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Pedigree coins. What's your opinion?

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What is your opinion on coins with pedigree, i.e. the Binion collection, Omaha Bank Hoard, McClaren collection, etc. Do you think these coins will be more valuable in time? Or do you think pedigree is a premium not worth paying for?

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Coins with a pedigree from a famous collector such as Eliasberg, Pittman, or Garrett is worth a premium to me. Coins with pedigrees from a famous hoard such as Redfield or Binion are not worth as much of a premium to me.

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I don't like to pay for any pedigrees; I buy the coin. If it has a pedigree that's great, and I make sure that it is noted in my collection; but I won't pay much of anything extra for them.

 

I have a higher opinion of pieces that have been plate coins in major reference works. That usually means that they are either very nice or among the finest known examples of their kind. That means more to me than an old envelope that says the coin was in famous collection.

 

As for the not so famous collections that notations on the slabs, I don't have any respect for those at all. Some of these collectors did nothing buy slabs with high grading numbers on them for a registry set. The quality of the coin was secondary. I understand that you can get these notations on the holders by request. That reminds me of the "Vanity Press" thing in the publishing world.

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What is your opinion on coins with pedigree, i.e. the Binion collection, Omaha Bank Hoard, McClaren collection, etc. Do you think these coins will be more valuable in time? Or do you think pedigree is a premium not worth paying for?

"Pedigree" is often a confusing subject, so I'll try to cut through the fog by giving you my own perspective. It doesn't mean I am "right", but may illustrate a way for you to start to clarify what it all means TO YOU.

 

Few and far between is the pedigree that is important all by itself. Generally, they stem from the greatest collections, and you can count the most meaningful ones literally on two hands, because there haven't been that many truly "great" ones: Eliasberg, Norweb, Bass, Pittman, Ford, Garrett, and basically in its own category, GSA. (I may have missed some). For any of these, the pedigree all by itself is enough to elevate the coin's appeal. There is usually a well-known auction catalog(s) associated with the sale of these collections, and the photo plates of such coins helps to verify their pedigree.

 

Then you have a pretty nice selection of second tier pedigrees, which I can't name offhand but include Newman, Reiver, Clapp, Bolender, Chapman, Newcomb, Picker, Taylor, Logan, etc. Often, these are pedigrees that refer to either pioneers of the hobby or great researchers. They aren't necessarily "lesser" pedigrees, but just tend to be more specialized with a less general appeal. Sometimes, as above, whole auction(s) were dedicated to sale of coins from these famous collections, and again, the image plating of the coins enhances their appeal.

 

Finally, third-tier are more like what you are talking about. Modern day so-called pedigrees are all-too-often just so much noise. I won't name any specifically because my goal isn't to offend, but things like the "Bill Smith", or "Purple River", or "Billy Bob's All Time Finest Known Registry Set Of Sacagawea Die Varieites", "Ozarks Bank Hoard", etc. are nice as "flavor of the month" and may help a modern auction hype up interest in the current fad, but for me, I couldn't care less about them.

 

Hope this helps.

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Coins with a pedigree from a famous collector such as Eliasberg, Pittman, or Garrett is worth a premium to me. Coins with pedigrees from a famous hoard such as Redfield or Binion are not worth as much of a premium to me.

 

This. For the pedigrees mentioned in the original post, I do not care about them or at least I wouldn't pay any premium for them. I may pay a very small premium for the other pedigrees, however.

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The pedigree is important if you plan to store these coins next to each other for breeding purposes. Thus, if you place a Norweb and an Eliabsurg gold coin in the same box, you might return one day to find a Bass gold pattern there - kind of a hybrid coin.

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To the ANA, they enhance the market grade.

 

hm I don't think I agree with your statement and you are being too general. That doesn't mean that there are some hoard coins that are not overgraded; however, this could just as easily be due to the same pool of graders grading in the same small period of time. To "prove" or suggest statistically that there was a bonus given to pedigreed coins over their normal coins, I would want to see what the other coins that the TPGs slabbed at those grades looked for the same time interval and with the same graders/finalizers.

