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GTG: 1923 Toned Peace Dollar Edition

18 posts in this topic

The fields are too overlit and washed out to give you an accurate grade estimate. I think PCGS especially, and NGC also, would grade it UNC Details, Questionable Toning.

 

The colors are inconsistent with those normally seen on Peace dollars (honestly, the colors on the obverse are really funky, and would be questionable on any coin - that shade of blue is just weird). On the reverse, the absolutely perfect crescents of color are inconsistent with how Peace dollars were normally stored. This coin appears to claim to be a bag toned Peace - which makes me immediately question it.

 

So, overall, what I'm saying is, I call it "Questionable Toning - Not Market Acceptable."

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Quite an interesting piece there Kenny. By itself I believe the coin a 64. I'm not much a tone expert but I will give you my opinion. I personally don't like the color swirl on the lower left under the motto. I don't like the fact that there are no shadows near the letters which leads me to believe it is at least accelerated toning. The reverse is quite attractive but the double rainbow concerns me as well as the hard line between them. Also the weird gray line left of the rainbows strikes me as peculiar.

 

Again I'm not a toner expert so I will defer to their expertise I just thought I'd give an outsider opinion.

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I recently watched a video from the ANA library on defecting AT. Based on the video I would agree that this toning is suspicious for two reasons in addition to what has already been stated. . First, the toning climbs over the rim of the coin and second the toning goes over the device. For example, look at the O in OF on the reverse. According to the presentation you would expect to see the toning in the middle, but it would not appear on the lettering.

 

I'm still learning so my understanding may be suspicious as well ;)

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I recently watched a video from the ANA library on defecting AT. Based on the video I would agree that this toning is suspicious for two reasons in addition to what has already been stated. . First, the toning climbs over the rim of the coin and second the toning goes over the device. For example, look at the O in OF on the reverse. According to the presentation you would expect to see the toning in the middle, but it would not appear on the lettering.

 

I'm still learning so my understanding may be suspicious as well ;)

 

You are talking about the theory of "elevation chromatics" that certain members here swear by. However, when the lettering has such low relief, as on these coins, that theory often doesn't work. Elevation chromatics is a good indicator of authenticity, but it is not a hard-and-fast rule. On a coin with relief like the Peace Dollar, her neck, hair, and the head of the eagle would probably have different toning, but the lettering very well might not.

 

Of course, you make an excellent point that no changes are seen on those devices as well.

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I can confirm that this is very much not natural toning. Natural toning, typically, shows its true flare under natural light (sun light). Also, the bright, oily, fluorescent colors are a dead give away for unnatural toning. I collect and sell natural toned Morgans, etc. If you would like to see some examples of natural toning, click on the links below.

 

Link 1: Example under both natural light and unnatural.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4783733&fpart=2

 

Link 2: Example under natural light.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=14&Number=4766426&Searchpage=1&Main=221646&Words=&topic=0&Search=true#Post4766426

 

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I can confirm that this is very much not natural toning. Natural toning, typically, shows its true flare under natural light (sun light). Also, the bright, oily, fluorescent colors are a dead give away for unnatural toning. I collect and sell natural toned Morgans, etc. If you would like to see some examples of natural toning, click on the links below.

 

Link 1: Example under both natural light and unnatural.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4783733&fpart=2

 

Link 2: Example under natural light.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=14&Number=4766426&Searchpage=1&Main=221646&Words=&topic=0&Search=true#Post4766426

 

The examples you linked to were Morgan Dollars. Peace Dollars tone differently because of, among other things, different storage conditions. A valid comparison cannot be made based on the images that you listed. The rinse used by the mint on Peace Dollars was also more acidic than that used previously and some have speculated that this could inhibit toning as well.

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The examples you linked to were Morgan Dollars. Peace Dollars tone differently because of, among other things, different storage conditions. A valid comparison cannot be made based on the images that you listed. The rinse used by the mint on Peace Dollars was also more acidic than that used previously and some have speculated that this could inhibit toning as well.

 

Here you go. The one you posted, it is obvious that a circular shield plate was used while the "toned" area was treated by, probably, a mixture of sulfur/alcohol by whoever you purchased it from. This is a method most commonly used by ebay scammers, so purchase toners with extreme prejudice. They've been taking business away from us honest toner dealers.

 

Examples of natural tone.

 

example2%2520%25281%2529.JPG

 

example2%2520%25282%2529.JPG

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The fields are too overlit and washed out to give you an accurate grade estimate. I think PCGS especially, and NGC also, would grade it UNC Details, Questionable Toning.

 

The colors are inconsistent with those normally seen on Peace dollars (honestly, the colors on the obverse are really funky, and would be questionable on any coin - that shade of blue is just weird). On the reverse, the absolutely perfect crescents of color are inconsistent with how Peace dollars were normally stored. This coin appears to claim to be a bag toned Peace - which makes me immediately question it.

 

I definitely see what you and Sam are thinking, especially with the double rainbow crescent and it's why I think the coin could go either way at the services. That's why I posted here to see if anyone could reach a consensus.

 

I appreciate everyone's opinions and help. It is much appreciated as always.

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Wow, that's a tough one. If it were a Morgan, I don't think anyone would question it, but I've never seen a rainbow like that on a peace dollar. I'd love to have one though!

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This coin appears to claim to be a bag toned Peace - which makes me immediately question it.

 

What do you think about this bag toned Peace Dollar?

1923PeaceDollarCombined.jpg

 

 

As I've said before, that coin has highly unusual colors and patterns for a Peace dollar - but I don't see anything that jumps out at me as fake. I'd call that one well within the bounds of market acceptable. I'm also not convinced that it is bag toned, despite having certain similar characteristics.

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Personally I do not think this coin will grade.

 

With that said I would pay a premium and keep the coin regardless. I do find it very attractive.

 

Also as to AT NT and all that I suppose it comes down to who decides what is market acceptable.

 

I do believe that vibrant toned peace dollars are being searched for by many collectors and as long as these collectors continue to submit those coins the threshold of MA will be pushed. If it does not grade today I would imagine that at some point in time not too far off it will.

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Interesting, we as well as the TPG s make judgements on the toning of coins without ever knowing the storage environment or potential chemical alteration of a coin. Forget about the volumes of information available on toning. There are dozens of articles on how to detect Artificial toning, some very good theories but not one is definitive.

 

The TPG s are concerned with Market Acceptance no matter the environmental or chemical treatment history.

 

We as collectors, must decide whether to accept the judgement of a TPG or our own judgement on whether a coin with "pretty colors" got that way through "natural" processes or was aided by modern chemistry.

 

That is why I do not collect rainbow toned coins.

 

BTW, based on my limited knowledge, I believe the OP s coin is AT.

 

Carl

 

 

 

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