who here hates a lowballer?

[coinman_23885]

For trade experts to ask "how much do you want for that?" with less knowledgeable customers is unethical. For them to use the critical analysis when buying and then use a slick sales program when selling is also not right.

 

I strongly disagree that "For trade experts to ask "how much do you want for that?" with less knowledgeable customers is unethical."

 

It would, however, be unethical for the expert to mislead the customer. I also think that it would be unethical to take advantage of a customer. But to ask the question - I see nothing the least bit unethical or improper in that.

 

I agree.

[coinman_23885]

 

Just for fun, for the coin in question, below what price level do you folks think an offer would become a "lowball" one? My answer would be anything below approximately $800, but perhaps I could be swayed.

 

Given that the buyer's premium at major auction houses is effectively paid by the seller, I am going to say that anything lower than 82.5-85% of current auction prices (i.e. cutting out the house's share) is a low ball. For this coin, I see this as a $950 coin (based on the data I posted above), so I would say anything equal to or less than approximately $785 dollars.

[KeeNoooo]

I get it all the time on Craigslist. They'll offer me a lower price without even having seen the item, or try to trade me some random . Or they'll show up for a minor item saying they thought it was free and made a mistake, and sorry, didn't bring money. So cheesy.

 

This was more of the reason why I started this thread. To hear some experiences......

Thank you!

 

That's a funny story! A waste of your time.....but funny! I would have laughed at the guy!

[KeeNoooo]

So I am selling off some coins.......

I have a 1909-S VDB wheat penny for sale. Its graded XF45 by PCGS.

I believe it is very attractive. A nice chocolaty brown color with great surface, no real noticeable marks to the naked eye.

I would say closer to AU.

Anyway, I have it up for a fair price and even allow buyers to make an offer that's reasonable.

So this guys sends me an offer that is less than half of my asking price! Its not like its damaged! You can't even buy an AG for what he offered........

Am I being silly or what everyone?

Any experiences like that?

 

Since you're the owner of the coin, the odds of your being objective aren't very good. That goes for other owners of coins (and/or whatever objects they have for sale), as well.

 

And you didn't state what your asking price was or what the other party offered. Without that additional information, I'm not prepared to pile on the "lowballer".

 

I just noticed this......

I don't believe I asked anyone to trash the "lowballer."

I was trying to hear some stories about "lowballers"

 

[coinman_23885]

I get it all the time on Craigslist. They'll offer me a lower price without even having seen the item, or try to trade me some random . Or they'll show up for a minor item saying they thought it was free and made a mistake, and sorry, didn't bring money. So cheesy.

 

Not to derail the thread, but I would have grave reservations about selling coins on Craigslist. There are more predators on there than eBay (I would wager). Meeting up with people is dangerous.

[MarkFeld]

So I am selling off some coins.......

I have a 1909-S VDB wheat penny for sale. Its graded XF45 by PCGS.

I believe it is very attractive. A nice chocolaty brown color with great surface, no real noticeable marks to the naked eye.

I would say closer to AU.

Anyway, I have it up for a fair price and even allow buyers to make an offer that's reasonable.

So this guys sends me an offer that is less than half of my asking price! Its not like its damaged! You can't even buy an AG for what he offered........

Am I being silly or what everyone?

Any experiences like that?

 

Since you're the owner of the coin, the odds of your being objective aren't very good. That goes for other owners of coins (and/or whatever objects they have for sale), as well.

 

And you didn't state what your asking price was or what the other party offered. Without that additional information, I'm not prepared to pile on the "lowballer".

 

I just noticed this......

I don't believe I asked anyone to trash the "lowballer."

I was trying to hear some stories about "lowballers"

 

Thread title: "who here hates a lowballer?" I don't think you were seeking praise for the guy.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

"I strongly disagree that "For trade experts to ask "how much do you want for that?" with less knowledgeable customers is unethical."

 

"It would, however, be unethical for the expert to mislead the customer. I also think that it would be unethical to take advantage of a customer. But to ask the question - I see nothing the least bit unethical or improper in that."

 

PNG has this rule on buying from "non-professional customers":

 

To refrain from any of the following in dealing with non-professional customers:

(a) buying or selling at unreasonable prices;

(b) using high pressure sales techniques;

© using misleading performance data;

(d) comparing coins graded by a fringe grading service with those graded by an industry standard independent grading service in a way calculated to create an inaccurate impression;

(e) intentionally misrepresenting the origin, provenance or pedigree of a coin;

(f) intentionally misrepresenting the weight of a coin;

(g) intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin.