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The pedigree is important if you plan to store these coins next to each other for breeding purposes. Thus, if you place a Norweb and an Eliabsurg gold coin in the same box, you might return one day to find a Bass gold pattern there - kind of a hybrid coin.

That's all this broken-down hobby needs, a stud farm for coins.

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The pedigree is important if you plan to store these coins next to each other for breeding purposes. Thus, if you place a Norweb and an Eliabsurg gold coin in the same box, you might return one day to find a Bass gold pattern there - kind of a hybrid coin.

Bass? Surely you would end up with a Norbert, or an Eliasweb. But I seriously doubt that a "Bass" would spontaneously evolve from a crossing of Norweb and Eliasberg.

 

Don't even get me started on what happens if you cross Jackson with Bass....

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The pedigree is important if you plan to store these coins next to each other for breeding purposes. Thus, if you place a Norweb and an Eliabsurg gold coin in the same box, you might return one day to find a Bass gold pattern there - kind of a hybrid coin.

 

:o

 

hm

 

What if you put an Eliasberg gold with a Pittman copper?

 

Do you get a Mehl nickel...?

 

;)

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Maybe....It's a lot like those magical slabs that turn an EF 1804 dollar into a MS-64.

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The pedigree is important if you plan to store these coins next to each other for breeding purposes. Thus, if you place a Norweb and an Eliabsurg gold coin in the same box, you might return one day to find a Bass gold pattern there - kind of a hybrid coin.

 

That's funny. Coin collectors say pedigree when they should be saying provenance.

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To the ANA, they enhance the market grade.

 

hm I don't think I agree with your statement and you are being too general. That doesn't mean that there are some hoard coins that are not overgraded; however, this could just as easily be due to the same pool of graders grading in the same small period of time. To "prove" or suggest statistically that there was a bonus given to pedigreed coins over their normal coins, I would want to see what the other coins that the TPGs slabbed at those grades looked for the same time interval and with the same graders/finalizers.

 

If I interpret this comment correctly, I imagine this ANA opinion is a reference to the perception that some great numismatic rarities were overgraded due to their extreme rarity and fabled provenance; not a statement that hoard coins tend to be optimistically graded. I could be wrong.

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What is your opinion on coins with pedigree, i.e. the Binion collection, Omaha Bank Hoard, McClaren collection, etc. Do you think these coins will be more valuable in time? Or do you think pedigree is a premium not worth paying for?

 

it is always about the coin------ but pedigrees do sometimes add value SOMETIMES

 

and for example COLONIAL coins a pedigree from F.C.C. boyd earle norweb picker roper JJ ford ...................... yes pedigrees are important greatly much so

 

 

for binion, omaha bank hoard, and especially so mcclaren pedigrees on common yet popular coins it think in my opinion it has a negative affect and it actually hurts the value of the coin :o

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Pedigrees are interesting and I might pay a little extra for one but not a lot and I, certainly, would have to really LIKE the coin in any case. I have seen the Eliasberg 1919-S MS 65 and I hated it----I thought it was over graded with a POOR strike and POOR surfaces. I also passed on the Eliasberg 1919-P coin in MS 64, as it was darker, with toning that was not particularly attractive. It also had a decent amount of marks in the field. The strike was FANTASTIC, though. But overall, I didn't care for the coin and others must not have, either, as it sold for below the current average market price. It would have been cool to say that I owned it, though. :cool:

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Maybe....It's a lot like those magical slabs that turn an EF 1804 dollar into a MS-64.

 

Sorry, Roger, that sounds like a significant exaggeration to me, even considering gradeflation.

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Coins with a pedigree from a famous collector such as Eliasberg, Pittman, or Garrett is worth a premium to me. Coins with pedigrees from a famous hoard such as Redfield or Binion are not worth as much of a premium to me.

 

+1

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Maybe....It's a lot like those magical slabs that turn an EF 1804 dollar into a MS-64.

Sorry, Roger, that sounds like a significant exaggeration to me, even considering gradeflation.

If memory serves correct, Roger didn't exaggerate much at all. I think it was the Mickley/Hawn specimen 1804 dollar that originally was graded PF-45, later became PF-50, got conserved, and was then certified PF-62. Didn't it sell for about $4M?

