AU-58 coins

[JIM F.]

I know this is a very general question -- but in general do AU-58 coins have a reasonable chance of upgrading to MS-6x upon re-submission? I am referring to non-modern coins.

 

Thank You.

[coinman_23885]

Your question omits vital information. It depends on the individual coin. If there is a small rub in the field that is obscured by toning or otherwise undetected during resubmission (and this is the sole reason for the AU58 grade), I would say that there is a reasonable chance that an upgrade could occur.

[MarkFeld]

Your question omits vital information. It depends on the individual coin. If there is a small rub in the field that is obscured by toning or otherwise undetected during resubmission (and this is the sole reason for the AU58 grade), I would say that there is a reasonable chance that an upgrade could occur.

 

I don't think it omits vital information, because he asked "in general". So, the simple and easy answer to the question, as phrased, is no. Just as it would be if any other two grades were asked about. And, of course, it's AU58, not MS58.

[coinman_23885]

Your question omits vital information. It depends on the individual coin. If there is a small rub in the field that is obscured by toning or otherwise undetected during resubmission (and this is the sole reason for the AU58 grade), I would say that there is a reasonable chance that an upgrade could occur.

 

I don't think it omits vital information, because he asked "in general". So, the simple and easy answer to the question, as phrased, is no. Just as it would be if any other two grades were asked about. And, of course, it's AU58, not MS58.

 

I was assuming that there was a real scenario underlying his question (e.g. could this group of coins upgrade on resubmission?). I have seen the original poster do this several items in the past, thus I was inferring that this was not a hypothetical. You are right, however, that I was being too presumptuous, and should have worded my response differently. I still think the answer is dependent upon the merits of the individual coin. Those with a slight rub that is more likely to be overlooked or obscured by future toning, etc., would be more likely to upgrade in the future (potentially) than coins with noticeable wear on the high points. This is not to say that the odds are good, but that the odds are higher and perhaps, in some limited instances, "reasonable."

[comicdonna]

I am glad Mark made the AU58 correction. For a minute, I thought everything I learned was wrong.

[JIM F.]

Your question omits vital information. It depends on the individual coin. If there is a small rub in the field that is obscured by toning or otherwise undetected during resubmission (and this is the sole reason for the AU58 grade), I would say that there is a reasonable chance that an upgrade could occur.

 

I don't think it omits vital information, because he asked "in general". So, the simple and easy answer to the question, as phrased, is no. Just as it would be if any other two grades were asked about. And, of course, it's AU58, not MS58.

 

I was assuming that there was a real scenario underlying his question (e.g. could this group of coins upgrade on resubmission?). I have seen the original poster do this several items in the past, thus I was inferring that this was not a hypothetical. You are right, however, that I was being too presumptuous, and should have worded my response differently. I still think the answer is dependent upon the merits of the individual coin. Those with a slight rub that is more likely to be overlooked or obscured by future toning, etc., would be more likely to upgrade in the future (potentially) than coins with noticeable wear on the high points. This is not to say that the odds are good, but that the odds are higher and perhaps, in some limited instances, "reasonable."

 

Actually I do have a coin in mind, in this case a PCGS $5 Indian in an older green holder (not rattler). I can't take decent images or I would post. And yes, I know I meant to say AU-58.

 

 

[gmarguli]

And, of course, it's AU58, not MS58.

 

While not commonly used this way, I'm not sure anything is wrong with saying MS58. It's uncommon, so it appears odd, but is it wrong.

 

MS is used for business strike coins. PR/PF for proof. SP for Specimen. PL for Prooflike. If we can have a PR/PF58, SP58, or PL58, why not an MS58?

 

Just playing devils advocate...

[RWB]

"MS" = mint state = uncirculated = "60" or higher

"AU" = about uncirculated = trace of wear = "58"

 

More of an Orwellian advocate than of a devil....

 

The "grade" on a slab is an opinion - some of which are more reliable than others.

 

[zboyle04]

i have a $10 indian graded by PCGS as AU58+, yes it "earned" a plus. i am almost certain that if and when i send to NGC it will be at least MS62 probably 63. i have no idea why they gave it 58+ it is really nice. I feel the 58+ is a huge slap in the face and one of the reasons i discontinued my PCGS membership

[coinman_23885]

i have a $10 indian graded by PCGS as AU58+, yes it "earned" a plus. i am almost certain that if and when i send to NGC it will be at least MS62 probably 63. i have no idea why they gave it 58+ it is really nice. I feel the 58+ is a huge slap in the face and one of the reasons i discontinued my PCGS membership

 

I would not let a disagreement with the grading services over a single grade be a reason for parting with the service; I am also not sure why you are convinced that NGC will be more liberal on it. My experience is that both are fairly tight right now, and this has resulted in large part because of CAC. Usually when collectors think that AU58 coins should be MS coins, they are not paying attention to the luster in the field. A slight rub in the field interrupting luster is enough to bring the grade down to AU58. "Wear" and other signs of circulation do not always occur on the high points.