(h) intentionally misrepresenting the investment potential of coins;

(i) intentionally misrepresenting an affiliation between myself and any Government agency. http://www.pngdealers.com/category.php?category_id=6

 

There was ad running on a NY area diamond and jewelry buying service. They stated plainly that it is unethical to ask the customer/owner of the jewelry "how much do you want"?

 

Who is the expert? How do industry experts determine value of certified coins? Current auction records, etc.. Knowledge is power and how it is used is governed by principles of right and wrong. Having a knowledgeable person go with a customer who is selling would be wise in many circumstances. I could give many examples of what I have witnessed based on experience of methods of paying less than fair market value.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

"I strongly disagree that "For trade experts to ask "how much do you want for that?" with less knowledgeable customers is unethical."

 

"It would, however, be unethical for the expert to mislead the customer. I also think that it would be unethical to take advantage of a customer. But to ask the question - I see nothing the least bit unethical or improper in that."

 

PNG has this rule on buying from "non-professional customers":

 

To refrain from any of the following in dealing with non-professional customers:

(a) buying or selling at unreasonable prices;

(b) using high pressure sales techniques;

© using misleading performance data;

(d) comparing coins graded by a fringe grading service with those graded by an industry standard independent grading service in a way calculated to create an inaccurate impression;

(e) intentionally misrepresenting the origin, provenance or pedigree of a coin;

(f) intentionally misrepresenting the weight of a coin;

(g) intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin.

(h) intentionally misrepresenting the investment potential of coins;

(i) intentionally misrepresenting an affiliation between myself and any Government agency. http://www.pngdealers.com/category.php?category_id=6

 

There was ad running on a NY area diamond and jewelry buying service. They stated plainly that it is unethical to ask the customer/owner of the jewelry "how much do you want"?

 

Who is the expert? How do industry experts determine value of certified coins? Current auction records, etc.. Knowledge is power and how it is used is governed by principles of right and wrong. Having a knowledgeable person go with a customer who is selling would be wise in many circumstances. I could give many examples of what I have witnessed based on experience of methods of paying less than fair market value.

 

 

None of the quoted PNG rules have anything to do with merely asking "how much do you want for that?" So I'm not sure why they were posted.

[Mark T]

These low ball offers are typical when you have a BIN. They are just trying to start at a very low price because they know when the seller counters they will have more room for a counter offer. If someone has made a stupid offer on one of my coins I usually send a nice memo with my counteroffer.

[Dudley the 1st]

There is nothing unethical about an experienced numismatist or a Professional Dealer asking this question. What may or may not be unethical is how the Dealer or experienced numismatist acts in response to what may or not be an ill-informed suggested value by the potential seller.

[Nutmeg Coin]

"None of the quoted PNG rules have anything to do with merely asking "how much do you want for that?" So I'm not sure why they were posted."

 

Causistry and sophistry. Heritage and other leading dealers do not play the how much do you want game with certified coins in most cases.

 

I can see "how much do you want?" being used between dealers but not with collectors or unknowledgable customers.

 

I have seen buyers play the "how much do you want game?" time after time. Oh, I guess it is the seller's fault if they sell $2500 in collectibles for a fraction of that.

 

So if they say they want $1000 for items that you well know are worth $2500, would you write a check or offer the $1000 in cash or tell them frankly that they are mistaken as to real value? Customers who have been ripped off by knowledgable dealers, pawn shop and gold buyers should report them to the state attorney general. In my experience they will take action after they see a pattern of unethical conduct.

[MarkFeld]

"None of the quoted PNG rules have anything to do with merely asking "how much do you want for that?" So I'm not sure why they were posted."

 

Causistry and sophistry. Heritage and other leading dealers do not play the how much do you want game with certified coins in most cases.

 

I can see "how much do you want?" being used between dealers but not with collectors or unknowledgable customers.

 

I have seen buyers play the "how much do you want game?" time after time. Oh, I guess it is the seller's fault if they sell $2500 in collectibles for a fraction of that.

 

So if they say they want $1000 for items that you well know are worth $2500, would you write a check or offer the $1000 in cash or tell them frankly that they are mistaken as to real value? Customers who have been ripped off by knowledgable dealers, pawn shop and gold buyers should report them to the state attorney general. In my experience they will take action after they see a pattern of unethical conduct.

