sgt. Schultz), but the differences in strike appear evident. Now let me place my foot in my mouth...

 

The most perfectly struck coin appears to be the 1845. I notice, inparticular, the detail in the drapery over Liberty's shoulder and in her hair adornment. These stand out on this specimen like no other, but are followed by the 1850-O, then 1872-S (and I simply cannot say for the circulated 1871-CC). I also notic the edge devices - stars and denticles - they are much more "crisp" on the 1845 specimen, and less so on the other two uncs.

 

As for the reverse, it would appear that a general problem for the type is how well the eagle's feathers strike up. Even thought the 1850-O and 1872-S are well struck, the feather detail is simply not comparable to the 1845, which is unreal. Every nook and cranny of the design was struck up on the 1845, both in central and peripheral devices. The edge lettering is the single area of weakness in the 1845, being most weak in the word STATES. The 1850-O has bold edge lettering, well struck there, and is followed by the 1872-S.

 

As for the circulated 1871-CC, I would guess that it takes a lot of looking to find a nice problem-free specimen as this. In many series, finding problem-free circulted coins is quite difficult, and when the rarity is great, as for this coin, it must be the proverbial needle in the haystack!

 

Okay, EVP, can I take my foot out of my mouth now? laugh.gifwink.gif

 

Thanks for the post. Hoot

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Good observations, Mark!

 

The quality of strike for this series is variable. The 1845 is a very low mintage date. It usually comes well struck, although I do admit that the fine details of the feathers are particularly apparent.

 

The 1850-O, on the other hand, is a very high mintage date when compared to the other three. This date frequently comes with some mushiness of the stars; this specimen does not have the characteristic mushiness.

 

Of these 4 examples, three of them tend to come quite PL in nature. (The exception is the 1850-O.) The 1845 also typically comes with noticeable die striations. This is particularly noticeable on the reverse image. This specimen also has nicely frosty devices, which adds to the slight cameo appeal. (Check out LD's 1862 MS specimen -- that's nearly a true CAM!!!)

 

The 1850-O typically comes slightly satiny to very slightly PL.

 

The 1872-S is generally very PL in aspect; I find this specimen to tend toward satiny a bit more than expected. For a low mintage date, I don't generally see any with die striations.

 

The 1871-CC is hard to characterize because it extant pop in high AU or MS grades is too sparse to generalize. It is true that all specimens at that level are PL. But, to say any more would be overplaying it.

 

BTW, on the matter of the CC Seated Dollars, the LIBERTY can be a bit weaker than usual because they come weaker than the non CC dates. If you'll notice, this specimen has a very sharp LIBERTY. That makes it a very meaty EF40 specimen.

 

EVP

 

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