[MarkFeld]

And, of course, it's AU58, not MS58.

 

While not commonly used this way, I'm not sure anything is wrong with saying MS58. It's uncommon, so it appears odd, but is it wrong.

 

MS is used for business strike coins. PR/PF for proof. SP for Specimen. PL for Prooflike. If we can have a PR/PF58, SP58, or PL58, why not an MS58?

 

Just playing devils advocate...

 

Fair points, Greg. However...

 

An uncirculated coin which acquires wear is no longer uncirculated, and thus, no longer "MS".

 

On the other hand, a Proof coin which acquires wear is still a Proof coin, and thus, still "PF" or "PR".

 

And a Prooflike coin can still be Prooflike, even if no longer uncirculated. Ditto for a "Specimen" coin still being a "Specimen" even at grades below 60, though it might be very difficult to recognize it as such.

[coinman1794]

I know this is a very general question -- but in general do AU-58 coins have a reasonable chance of upgrading to MS-6x upon re-submission? I am referring to non-modern coins.

 

Thank You.

 

Most have no chance.

 

The ones that do are typically coins with high point friction but no disturbance in the open fields. These coins are more likely to be seen by the graders as MS coins with Cabinet Friction (at least eventually) than are coins that have wear in the fields. This is particularly true of larger coins, whose open fields actually wore as fast or faster than the design elements.

[jimjum12]

Would one be foolish to pay MS60 prices for an AU58 coin ? If not, then resubmission may just be a classic spinning of the wheels.....GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. With comics, a nice example of a scarce issue must often be obtained at an aggressive price.....and over time it becomes a smart buy.......

[coinman_23885]

Would one be foolish to pay MS60 prices for an AU58 coin ?

 

Not necessarily, especially if the AU58 has superior eye appeal and is a slider.

[newprepper]

Would one be foolish to pay MS60 prices for an AU58 coin ?

 

a slider.

 

mmmmm......white castle

[Raisethis2]

I always understood AU 58 to mean there is some evidence of "rub". If this coin exhibits rub then it should not upgrade. If the coin shows excessive contact where luster has been broken from contact with other coins only, then you may have a shot.

 

 

[Lablover]

Would one be foolish to pay MS60 prices for an AU58 coin ?

 

Not when they look like the one below...just my opinion.

 

NGC AU58

 

 

[jimjum12]

Would one be foolish to pay MS60 prices for an AU58 coin ?

 

a slider.

 

mmmmm......white castle

 

......My ex-wife said a great date MUST include White Castle and Mickey's Big-Mouth beer... GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. I really don't know what went wrong there.....we get along great as long as she's on the west coast and I'm on the East coast

[MarkFeld]

Would one be foolish to pay MS60 prices for an AU58 coin ?

 

Not when they look like the one below...just my opinion.

 

NGC AU58

 

 

 

That's a gorgeous coin. However, the price spread between an AU58 and an MS60 or MS61, 62, 63.... common date Peace Dollar is quite small. In some cases/other types and grades, such a price spread can be considerably larger.

 

Still, many attractive AU58 coins sell for in excess of MS60 bid levels, and I think, justifiably so.

[coinman_23885]

Would one be foolish to pay MS60 prices for an AU58 coin ?

 

Not when they look like the one below...just my opinion.

 

NGC AU58

 

 

Gorgeous Peace Dollar!

[jom]

Actually I do have a coin in mind, in this case a PCGS $5 Indian in an older green holder (not rattler). I can't take decent images or I would post. And yes, I know I meant to say AU-58.

 

If it's a $5 Indian I doubt an upgrade will happen unless the coin has been in collectors hands for a good number of years. The Indian Half Eagle is a VERY difficult coin to grade and the TPGs have never really been very consistent with them. You could get an upgrade but you are just as likely to get a body-bag. Take it from someone who's been through that wonderful experience.

 

And a Prooflike coin can still be Prooflike, even if no longer uncirculated. Ditto for a "Specimen" coin still being a "Specimen" even at grades below 60, though it might be very difficult to recognize it as such.

 

Yep. The problem with Greg's premise is that PR (or SP or whatever) is a method of manufacture but MS is a "state" the coin is in after it's released...as is AU.

 

jom

[coinman1794]

Would one be foolish to pay MS60 prices for an AU58 coin ? If not, then resubmission may just be a classic spinning of the wheels.....GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. With comics, a nice example of a scarce issue must often be obtained at an aggressive price.....and over time it becomes a smart buy.......