 

I know of very few coin dealers (or other businessmen), who, when someone approaches them with somethng for sale, don't ask what the would-be seller is looking to get for the item(s).

 

In many or most cases the would-be seller is unknown to the other party, who has no idea regarding the seller's level of knowledge.

 

I don't think it's realistic or fair to require that a buyer make an offer on an item and not be able to inquire as to the seller's asking price.

[SWNGC]

I agree with Mark here. Regardless of what is being bought/sold, any party considering purchasing a given object is well within their means to ask the counterparty what sum they would like for the item being sold. Many sellers erroneously believe that potential buyers should somehow serve as their "experts" to assist them in determining value (this is not why they are in business). If you are ill prepared upon entering a transaction, just like if you are ill prepared upon entering any endeavor, you should not expect the end result of your actions to be "optimal". Research is easy, and for those who "freely choose" not to do it, they are WILLINGLY trading the time that they would have expended learning for whatever additional/marginal return they may have realized.

 

Obviously this does not morally apply if the other party is impaired in some fashion/etc and/or appears to lack the basic means of obtaining independent info on their own...

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I agree with Mark here. Regardless of what is being bought/sold, any party considering purchasing a given object is well within their means to ask the counterparty what sum they would like for the item being sold. Many sellers erroneously believe that potential buyers should somehow serve as their "experts" to assist them in determining value (this is not why they are in business). If you are ill prepared upon entering a transaction, just like if you are ill prepared upon entering any endeavor, you should not expect the end result of your actions to be "optimal". Research is easy, and for those who "freely choose" not to do it, they are WILLINGLY trading the time that they would have expended learning for whatever additional/marginal return they may have realized.

 

Obviously this does not morally apply if the other party is impaired in some fashion/etc and/or appears to lack the basic means of obtaining independent info on their own...

 

 

For the record, if a seller quotes a price which is obviously way too low, I don't feel that the the buyer should take advantage of him/her. But there is absolultely nothing wrong with a buyer inquiring as to the asking price.

 

The difficult part is determining what constitutes "obviously way too low" (or something similar to that) and specifically, how to adddress that situation, should it arise.

[Dudley the 1st]

So I am selling off some coins.......

I have a 1909-S VDB wheat penny for sale. Its graded XF45 by PCGS.

I believe it is very attractive. A nice chocolaty brown color with great surface, no real noticeable marks to the naked eye.

I would say closer to AU.

Anyway, I have it up for a fair price and even allow buyers to make an offer that's reasonable.

So this guys sends me an offer that is less than half of my asking price! Its not like its damaged! You can't even buy an AG for what he offered........

Am I being silly or what everyone?

Any experiences like that?

 

Since you're the owner of the coin, the odds of your being objective aren't very good. That goes for other owners of coins (and/or whatever objects they have for sale), as well.

 

And you didn't state what your asking price was or what the other party offered. Without that additional information, I'm not prepared to pile on the "lowballer".

 

I just noticed this......

I don't believe I asked anyone to trash the "lowballer."

I was trying to hear some stories about "lowballers"

 

Thread title: "who here hates a lowballer?" I don't think you were seeking praise for the guy.

[jackson64]

+1....who cares?..just chuckle and move on.

 

 

PS: I must say that I do get irked with the opposite end of the spectrum. I'll see a $50 coin with a BIN price of $200+ and I get irked--can't help it. I know I should ignore it but when I think that shady dealers or sellers are trying to take advantage of newbies or inexperienced collectors I get peeved.....maybe I should practice my chuckling and moving on also?

[KeeNoooo]

So I am selling off some coins.......

I have a 1909-S VDB wheat penny for sale. Its graded XF45 by PCGS.

I believe it is very attractive. A nice chocolaty brown color with great surface, no real noticeable marks to the naked eye.

I would say closer to AU.

Anyway, I have it up for a fair price and even allow buyers to make an offer that's reasonable.

So this guys sends me an offer that is less than half of my asking price! Its not like its damaged! You can't even buy an AG for what he offered........

Am I being silly or what everyone?

Any experiences like that?

 

Since you're the owner of the coin, the odds of your being objective aren't very good. That goes for other owners of coins (and/or whatever objects they have for sale), as well.

 

And you didn't state what your asking price was or what the other party offered. Without that additional information, I'm not prepared to pile on the "lowballer".

 

I just noticed this......

I don't believe I asked anyone to trash the "lowballer."

