Flipping eBay Flippers

[mtnstyne]

Aside from eBay where else can you buy and sell raw coins online? Not everyone subscribes to the TPGs versions of collecting.

 

Also, there is a little button on the side you can select to ignore the buy it now auctions. My general rule is look at the auctions that are ending soonest and the "buy it nows" listed most recently. It is what it is and to ignore the sales on eBay when researching market value is simply ignoring one valuable piece of data.

 

For the OP, are flippers on eBay any different than if you walk into a B&M and sell a coin and then next week see it in his case for twice what you sold it to him?

[James_OldeTowne]

What difference is there really if you start a 1000$ item at 99 cents or 0?

A huge difference. If you start at $1000 and it does not sell, you still have NO idea what it is worth.

 

If you start at 99 cents and it sells for $300, you now know it is worth $300.

 

That is exactly why I suggested to the OP not to use "eBay prices" as an indicator of market trends. A plethora of non-sales tells you nothing about the market.

 

They dont call themselves specifically an auction house because they are in fact a marketplace in that they offer many other formats. Think of it this way. The listings that are auctions, are no different than your regular auction house except there is one lot per auction.

But, eBay USED to call themselves an "auction" venue. That all changed at some point when they changed their business model, and is the reason why they no longer refer to themselves as an "auction". And that's my point - eBay clearly differentiates itself from being an auction venue today, whereas it used to be (say 5 years ago).

 

Your stance reminds me a lot of an online poker analogy. Is online poker still poker in your opinion? You cant see people, you can play many games rather than just one et cetera...there are many similarities in that comparison but at the end of the day you get 2 cards, you bet money an you win or lose.

On ebay you see any item. You decide whether you want it and at what price, and if no one else wants it at a higher price you win it. Thats an auction in my book.

I know nothing about poker or online poker, so I can't really answer that.

 

Ultimately though, all this strays way too far from the OPs key question. He stated that "prices have been going up sharply" and referenced eBay as an indicator of that. Because I personally can consistently purchase coins at less (often substantially less) than eBay levels, then this likely means eBay is a poor indicator of current market values (i.e. eBay implies too high of a value).

[Hard Times]

The eBay model is corrupt (not that sellers and buyers are corrupt - just eBay itself).

Can you elaborate as to why the eBay model is any more corrupt than any other auction?

Your question doesn't logically follow my statement, because eBay is not an auction. I only meant that the eBay business model -- whatever it is -- tells us much less about the state of the market than a true auction (model). They are different models.

 

I never, ever go to eBay to get a sense of market value for something, but do look at past auction results from Heritage, Stacks, Goldberg and our own, just to name a few.

 

Oh that is just James being James, for years he has made it clear on these boards that he is against ebay and dislikes PayPal more than beets. He never gives us evidence as to the why ebay and PP are worse than the alternatives. Please provide evidence and please be aware that many on these boards including Krypto, Broadie, me, to name just a few, have successfully worked with ebay and PP and believe it is a sound place to buy and sell. Show us the better alternatives and don't just say 'Scotsman, we are perfect', yet again. Honestly, I think it is bad for Scotsman's buisness model for you to be bashing competition here on these boards. Seems like a huge conflict of interest. I don't see Heritage or Goldberg or Stacks employees doing this - I can't imagine why.........

EBay is not Scotsman's competition. You didn't post anything sensible for me to respond to, and I have no idea why you are attacking me on the boards.... yet again.

 

 

Ebay does auctions on coins, Scotsman does auctions on coins and perusing both auction sites frequently, I can see much overlap in what is being auctioned. Thus ebay is without doubt competition for your company. Not attacking just pointing out your conflict of interest when you proclaim the competitions buisness model to be corrupt. JMHO

 

Best, HT

[mumu]

What difference is there really if you start a 1000$ item at 99 cents or 0?

A huge difference. If you start at $1000 and it does not sell, you still have NO idea what it is worth.

 

If you start at 99 cents and it sells for $300, you now know it is worth $300.

 

That is exactly why I suggested to the OP not to use "eBay prices" as an indicator of market trends. A plethora of non-sales tells you nothing about the market.

 

They dont call themselves specifically an auction house because they are in fact a marketplace in that they offer many other formats. Think of it this way. The listings that are auctions, are no different than your regular auction house except there is one lot per auction.

But, eBay USED to call themselves an "auction" venue. That all changed at some point when they changed their business model, and is the reason why they no longer refer to themselves as an "auction". And that's my point - eBay clearly differentiates itself from being an auction venue today, whereas it used to be (say 5 years ago).

 

Your stance reminds me a lot of an online poker analogy. Is online poker still poker in your opinion? You cant see people, you can play many games rather than just one et cetera...there are many similarities in that comparison but at the end of the day you get 2 cards, you bet money an you win or lose.

On ebay you see any item. You decide whether you want it and at what price, and if no one else wants it at a higher price you win it. Thats an auction in my book.

