Newp! Controversial Neon Monster Bust Half!

[mkman123]

Well said MJ. One thing I see now is that with CAC widely accepted, those with many slabs in their collection now have to decide if they want to send it in and make their coins easier to sell/marketable or don't send it in and then be at the mercy of collectors or dealers who may or may not be honest about coins (trying to get a rip, etc). Choosing to send in to CAC costs time and money.............I'm in that boat right now, most of my collection has no CAC sticker and many of the coins may never have been sent to CAC so my dilemma is should I send them in to see if any get a green bean or gold bean or just leave it alone.

 

I like all my coins but lets say I send them in and many don't get the sticker.......hmmmm do I still like them now or do I feel different....., haven't thought about that but thats something that might come up!

[AnkurJ]

The proof is in the pudding. Many naysayers will realize this when the time to sell comes.

[mkman123]

Oh I wanted to say that if you have a significant collection like 500+ slabs, if each gets a sticker, thats like over 5k! Thats a lot of money!!!

 

And I thought of another thing, I think CAC may cause hesitancy for many to sell a coin if it hasn't been sent to CAC......example: Joe Blow has a nice coin that hasn't been sent to CAC that sells for $50. He knows that recent ebay and auction results show that the same coin with CAC sells for $55, $5 not a big deal. BUT one with the same grade with the gold sticker sells for $200+ dollars.........Joe Blow might be hesitant to just go sell it because what if the one he is selling for $50 could get a gold cac sticker!! Now Joe Blow has to decide should he just sell the coin for $50 or with time and effort find someone to send the coin in to CAC to just see if it can get that coveted gold sticker.

[FishyOne]

Oh I wanted to say that if you have a significant collection like 500+ slabs, if each gets a sticker, thats like over 5k! Thats a lot of money!!!

 

And I thought of another thing, I think CAC may cause hesitancy for many to sell a coin if it hasn't been sent to CAC......example: Joe Blow has a nice coin that hasn't been sent to CAC that sells for $50. He knows that recent ebay and auction results show that the same coin with CAC sells for $55, $5 not a big deal. BUT one with the same grade with the gold sticker sells for $200+ dollars.........Joe Blow might be hesitant to just go sell it because what if the one he is selling for $50 could get a gold cac sticker!! Now Joe Blow has to decide should he just sell the coin for $50 or with time and effort find someone to send the coin in to CAC to just see if it can get that coveted gold sticker.

 

Hi Mike: You should remember that on sub-$500 coins CAC means little as far as re-sale value goes. CAC is a boon to 4 and 5 figure coins.

 

If someone is looking at a generic MS65 Morgan, the CAC sticker is a plus but the lack of it doesn't hurt much (if any).

 

If you hold many coins valued at $1000+ and they are not CAC stickered, that could hurt at re-sale time unless they're gold $10 and $20 pieces and then it won't matter much either unless they're over MS63 and $2,000+ coins.

 

Let's keep things in perspective. For average Joes like me with typical coins that are $200/ea? CAC is not a big deal. But I still like it!

 

EDIT: P.S. I've earned 1 Gold sticker in about 200 submissions to CAC. My Green sticker rate is about 70%. I never EXPECT a gold sticker (and if you saw my coins you'd know why!) But I still like them!

[mommam17]

Don't forget, CAC stickers on cheaper coins means there is no PVC on them. This means a lot to me.

[mkman123]

What abt carbon spots or veridgris (is this another word for pvc?) I've seen cac coins with those two I mentioned

[mommam17]

I think neither is the same as PVC.

[FishyOne]

What abt carbon spots or veridgris (is this another word for pvc?) I've seen cac coins with those two I mentioned

 

PVC is poly-vinyl-chloride. It is a type of plastic that use to be used in some coin "flips" and sometimes still is!

 

Carbon spots are inclusive to the original metallic content of the metal planchet. Verdigris or "bronze disease" appears at any time after striking and can appear after CAC stickers a coin. Neither is related is PVC damage.

[mkman123]

fishyone, thanks for your response regarding CAC.....maybe I shouldn't be so optimistic that my coins would even get gold or even green beans!

 

Thanks for the clarification regarding veridgris and pvc

 

 

[mommam17]

mkman123- Don't you know if your coins are nice and will sticker?

[jpcienkus]

This was one of the most interesting thread I've read since joining this site back in December. First, I'd like to say: Very nice coin Ankur! I hope one day I can see it in person!