 

What is your opinion on coins with pedigree, i.e. the Binion collection, Omaha Bank Hoard, McClaren collection, etc. Do you think these coins will be more valuable in time? Or do you think pedigree is a premium not worth paying for?

 

it is always about the coin------ but pedigrees do sometimes add value SOMETIMES

 

and for example COLONIAL coins a pedigree from F.C.C. boyd earle norweb picker ...................... yes pedigrees are important greatly much so

 

 

for binion, omaha bank hoard, and especially so mcclaren pedigrees on common yet popular coins it think in my opinion it has a negative affect and it actually hurts the value of the coin :o

Michael provided a very valuable insight there worth repeating: sometimes certain "pedigrees" may actually hurt a coin's perceived value!

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Maybe....It's a lot like those magical slabs that turn an EF 1804 dollar into a MS-64.

 

Sorry, Roger, that sounds like a significant exaggeration to me, even considering gradeflation.

 

We see the "providence" thing cropping up in the world of the EAC condition census. Some of the finest known examples of some Sheldon variety large cents were assigned grades years ago. Upon more recent examination of these coins, some have been found to be over graded, yet they continue to be part of the census in their previous positions because the powers at be often will not lower them. Sometimes this has something to do with "the old boys' (insider) network, and protection of one's property. At the same time challengers appear that are equal or better than the previous champions. Often the situation gets sorted out, but it takes time and the word of a recognized authority in the field to fix it.

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Then there is the Dexter specimen, which hen I first saw it was raw and I considered it to be an ugly gray badly hairlined XF-45 to AU-50 coin, which has subsequently been slabbed PF-62, 63, and is I believe currently graded PF-64, even though it still has that letter D counterstamped on the back.

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Actually, current grade is 65 at NGC. And only a crazy person would ever have graded it less than 63. 45? Delusional.

 

IMO of course. But I have held it in hand.

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Methinks people are getting their 1804 dollars a bit mixed up. It was the Adams- Carter specimen that initially graded 45 and inflated over the years to 58. The Dexter coin was graded 63 way back in the early 90's - it has NEVER been called a circ. Mickley was called a 50 in Bowers' book - I am uncertain why NGC chose to go all the way to 62.

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Then there is the Dexter specimen, which hen I first saw it was raw and I considered it to be an ugly gray badly hairlined XF-45 to AU-50 coin, which has subsequently been slabbed PF-62, 63, and is I believe currently graded PF-64, even though it still has that letter D counterstamped on the back.

 

That D counterstamp is microscopic---about the size of a small bag mark.

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So, was it the "Dexter" specimen, the "Delusional" specimen, or was the whole thing "Sinister" ?

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Actually, current grade is 65 at NGC. And only a crazy person would ever have graded it less than 63. 45? Delusional.

 

IMO of course. But I have held it in hand.

 

Methinks people are getting their 1804 dollars a bit mixed up. It was the Adams- Carter specimen that initially graded 45 and inflated over the years to 58. The Dexter coin was graded 63 way back in the early 90's - it has NEVER been called a circ. Mickley was called a 50 in Bowers' book - I am uncertain why NGC chose to go all the way to 62.

Well, I am now convinced that gradeflation has never happened :) .

 

Incidentally, I don't think we got the Mickley coin confused with Adams-Carter at all. The Mickley specimen was indeed graded EF-AU "poorly cleaned" by Walter Breen, and eventually ended up in an NGC PF-62 holder. But the Adams-Carter coin did, of course, experience an increase in grade, albeit less dramatic than the Mickley coin.

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Methinks people are getting their 1804 dollars a bit mixed up. It was the Adams- Carter specimen that initially graded 45 and inflated over the years to 58. The Dexter coin was graded 63 way back in the early 90's - it has NEVER been called a circ. Mickley was called a 50 in Bowers' book - I am uncertain why NGC chose to go all the way to 62.

 

Thanks Bruce - I was thinking that the one-time XF45 coin eventually ended up in an AU 58, rather than MS64 holder, but was not certain. Hence my comment about the exaggeration.

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