I know nothing about poker or online poker, so I can't really answer that.

 

Ultimately though, all this strays way too far from the OPs key question. He stated that "prices have been going up sharply" and referenced eBay as an indicator of that. Because I personally can consistently purchase coins at less (often substantially less) than eBay levels, then this likely means eBay is a poor indicator of current market values (i.e. eBay implies too high of a value).

 

What you are describing in the matter of ebay prices being different than what you can get is no different than an auction house in Podunk Kentucky realizing different prices than say in Manhattan NYC. Its just a matter of audience.

[James_OldeTowne]

Ebay does auctions on coins, Scotsman does auctions on coins and perusing both auction sites frequently, I can see much overlap in what is being auctioned. Thus ebay is without doubt competition for your company. Not attacking just pointing out your conflict of interest when you proclaim the competitions buisness model to be corrupt. JMHO

Seriously, do have any idea whatsoever what the phrase "conflict of interest" means? Please consider learning the meaning of a phrase before you decide to (mis)use it. I can't even tell if you're trying to make a point because your post makes no sense.

 

"It's like saying: Pizza Hut serves pizza to customers, Scotsman serves pizza to customers. I can see much overlap in what is being served. Thus Pizza Hut is without doubt competition for your company."

 

You must not be capable, or simply do not want to, acknowledge the substantial differences between the "eBay" model, and an "auction house" model, so there's no point in wasting any time explaining it (yet again) in this, my final post.

 

Maybe somebody else can ?

[brg5658]

I would be interested in hearing how ebay is not an auction. I feel that within the advancement of technology it is layered a little different but the underlying result is that of an auction. Logistics are different of course but thats like saying Amazon isnt a store like Woolworth's was.

EBay is not a TRUE auction. But some aspects of eBay may have characteristics of an auction.

 

I'll put it this way. Here are some aspects of a true auction that I think do not apply equitably to eBay (note I am speaking only of coins, as I've never visited any other part of eBay):

 

1. "true auction"

In a free market, a "true auction" means the opening bid is zero, and there is no reserve. Thus, the offered item WILL SELL no matter what, to whomever is the highest bidder. That most accurately reflects the TRUE market, as it shows the most somebody is willing to pay for something.

 

James, by your definition, most of the "high profile" big sales of the year by Heritage, Stacks, Legend, etc. are not then "true auctions". Almost all items in the main show auctions have reserves. The "sell-through" rates are usually high, but again by your definition, these are not "true auctions.

 

Also, not to beat a dead horse, but I still don't understand what you think is "corrupt" about the eBay business model. I have sold many coins on eBay, and even a couple coins at the > $2000 mark, and I simply think of the eBay fees plus the (forced payment via) PayPal fees as going hand-in-hand. Those two fees added together are still far less than a Buyer's Premium from any of the "auction houses". I think that transparency of sale price favors eBay, as the fees are included in the price a buyer sees (BIN) and the price a buyer bids (auctions). Most auction houses also display (in a small font below the bid) what the true price will be, so I'm not accusing them of anything fishy. I just don't get how eBay's business model is deemed "corrupt". Fees, payment requirements, etc. are all specified clearly for sellers and buyers up front.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

James, by your definition, most of the "high profile" big sales of the year by Heritage, Stacks, Legend, etc. are not then "true auctions". Almost all items in the main show auctions have reserves. The "sell-through" rates are usually high, but again by your definition, these are not "true auctions.

That is correct. They are NOT "true" auctions (nor is Scotsman) when there are reserves or high starting bids in place. But they do come close. And it is possible to bid in a true auction. I have been to any number of estate sales locally where every single item started at zero and sold with no reserve. Those ARE "true auctions".

 

Think of it this way. The "free market" model is not allowed to function "freely" if it is stifled by reserves or excessive starting prices.

 

The more items there are that in fact do not sell, the further that business model is away from a "true auction", and that includes any number of auction houses. I still say that in comparison to eBay though, the sell-through rate is much higher for auction houses because their business model is "less corrupt".

 

Also, not to beat a dead horse, but I still don't understand what you think is "corrupt" about the eBay business model.

Mainly the Paypal requirement, which I know some will say is not really a "requirement", but c'mon. Have I EVER seen a thread here or ATS touting the virtues of Paypal? NEVER! I honestly don't believe I have seen a single one. Yet scan any number of thread titles implying corruption -- yes, I use the word "corruption" specifically here -- of that system. We are straying far from the OP and sidetracking the thread, so maybe a new thread would be appropriate.

 

I did not plan to post again to this thread, but your question and two additional PMs prompted me.

 

I have sold many coins on eBay, and even a couple coins at the > $2000 mark, and I simply think of the eBay fees plus the (forced payment via) PayPal fees as going hand-in-hand. Those two fees added together are still far less than a Buyer's Premium from any of the "auction houses".