 

The read was very much like life in general, so many different personalities, all with varied opinions. In the end, it's what makes life interesting!

[newprepper]

and you got 100

[FishyOne]

fishyone, thanks for your response regarding CAC.....maybe I shouldn't be so optimistic that my coins would even get gold or even green beans!

 

Thanks for the clarification regarding veridgris and pvc

 

 

You are welcome Mike. I bet many, probably most, of the coins in your collection would get a green sticker. I know you have been quite selective in the examples of mine that you have seen for sale! That is a good thing of course. As noted earlier, if they are sub-$1000 pieces then CAC becomes more of a nice bonus when selling and you will not be hurt much at all financially by the absence of a sticker on such pieces.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Don't forget, CAC stickers on cheaper coins means there is no PVC on them. This means a lot to me.

What abt carbon spots or veridgris (is this another word for pvc?) I've seen cac coins with those two I mentioned

 

Or you could learn to detect these problems for yourself (for free) and save the fees. CAC has no secret methods of detection - they visually inspect the coin and look for the indications. Reading a couple of articles on PVC and verdigris and carbon spots will give you almost the same knowledge that these guys have - for free.

[mommam17]

physics- not as easy as you say. Sometimes it's very difficult to detect. CAC and NGC have disagreed of it's presence on 1 coin I owned. Ask Oreville about PVC, he had 9 coins with PVC on them and didn't know it. How can you say reading a couple of articles will give you almost the same knowledge as CAC?

[jom]

Does it make a lot newer collectors a little "lazy"? Perhaps. Probably. I do think CAC, makes it easier for newer collectors to feel comfortable faster

 

Sure but do collectors (more often than not) take advantage of this? I'm not so sure as I've seen evidence to the contrary as I stated above.

 

CAC, actually acts as teacher if you listen and learn what to look for and what it takes to really make the grade.

 

Yes, and the reason is that JA will often help you if you call in to ask questions. This definitely NOT the case with the TPGs. In many cases it is a guessing game with the TPGs as to why they graded a coin the way they did. How many times have you been faced with the question "should I crack it out or not?". But, yes, CAC can be a good teacher but so are the TPGs...when one takes advantage of it.

 

It is hard for some collectors and dealers to suddenly hear that coins they thought were solid for the grade all these years are suddenly not deemed so by a handful of seasoned pros.

 

Let's say as a collector over the years you learned your series and did your homework and you bought legit PQ coins. Now its time to sell. Before CAC, when you went to sell you were more at the dealers mercy.

 

But isn't this what the TPGs claimed they could do some 25 years ago now? Didn't PCGS claim you wouldn't be at the "mercy of dealers anymore" in their sales pitch? How is it all that much different now with CAC?

 

Sure with the TPGs we were talking grade. Whereas with CAC it's the "PQ" thing (ie more precision). In a lot of ways there is seemingly NO end to this....years down the road are we going to have a 5th party grader who grades the CAC?

 

I'm just tossing out thoughts here...I can see both sides of this because CAC does offer a nice service but will collectors take advantage of this or will it be some years from now a new service will be "needed" because the market finds itself dependent on the services yet again?

 

jom

[mkman123]

Didn't cac change its prices recently? Do you still pay if they decline a coin? I for one think if they decline a cac, a short paragraph should be included saying: coin not cacd due to old cleaning, tooled, at, etc. That way JA won't get a ton of phone calls.

 

Fishyone, maybe I will do a experiment........send all my coins to robec, have him photo it all, send them to cac, and then post the pics and then let everyone guess if any will cac and see what happens.

[physics-fan3.14]

physics- not as easy as you say. Sometimes it's very difficult to detect. CAC and NGC have disagreed of it's presence on 1 coin I owned. Ask Oreville about PVC, he had 9 coins with PVC on them and didn't know it. How can you say reading a couple of articles will give you almost the same knowledge as CAC?

 

The fact remains that CAC uses no secret methods. If CAC says there was PVC on his coins (assuming that they were correct), then Oreville also could have known there was PVC on his coins. Oreville lacked the knowledge, which is widely available. PVC is no secret - it shows up as a haze or green spots. There are no secret detection methods. If CAC could see it, Oreville could see it. He just didn't know what he was looking for.

