do you like/is there value in proof 63 19th and early 20th century type coins??

[michael]

with regards to proof 63 type coins of 1860 to 1915

 

where they are not choice to gem grades pf64 to 67

 

but better than proof 61 62 examples do you feel they have potential?

 

are value opportunity buys in this market??

 

will have increased demand as this market and new collectors mature?

 

are there some series in 1860 to 1915 proof coins that have better eye appeal in proof 63 grades?

 

 

michael

[Leothelion]

Timing is everything when it comes to selling!

 

Leo

[kryptonitecomics]

Yes I love them.........no I can't afford them.............as a whole I don't seem them appreciating in value quickly.

[TomB]

I don't see them rising as a group simply because so many of the coins in this grade have "price-limiting" defects such as severe or multiple patches of hairlines. Should one of these coins be otherwise choice, except for a relatively larger sized mark, then I could see that individual coin being wanted by a broader market. I think the matte proof coinage has better eye appeal in PF63 than the brilliant proof coinage does. Therefore, matte proof gold, Buffalos and Lincolns more often appear nicer than the PF63 grade to me.

[michael]

tom you hit the nail on the head with proof 63 coins if they have great eye appeal they are desirable wanted value opportunity coins to buy

 

and with no nicks or stains or marks and even if hairlined lots they are light and are not really heavily scrubbed and and also solid cameos too then a great coin

 

but usually these proof 63 coins are few and far between

 

but most all of the proof 63 coins do not look as such as usually they look like they have been run over by many cars when in the middle of the road and are just plain ugly

 

but you can still find some great eye appealling cameo proof 63 coins if you go out there and look hard enough

 

 

 

michael

[Hoot]

but you can still find some great eye appealling cameo proof 63 coins if you go out there and look hard enough

 

 

 

michael

 

If luck is on our sides, we might do so well!

 

If they have been left alone for long enough, perhaps they will have developed some nice toning.

 

Lustrous pieces are tough in this grade range, as so many have been dipped out!

 

Hoot

[EZ_E]

I agree with the above comments, Michael. If I found a PR 63 with the eye-appeal there then I would jump on it, especially with a cameo. However, I would avoid a hairlined proof like the plague as I'm sure that most would.

[HaydenTubbs]

with regards to proof 63 type coins of 1860 to 1915

 

where they are not choice to gem grades pf64 to 67

 

but better than proof 61 62 examples do you feel they have potential?

 

are value opportunity buys in this market??

 

will have increased demand as this market and new collectors mature?

 

are there some series in 1860 to 1915 proof coins that have better eye appeal in proof 63 grades?

 

 

michael

 

There will always be demand/potential/opportunity if the proofs are as "finger licking good" as your Seated proof set!

 

Ay Chihuahua!!!!

 

Most lower grade(60-63) "common" proofs (I'll talk seated half dimes) are undervalued when you compare their low mintages to their current price tags.I would only buy specimens with full luster,or rainbow toning

Take for example the 1873 H10C mintage of only 600.Quite a few survive today,but with under 600 available and the seated series gaining popularity they have quite a bit of room to move substantilly up in price.

 

As for higher grade pieces 64-+,espicially those with toning

 

 

what else is there to say?

[michael]

ttt

[Prethen]

I personally own a single Proof 63. It also happens to be in a gold PCI slab which doesn't help for a sight-unseen description. Someone had somehow wiped part of the reverse leaving a bunch of hairlines on the right-side (but showing strong mirrors underneath the toning). Otherwise, the coin has no problems and is a very, very scarce coin being an 1860 3CS proof. Probably less than 100 are around.

[Oldtrader3]

Just for the sake of illustration, attached is a Pr63 outside-affiliatelinksnotallowed Lib. dime. The coin is cameo with no major marks except a small luster break on the knee and a few hairlines that define the grade. You just have to be selective with Pr63 coins.

[nwcs]

Absolutely, I think pr63 eye appealing coins of that era are definitely good catches moving forward. I think I'd rather have flaws on them, though, than hairlines. I remember seeing several proof trade dollars (about 8) that were all very hairlined. Just couldn't enjoy them as much as I should.

[chinook]

Proof 63?

 

No I dont think so....unless proof 63 is the finest know for the date.

 

There are too many proofs of this era in grades much higher than 63. Just like in anything else you may buy, quality stands by itself and retains value/appreciates better than average or poor quality.

[Prethen]

I'd like to respectfully disagree with the above sentiment (quoted below). As in the case of my above example of the 1860 3CS PF63 (which appears more attractive in hand than that photo shows), it's a matter of quality AND price point. Yes, there are PF64 and PF65+ specimens around, but they will cost considerably more. So, for a single grade point, you might be fortunate and find a winner of a coin rather than spending hundreds (or sometimes thousands) of dollars more.

 

Now, yes, it is somewhat difficult finding a nice 63 coin, but it can be done. However, I do doubt the possibility of finding anything someone would really consider "nice" (unless it was an overly-conservative grade) for anything 60-62.