 

A true AU58 is often worth more than an MS60. AU58s should have surfaces on an MS63 coin, and often look much nicer than MS60s, which are beat to hell.

[jimjum12]

Would one be foolish to pay MS60 prices for an AU58 coin ? If not, then resubmission may just be a classic spinning of the wheels.....GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. With comics, a nice example of a scarce issue must often be obtained at an aggressive price.....and over time it becomes a smart buy.......

 

A true AU58 is often worth more than an MS60. AU58s should have surfaces on an MS63 coin, and often look much nicer than MS60s, which are beat to hell.

 

....deep down inside, I was always a high grade snob......but more and more I find myself admiring the XF-AU range....so much character at those levels. I recently picked up a nice AU58 Barber 10C with spectacular toning....it really is one of my favorite coins. I've found a lot of neat stuff on eBay with a Variety + AU search. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[orifdoc]

I love looking for great coins in AU58. The ones that interest me most have many features in common with an MS63 or 64 - minimal or no hits, great luster, and superior eye appeal. If what you're after is a great looking coin, certain top end 58s can (sometimes) be had for a fraction of the price of an MS63 or 64. For me, maybe one in fifty 58s would qualify as this type of coin. If you're buying with the idea of sneaking if through for an upgrade you better have superior skills to the graders at the TPGs to make that a winning strategy on a consistent basis.

 

There are coins that straddle the AU/MS fence though. Once in a while you might get lucky with an upgrade. Not a good bet in most situations though.

[JIM F.]

Don't person_without_enough_empathy, but this is the best pics I can take.

 

 

[jom]

JB: Given the $5 Indian is one of the toughest coins to grade your photo really is nowhere near it needs to be to even take a wild- guess at the grade. However, here's my WAG: The reverse photo makes it look < AU58. There are no luster bands around the head of the eagle....for example.

 

jom

[Mozin]

My experience is that PCGS will give a Bust series coin a 58 grade when they find any wear on the portrait or in the field. NGC will often give the same coin a MS grade. The difference in grading service standards is pretty consistent. Prices in the auctions support my thinking.

[James_OldeTowne]

Actually I do have a coin in mind, in this case a PCGS $5 Indian in an older green holder (not rattler). I can't take decent images or I would post. And yes, I know I meant to say AU-58.

The OP is specific (in this post) about sunken-relief gold -- Indian $5s, but I'll include $2.50s in the discussion. My answer is Yes there is a chance, as I believe these are the easiest coins in AU-58 to "manipulate" and get into MS-6X holders. From what I see in our submissions and the coins we buy "off the street", the AU-58 in reference to these coins gets applied based on, more than anything else, discoloration from slight rub on the Indian's cheek and on the eagle's shoulder. If evidence of that "rub" can be disguised, then the coins can get upgraded. In many cases, that requires a simple cleaning.

 

Without "help" though, they usually would not upgrade.

 

And of course, in no way at all would I ever advocate "helping" coins into upgrades. Frankly, it wouldn't be worth the time and hassle to get an AU-58 upgraded to MS-61 except for a couple of keys.

 

[BillJones]

I know this is a very general question -- but in general do AU-58 coins have a reasonable chance of upgrading to MS-6x upon re-submission? I am referring to non-modern coins.

 

Thank You.

 

In a perfect grading world, the answer to your question would be "No," but in an imperfect world, the answer is "Maybe."

 

One of the very first coins I had graded was a 1909 $5 Indian. JJ Teaparty submitted it for grading for me to PCGS to go into a "rattle slab" because only member dealers could submit coins for grading in those days. It came back in an AU-58 holder. There were four gold coins in that group and three of them ultimately ended up in higher grade holders. I traded the fourth one for another coin before it was cracked out, but I will guarantee you that that coin is now in holder with a higher grade on it.

 

At any rate, I cracked out that 1909 Indian and resubmitted it to NGC or PCGS, I can't remember which one. That time it came back as an MS-63. The proof that the MS-63 grade was at least commercially acceptable came when I sold coin to a well known dealer for full MS-63 money with no quibbling, no negotiations and no questions asked.

 

What was the right grade? If you got out your 10X and looked for a rub, it was AU-58 because there was a very tiny one. If you graded it by the standards that are applied to most any $5 Indian, it was an MS-63.

 

BTW way although your photos are not very sharp, I don't think that your $5 Indian will upgrade to the MS level.

 

[coinman_23885]

JB: Given the $5 Indian is one of the toughest coins to grade your photo really is nowhere near it needs to be to even take a wild- guess at the grade. However, here's my ASG: The reverse photo makes it look < AU58. There are no luster bands around the head of the eagle....for example.

 

jom

 

+1