This premium is not relevant to the comparison of the business model. All that matters is the final gross amount the participants were willing to bid.

 

I just don't get how eBay's business model is deemed "corrupt". Fees, payment requirements, etc. are all specified clearly for sellers and buyers up front.

Here again, that isn't relevant to the OP and my comment. The OP referenced eBay as a legitimate measure of market prices. My contention is that by comparison to a "true auction", the eBay model is corrupt and is a very poor indicator of true market.

 

When we set up coins for both retail and for auction, I have never, ever not even once found past eBay sales patterns as useful for reference. But Heritage, Stacks, Goldberg, etc. are very useful.

 

And finally, note that all the above is only my personal experience, just in cataloging coins. For all I know, eBay could be a perfect market indicator for boats, planes and automobiles. Or beanie babies. Or Tupperware. I just don't know. But I to believe it is virtually useless for pricing coins.

[Zoins]

I've purchased from flippers at substantial premiums. I certainly don't prefer it but sometimes I miss seeing the item the first time around. In those instances, the side of me that prefers instant satisfaction can appreciate flippers because if the coin went to a collector and it was a rare piece, I may not see it available again for a very long time.

 

That being said, while I am often the underbidder, I don't recall having lost to a flipper. Usually the items I bid on don't come around again for a while so sometimes I wish the winner was a flipper!

[bochiman]

Also, not to beat a dead horse, but I still don't understand what you think is "corrupt" about the eBay business model.

Mainly the Paypal requirement, which I know some will say is not really a "requirement", but c'mon. Have I EVER seen a thread here or ATS touting the virtues of Paypal? NEVER! I honestly don't believe I have seen a single one. Yet scan any number of thread titles implying corruption -- yes, I use the word "corruption" specifically here -- of that system.

 

Such melodramatic wording....."EVER", "NEVER!", "corruption", etc.

 

Well, you missed some then. I do remember more than a few that touted the virtues of paypal. Ease of use, seller/buyer protection for following their rules, etc. Some folks have even posted that paypal stood up for them and paid them when the seller/buyer (other end of the transaction) screwed the pooch.

 

So, while I may have problems with it myself, at times, I realize that it isn't 100% evil, nor is ebay, and I don't try to sound all cool by denouncing it every step of the way.

 

As for the original intent of the thread.....well, it is what it is. If they buy and flip, then they buy and flip. I tend to ignore them after awhile. The only flippers I have any moral issue with are those that take excessive amounts of limited mint issues and immediately flip them for a quick kill.....driving up prices on those that wanted them original issues for their actual collections and also driving down the prices realized for the much smaller flippers who try to sell a couple to essentially pay for the one they willl keep.

 

 

[Eric Hazen]

Here is another example of some crazy flipper!

 

1853 Large Cent $390.55

 

Now the buyer wants $1500

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=111028849834

[coinman_23885]

At least they use their own images. So many of them will just use Shane's images as they are. For whatever it's worth, I think the coin sold for its true value. Just because someone asks 4x-5x the price it sold for elsewhere does not mean that they are going to get it. I wouldn't be bothered by it at all.

 

Edited to add: My observations are usually that the coins Shane sells sell for retail, and with the toners, sometimes they go for even more than I would expect. I don't see a huge profit for the buyer/new seller of this coin.

[kryptonitecomics]

They are my images...just cropped and juiced a bit....

[comicdonna]

[coinman_23885]

They are my images...just cropped and juiced a bit....

 

As you can tell, coin photography and interpreting images aren't my strong suit per se.

[kryptonitecomics]

They are my images...just cropped and juiced a bit....

 

As you can tell, coin photography and interpreting images aren't my strong suit per se.

 

 

I still love ya

[Eric Hazen]

Um, should I not use your photos on the Kennedy I'm trying to sell? I'm just trying to get my money back out of it and I think my photos would cause a net loss ;-)

[coinman_23885]

They are my images...just cropped and juiced a bit....

 

As you can tell, coin photography and interpreting images aren't my strong suit per se.

 

 

I still love ya

 

 

The funny thing is that I don't think a lot of the flippers that purchase from you realize that you still own the intellectual property rights to those photographs and can demand that they be removed if you really wanted to do so. I find it funny whenever I see one of your coins for resale. I can instantly tell who photographed the coin without even having seen the original auction on your eBay history. This provides an immediate pricing history for this coin. Knowing that your sales typically do quite well, they are a bit naive to think that most people are going to pay 4x-5x of the purchase price from you.

[Crohnos01]

I can't believe anyone would really pay the BIN price on this... right? Surly anyone willing to plop $1500 down on a coin would have done at least a modicum of research before doing so

[coinman_23885]

I can't believe anyone would really pay the BIN price on this... right? Surly anyone willing to plop $1500 down on a coin would have done at least a modicum of research before doing so

 

One would hope, but it wouldn't be the craziest thing I have heard of on eBay. It only takes one to bite.