I was trying to hear some stories about "lowballers"

 

Thread title: "who here hates a lowballer?" I don't think you were seeking praise for the guy.

 

That was a rhetorical question used in my title to peak someone's interest and tell my quick little story. I was not looking for praise nor for anyone to bash the guy.

But your the professional right......you know what my intent was.....?

I simply was hoping to hear some fun little stories or feedback from experienced sellers.

For the record, I'm not a coin dealer...so I cannot afford to sell my coins at wholesale because in don't buy them for wholesale. I wish I did!

I said my peace, sorry I was unclear......

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I am curious.

Is it unethical for a knowledgeable collector to ask a Dealer or non-Dealer Buyer "How much will you give me for this?" ?

[Nutmeg Coin]

I agree with Mark here. Regardless of what is being bought/sold, any party considering purchasing a given object is well within their means to ask the counterparty what sum they would like for the item being sold. Many sellers erroneously believe that potential buyers should somehow serve as their "experts" to assist them in determining value (this is not why they are in business). If you are ill prepared upon entering a transaction, just like if you are ill prepared upon entering any endeavor, you should not expect the end result of your actions to be "optimal". Research is easy, and for those who "freely choose" not to do it, they are WILLINGLY trading the time that they would have expended learning for whatever additional/marginal return they may have realized.

 

Obviously this does not morally apply if the other party is impaired in some fashion/etc and/or appears to lack the basic means of obtaining independent info on their own...

 

 

For the record, if a seller quotes a price which is obviously way too low, I don't feel that the the buyer should take advantage of him/her. But there is absolultely nothing wrong with a buyer inquiring as to the asking price.

 

The difficult part is determining what constitutes "obviously way too low" (or something similar to that) and specifically, how to adddress that situation, should it arise.

 

So, where does it become clear that the buyer is "taking advantage"? What sort of research tools does the general public have at their disposal? Bullion and bullion-connected coins may be relatively easy to ascertain current value, but how many people do not have internet skills or many local, reliable, numismatic buyers? Or should they ship to some of the well known industry experts?

 

Case one: A lady walks into a shop with a large assortment of gold notes, some are star notes, the owner offers double face value, is that fair and how is she supposed to know reasonable market value, while knowing market value is the owners daily responsibility?

 

Case two: A lady walks into a pawn shop looking to sell her jewelry which has hunks of gold embedded in it, she says she is looking to pay a bill under $1000, which is what the owner gives her though the jewelry is worth considerably more.

 

Case three: A "gold buyer" offers $1200 for a bullion coin worth over $1900; there have been endless reports of consumers who wise up later after hearing reports various outfits sued for fraud. As usual, it takes quite a while for consumer advocates and law enforcement to catch up.

 

Dealer to dealer transactions are a different story. Most serious collectors have copies of Greysheet as well as online and auction records. Many people have no knowledge when it comes to inherited or otherwise acquired items. It is not a question of "impairment", and that is a dirty slam against the elderly and many others who do not have the resources or up to date information.

 

I spoke with a long term coin and jewelry company owner yesterday who never plays the "how much do you want game?". There may be a role in doing so with dealers or knowledgeable collectors. My advice for sellers is to do their research, get several offers before selling, and if going to sell, bring someone along to watch the transaction because not all buyers are honest like most people on these boards.

 

Good article on ethical fallacies: http://www.ethicsscoreboard.com/rb_fallacies.html

[AstroTrain]

From time to time I make lowball offers, but I always include a note that says "this is a low because..." And fill in the blank. Maybe I feel it's over priced, I know someone who will buy it from me and I want to make $ (roughly 10% most of the time), or a variety of other reasons.

 

I also get lowball offers a lot and my attitude on it is: it doesn't hurt to ask!

[BillJones]

I know of very few coin dealers (or other businessmen), who, when someone approaches them with somethng for sale, don't ask what the would-be seller is looking to get for the item(s).

 

In many or most cases the would-be seller is unknown to the other party, who has no idea regarding the seller's level of knowledge.

 

I don't think it's realistic or fair to require that a buyer make an offer on an item and not be able to inquire as to the seller's asking price.

 

I agree with Mark completely on this, especially when it comes to dealers on a bourse floor when a customer asks about the price of an item. There are a couple of dealers, whom I dislike, who play this game on the bourse floor. If you are a dealer who cannot extend the courtesy of telling a potential customer the price you want for an item, you are not much of dealer so far as I'm concerned. These are the guys I avoid when I go to a coin show. They are playing games and are looking to cheat the public if they can. That's my opinion.

