Can the grading of Buffalo and Jefferson nickels be compared?

[Leothelion]

Hi everyone

Is there a double standard in grading the Buffalo nickels to the grading of Jefferson nickels? When I was in Pittsburgh, I couldn't help noticeing how the MS65 graded Buffalo nickels looked better, condition wise with less nicks or marks, wear, etc, than many of the MS66 or 67 graded Jefferson nickels! I know Hoot collects both coins, perhaps he could make a judgement call here on this. Anyone can go to the Bower's and Merena auction website and pull them pictures up and see what I'm talking about.

 

Leo

[Wihlborg]

Leo,

 

The grading of buff’s and Jeff’s cannot be compared. It seems that you can get away with a lot more or larger marks in prime focal areas on Jeff’s than you can with buff’s for a given grade. To be Honest, I don’t know why this is, but it certainly seems to be true IMO. I am interested to hear if Hoot agrees and if so, has a possible explanation as to why this would be so.

 

John

[spy88]

I also have wondered about the disparity between the two series. If logic prevailed, then the Buffs would/should be given the higher grades even with rub, nicks, etc. when compared with the Jeff series.

 

As Buffs only enjoyed a run of 25 years and with considerably less quantities minted, I cannot fathom the reasoning that must be there for the grade vs condition difference between the two series.

 

Hoot? Where are ya?

 

David

[jom]

I'm sure Hoot will chime in but my best GUESS is that, in general, the Buffalos are worth more in the market. So the lieniant grading of Jeffs (something I am NOT familiar with) may just be the services don't scrutinize them as much. I mean they probably get BULK submissions on those so maybe that has something to do with it.

 

Also, you might want to remember that the coins are TWO different series so you should expect the two designs to be graded differently. As long as grading is consistant WITHIN the series it really doesn't matter much, does it?

 

jom

[Hoot]

Great post Leo and answers right on the money.

 

The buffalo nickel series is graded primarily on the basis of strike and luster. Marks that are in focal areas tend to distract heavily in the series and bring the grades down quickly. Also, ANY bit of the slightest friction on the coins places them in the 64 and less categories in a BIG hurry. Chatter on the Indian's hair knot and on the mane of the bison will look like friction and bring the grades down fast. I have a couple of MS67 pieces that have marks that can be found if looked for, but they are few and far between and well concealed, generally speaking. There's simply a tradition of grading buffs that way, and placing an MS66 or better grade on many - especially key dates - is very tough.

 

Jefferson nickels, on the other hand, are given a fair bit more latitude. What I've noticed, however, is that FS Jeffs are graded about 1 point harder than non-FS Jeffs. This is wierd, but a greater latitude, perhaps a bit of indifference, enters the scene when non-FS Jeffs are being graded. That said, I also think that the grading services are only now having the volume of Jefferson nickels coming through to be able to make the right calls for grades.

 

And what I see is that Jefferson nickels are given greater latitude for marks than buffalo nickels, especially in prime focal areas, and ESPECIALLY on the jaw line of Jefferson. If a person makes a 1:1 comparison of the number of marks (even small chatter) allowed on the Indian's hair knot or upper cheek bone of a buffalo nickel, versus the jaw line of Jefferson on a Jeff nick, the former is graded more harshly. For instance, it is commonplace to find small chatter on the jaw line of Jefferson , even on MS67 nickels, whereas MS67 buffalo nickels have virtually no allowance for the same on the Indian's hair knot or upper cheek bone. On the reverse of Jefferson nickels, a fair bit of latitude is given for marks in the field above Monticello or on the steps. This is somewhat similar for marks on the bison's mane and prominent leg (the second front leg from the left). However, marks in the fields of the reverse of the buffalo nickel are not tolerated. (And actually, they're a bit rare without other damage.)

 

Anyhow, I think that the premise is correct. Jefferson nickels are graded somewhat more leniently than buffalo nickels. And it may have to do with monetary value, but it also has to do with tradition. There is a much longer history of people paying serious attention to buffalo nickels. Most graders have ample experience with them and know the series well enough to adequately and expertly market grade them according to the issue. The same is not true with Jefferson nickels - or at least it has not been true. I think the industry is rapidly catching up and the new standards are taking form. But I think that with Jeffs, there will always be a bit more lenience. I simply wish that the FS Jeffs and the non-FS Jeffs would grade the same. I think, personally, that the right standard is that of the non-FS Jeffs, which tend to be better evaluated for overall condition and strike. Lustre also plays an important - an emerging - role with Jefferson nickels. It'll be interesting to see where all this leads.

 

Hoot

[coinman1794]

This double standard happens throughout coin series. I don't really understand it though, because most would a agree, for instance, that a baggy Jefferson in MS65 is overgraded. Or, compare Franklin halves to Walking Liberty halves, where a 65 Franklin is about equal to a 63 Walker! Most peolple feel that the Franklin is overgraded, yet the services still grade by this skued standard.

[Leothelion]

Great posts and info everyone but the fact that the TGC's are not carefully screening out for the best FS Jeffersons and placeing them into their rightful holders just chaps my rear! And I had to drive all the way to Pittsburgh just to find this out! How many times have I sat at home watching 100's of certified FS nickels sold through ebay, teletrade, heritage and all of the other big name auction houses for outrageous money. Not until I went and saw it for myself and my hopes were UP to see a very nice, accurately graded 72 piece collection! Most of the best coins in that collection were of the more common type dated stuff. There were 6-7 coins in that collection that I wouldn't even have called full step nickels! I'm not slamming the owner of these coins, he didn't make the final call that placed them into the slabs!

I posted over yonder concerning someone's purchases and that didn't go very well, to say the least. Those people over there don't want to know if they're buying [!@#%^&^]!

I've tried my best to inform them and anyone here and abroad but it's a waste of time! Did any of you NGC breeded collectors get in on the bidding there at Pittsburgh for the FS nickels?

 

Leo

[TomB]

Excellent posts, everyone. I especially liked Hoot's in-depth analysis but specifically waited until I had a free evening before attempting to read it.

 

The inverse of this is true for Mercury dimes vis a vis Roosevelt dimes. In this instance, I believe the TPGs, especially PCGS, decided that an MS68 grade would be nearly unattainable and so, no matter how nice the coin, it is almost defined as being capped at MS67. This is not the case with Mercury dimes and might be because of their longer market history.