 

I would also strongly protest that a coin that doth have a few hairlines not an unattractive coin it maketh.... Let me rephrase that....just because a coin has some hairlines doesn't make it bad or unattractive. Hairlines very often are seen my tilting the coin just right in the light or with a little bit of power. If that's the case and you like the coin and the price is right...who the hell cares? In fact, if a PF63 coin is only in that grade because of an extra patch of hairlines that a PF64 doesn't have, than that coin is potentially a bargain due to the silliness of various grading considerations.

 

I'll keep my eyes peeled for nice looking PF63 coins whenever I'm at a show or it's in the stock of a dealer I trust. I will have to see the coin in hand before considering a purchase, therefore the auction houses, like eBay, are pretty much out of the running for selling me such a coin. Again, if I know the seller, I might feel differently even if it's on eBay.

 

Don't close your eyes to coins because of the grading system that the services abide by. Do you like it? Is it of good value to you? Then, it might not be a bad idea to own it.

 

 

Proof 63?

 

No I dont think so....unless proof 63 is the finest know for the date.

 

There are too many proofs of this era in grades much higher than 63. Just like in anything else you may buy, quality stands by itself and retains value/appreciates better than average or poor quality.

[michael]

great looking coins BCG and old trader3

 

for me the main key is eye appeal and it is hard but not impossible to find great eye appealling choice proof 63 examples

 

but when you find them and they are above average eye appeal with the eye appeal of a higher grade then you gots a really good coin with tremendous value

[rexcat]

Good question Michael, worth the bump.

 

I feel that a person can get nice pf63 coins from this era and that they are a very good value today. Many pf63s that I have come across are not really hair lined bad at all requiring just the right tilt and lighting to see, although it seems all have at least some fine lines, but still show a nice cameo contrast, they make fine examples for type sets, you just gota love the full strikes of proofs when your'e looking for design details.

 

Yeah, if I had the money, I like to fill my type set with pf65s, pf66s, but….

 

Regardless of grade, these are all fairly rare coins, due to total mintages of most types measured in thousands and tens of thousands (for all years minted), and many being circulated over the years. I surprised that they are still as cheap as they are; it wouldn’t take that much rise in people’s interest in these proofs to make the prices go up a lot. What if proof Morgans became as “hot” and “must have” as the 1995-W SAE? There is over twelve thousand fewer proof Morgans ever minted than the number of 1995-W SAEs, most of which are among us, and that’s a $4100 coin today. I can only wonder about how far these old proofs would go. Already Morgan proofs have gained at a pretty good clip over the last four years, going from a bid of $1270 to $1800 for a pf63.

 

I have seen from the time spent buying the proofs in my type set that over the last five years or so prices have had a slow but steady rise in the retail market, although most proof types haven’t gained much in the greysheet bid columns. As a collector buying, it has become harder to locate eye appealing coins and you’ll pay more for them when you do. Personally I am very glad that I got many of these proofs when I did a few years ago, I think people are catching on, something I both like and dislike. You know, what you have vs. what you still need.

 

Nice looking coins BCG and old trader3

 

Below is one of my favorite old proofs, NGC PF63 CAM:

 

 

[CTcollector]

I would have to concur with most of the opinions that were already expressed. The only thing I would add is that if this question was asked 5 years ago, I would be more inclined to say yes than no. But sadly that is not the case, a good deal of today's 63's lack eye appeal as well as technical merits that are consistent with "choice status". Thats not saying that great coins in the proof 63 grade don't pop up once a while. They do, but with less and less frequency every year. The only area that I see occasional relative value in proof 63 grades is in the lower pop seated coins (pre 1879).

[BankNote1]

You can do well with any coin when you pickup and undergraded piece!

[michael]

proof 63 cameo and definately undergraded and with the eye appeal of a higher grade

[Elcontador]

Michael, re Barber coinage, I'd give a definite thumbs down. While I think you're going to have an easier time finding an acceptable -- not nice -- PF 63 vs. a MS 63 coin in the Barber series, I haven't seen a 3 in either MS or PF that I'd want in my collection.

 

With the upgrading of attractive AU coins, you will find an occasional choice AU coin in an MS 63 holder. A PF Half (Seated and Barber) often has hairlines that look like someone ice-skated on it, or really ugly toning which makes the coin undesirable. While this is less so on the quarters and I haven't seen much of it on the dimes, these coins in PF 3 which I've seen are usually just plain nasty.

 

These days, a 3 is usually just an average uncirculated or proof coin. Do you want average coins in your collection? I see more MS than PF coins. I've seen some PF 5 Liberty Nickels (and Shield Nickels in PF 6) that were attractive, but nothing lower than that. I have some Barber coinage in PF 5 which IMO is acceptable to pleasant, but not outstanding.