 

When it comes to these who are offering items to dealers at a show it is a bit different. Sometimes they have no idea what something is worth and need help. Still it is much better if you have some idea what you want. As a dealer it tells me if it's worth my time to research the item or negotiate for it. If a seller has their "head in the clouds" it's better know that up front and waste both of our times.

 

[World Colonial]

Sometimes, it also depends upon what is being sold. In the field of US coins, most of them sell frequently enough where the market prices can be determined within a relatively narrow range.

 

With the coins I collect, this is either infrequently true or not true at all. Many of them sell infrequently in a particularly grade and some either "never" or almost never. This leaves both the buyer and seller to GUESS at what the "real" market value actually is at any given point in time.

 

In other instances such as with the South African Union coins I collect, the market prices are so unpredictable from one sale to the next and the spreads are so wide between different grades that any buyer (whether dealer or otherwise) would be crazy to offer what I interprept to be what you consider a "reasonable" offer. It would be crazy because it will often be a guaranteed method to consistently overpay and lose money.

 

To give you an example, on the BidOrBuy (SA Ebay equivalent) coin forum, someone recently posed the question on the value of other QEII MS-65 business strikes using the recent sale of a 1955 NGC MS-64 2/ as an example which sold for about $500.

 

I pointed out to them that MS-63 of most dates sell or are likely worth at most 10% of this price and a 1953 NGC MS-65 2/ sold on eBay about 18 months ago for a whopping $15. A coin I might add, which is approximately equally scarce to the 1955 according to the census.

 

So now, what exactly are these coins worth? $500, $15 or somewhere in between? My answer is the latter but I have no intention of paying anywhere near higher price, regardless of the fact that on occassion, a few other (slightly scarcer) dates have sold for the higher price and even somewhat more.

[MW-migration]

A 1909-S VDB in XF45 is just not that high-demand of an item. If you go to a show, you will notice that every dealer out there, no matter how big or small the show is, has a plethora of such coins to choose from... raw, slabbed, low-grade, high-grade... If you are selling the coin on Ebay then I guarantee that the only people interested will be people who don't really need the coin but think they can buy it cheap and re-sell it. I don't mean to be rude, but maybe you should leave the coin selling to coin dealers...

[BillJones]

When I was a dealer from 1995 to the mid 2000's the 1909-S-VDB in the circulated grades was a desirable item. If you put a certified example out for sale, it sold pretty fast if the price was right. The trouble is market structure on the coin provides very little mark-up for the dealer. Usually when make $700 to $1,000 sale you think that you might clear at least $70 to $100. You usually can't do that with a 1909-S-VDB, at least if you buy it at the Gray Sheet bid - ask levels.

 

 

[MW-migration]

So I am selling off some coins.......

I have a 1909-S VDB wheat penny for sale. Its graded XF45 by PCGS.

I believe it is very attractive. A nice chocolaty brown color with great surface, no real noticeable marks to the naked eye.

I would say closer to AU.

Anyway, I have it up for a fair price and even allow buyers to make an offer that's reasonable.

So this guys sends me an offer that is less than half of my asking price! Its not like its damaged! You can't even buy an AG for what he offered........

Am I being silly or what everyone?

Any experiences like that?

 

Since you're the owner of the coin, the odds of your being objective aren't very good. That goes for other owners of coins (and/or whatever objects they have for sale), as well.

 

And you didn't state what your asking price was or what the other party offered. Without that additional information, I'm not prepared to pile on the "lowballer".

 

I just noticed this......

I don't believe I asked anyone to trash the "lowballer."

I was trying to hear some stories about "lowballers"

 

 

I call BS... then why did you frame your post "who here hates a lowballer?" Maybe buyers just hate you...!?

[Nutmeg Coin]

It's fairly easy to put a number on coins like the 09s vdb in xf45; HA has free archives, buyers and sellers have access to this as well as the NGC and PCGS pricing sections on their sites in many cases. Free, no reason not to be able to get an accurate assessment on a graded coin; uncertifieds are another story. Yes, people make ridiculous offers for coins for various reasons. I just educate people on how to get top dollar not get ripped off. Psychologically there seems to be a minimization of the value of passed on coin collections; people inherit or are given valuable coins and currency and have no idea how much work is was to put it together. Some who are benefited by a great collection are fully informed and educated as to the value of what they are given.