 

Properly graded Seated $s are either rather baggy in MS 3 or have lots of hairlines and / or unattractive toning in PF 3. This IMO is also true to a lesser extent with Seated Halves and Quarters. The dimes in 3 have eyecatching problems.

 

A Morgan in 3 IMO is a nasty coin, PF or MS. I can't comment on the other series in PF 3, as I do not collect them

 

Unless you have a very scarce coin, I think you need to go higher than PF 63 to get an attractive, valuable coin in the 1860 - 1915 period. Lastly, the MS and PF coins I've seen in 61-62 usually required that I wear safety gloves to protect my hands from being bitten when I handled the coins, slabbed or not.

[michael]

 

 

there is always the pervebal needle in a haystack one in a million proof 63 out there that is high end or severly undergraded in the holder and with the eye appeal extra special qualities of a much higher grade

 

yes hard to find and in many decades i have only seen a couple of such coins

 

and i will not have to tell you where they are now

[EZ_E]

I personally own a single Proof 63. It also happens to be in a gold PCI slab which doesn't help for a sight-unseen description. Someone had somehow wiped part of the reverse leaving a bunch of hairlines on the right-side (but showing strong mirrors underneath the toning). Otherwise, the coin has no problems and is a very, very scarce coin being an 1860 3CS proof. Probably less than 100 are around.

 

Only 100? Cool! It's definitely a better date. I just got a PR 64 from Mark Feld. Gorgeous coin and did I mention that it is a better date?

[EZ_E]

1860 PCGS PR 64

 

This 3CS has beautiful concentric, golden toning around the peripheries of both the obverse and the reverse with sweet cobalt blue toning in the centers. The eye-appeal is incredible. It literally took but two seconds of viewing to determine that this is the right coin for me. If not, then it would have been returned promptly. If this was one point higher then it would more than quadrauple in value. This is a high-end 64 and was a very fortuitous purchase.

 

Some data:

 

1860 Proof Trime. [1000, net 538+] The silver proofs of this year were struck March 8th. Rather heavy date, bases of 18 a little lighter than remaining numerals. Survivors represent only a small minority of the original mintage. Some 538 sold (514 in sets as with other denominations), the rest melted. Positional varieties exist.

 

Among the most notable features of the new "Type III" design are the narrow letters spaced well apart, two thin, closely spaced, raised outlines to star, and some of the smallest numerals ever used for coin dates. (In 1860-63 we find the smallest dates of all, on this denomination and on the gold dollars; later dates are a little larger, probably to save strain on official eyes.)

 

Mintages were smaller than in "Type II", yet the coins of 1859-62 are far more often seen in all grades than those of 1854-58. This can be credited to a combination of better striking quality, better resistance to wear, and hoarding. On Dec. 28, 1861, East Coast banks (beginning with the largest ones in New York) suspended specie payments for the duration of the Civil War. This meant that they would no longer give any kind of coins in exchange for any paper currency, even for federal greenbacks. Beginning that same day, silver coins began vanishing from banks and stores into hoards, many of them in Central America. Greenbacks (the term then meant the new Demand Notes of 1861), being without backing in gold or silver, were spent in haste lest they depreciate in purchasing power, and the process intensified further after the Legal Tender notes began showing up in mid-1862. Simultaneously, less and less silver went to the mints for coinage, and what small quantities were struck (mostly from uncurrent or worn-out coins melted for the purpose) disappeared at once into hoards. Accordingly, later dates of trimes, 1863-73, are represented in collectors' hands almost entirely by proofs.

 

Vast quantities of counterfeits appeared during the war, dated 1859-62 inclusive; most are 1861's. Dates are always larger than on the genuine issue; letters are apt to be irregularly spaced and wider than the genuine. They are struck in some pale gray metal resembling German silver.

 

The Mint Act of Feb. 12, 1873 abolished the denomination. On the following July 10, the Philadelphia Mint held some 74,000 trimes in its stock of uncurrent silver issues, together with 2,258 old proof silver dollars and larger quantities of unsold proofs, mostly 1871-73 slilver coins without arrows. These were all melted (Boosel {1960}, p. 19). The 74,000 trimes repesent proofs of 1872-73, nearly the entire production run of 1863-72, and many of 1862 and earlier years. We need seek no further for reasons why these later dates have remained so elusive. As uncirculated business strikes of several denominations found their way into dozens of proof sets in the 1860's, possibly those are the main source for surviving uncirculated gem trimes of 1863-68.

 

Breen

[michael]

superb

[Morgannut]

In the 19th Century series I think you can find a lot of PR-63 or even PR-62 coins with monster eye appeal that are in the "sweet spot" of the pricing. The next grade up might be 4X as much, but if you find a coin with great toning with minor hairlines that aren't distracting (you have to work to see them) then these grades can be downright cheap. Some series are so thinnly traded and collected you are virtually the only bidder even though there are way less than 1000 examples ever made.

 

As for most 20th century stuff outside of PR gold and copper, I'd pass. There is just too many around to bother, unless they are just beautiful and very inexpensive.