 

One could argue that the price of his education about the appearance was $108 (the price of admission at CAC). But why not learn this for free elsewhere?

 

 

[mommam17]

The fact remains CAC has one of the best eyes in numismatics. Sometimes they see problems collectors don't see. He didn't get his knowledge from reading articles.

[gmarguli]

The fact remains CAC has one of the best eyes in numismatics. Sometimes they see problems collectors don't see. He didn't get his knowledge from reading articles.

 

And he didn't get his knowledge by allowing others to make his decisions for him.

[comicdonna]

[mommam17]

He got his knowledge from looking at many coins. We all can't be experts like you seem to expect from collectors.

[James_OldeTowne]

Don't forget, CAC stickers on cheaper coins means there is no PVC on them. This means a lot to me.

This seems to be inaccurate. The sticker would mean that CAC believes there is no PVC present. PVC starts out as an invisible contaminant and I'm pretty sure that at that stage, it cannot be visually detected on a coin within a slab.

 

Where I took issue with gmarguli's post is where he becomes personal and judgemental towards many numismatists:

This hobby is filled with clueless collectors and many clueless dealers. People who have decided that the TPG and now Stickerers can do the job for them and they will just buy what looks pretty. Few people try to learn anything anymore and then when something that should be well known gets pointed out to them they are shocked.

I interpret this to mean that apparently gmarguli has met most of the collectors and dealers in numismatics so that he, as a 'expert' knows that only 'few people try to learn anything anymore'.

Nothing you quoted above would lead me to believe that gmarguli has met, or believes he has met, "most of the collectors and dealers in numismatics". How did you come to that interpretation? Another interpretation could have been that gmarguli has considerable experience with the hobby and might feel qualified to make a generalization (whether or not I agreed with it).

[gmarguli]

He got his knowledge from looking at many coins. We all can't be experts like you seem to expect from collectors.

 

Having knowledge does not mean being an expert. Never did I suggest such, no matter how many times the people who disagree with what I wrote wish to lie/pretend I did. However, not having knowledge does make you clueless.

[Hard Times]

edited because James Early does not deserve any response......

 

Best, HT

[jom]

However, not having knowledge does make you clueless.

 

No. Not having knowledge and then not making an effort to gain that knowledge makes you clueless.

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

However, not having knowledge does make you clueless.

 

No. Not having knowledge and then not making an effort to gain that knowledge makes you clueless.

 

jom

 

No. Not having knowledge and not making an effort to acquire it, makes you remain clueless.

[BLive1972]

I'll be paying $12.50 per coin if it gets a sticker. If it doesn't, there's no charge.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

physics- not as easy as you say. Sometimes it's very difficult to detect. CAC and NGC have disagreed of it's presence on 1 coin I owned. Ask Oreville about PVC, he had 9 coins with PVC on them and didn't know it. How can you say reading a couple of articles will give you almost the same knowledge as CAC?

 

The fact remains that CAC uses no secret methods. If CAC says there was PVC on his coins (assuming that they were correct), then Oreville also could have known there was PVC on his coins. Oreville lacked the knowledge, which is widely available. PVC is no secret - it shows up as a haze or green spots. There are no secret detection methods. If CAC could see it, Oreville could see it. He just didn't know what he was looking for.

 

One could argue that the price of his education about the appearance was $108 (the price of admission at CAC). But why not learn this for free elsewhere?

 

 

I usually am a coward about commenting on subjects like this, because when I do, it is usually causes me to endure physical pain.

 

However, there are times when I must be brave.

 

Haze does not automatically mean PVC. I don't think it is correct to generalize that it does. There, I said it. I feel better.

 

On the subject of What Oreville can and can't detect, I think that was a generalized comment also, and one that may not be deserved.

 

I met the gentleman, although he does not know it, and he would not have any idea who I am. I observed his visual interpretation of coins for a very long time, in a very structured environment. I did not detect a lack of knowledge, or an individual that did not know what he was looking for. I think that may have been a little harsh.

 

Then again, what do I know about physics.....

[mumu]

Rocket science is easy, just mix the nitrogen tetroxide and hydrazine and bam you're off...Everone should be able to make their own rocket fuel using wikipedia articles.

 

 

I have been, not anti-CAC, but anti current CAC limited offering. I like the a la carte ability to consult an expert however I hate that they dont offer a database with cert lookup for information on a particular coin. Yes I realize as I have been told many times that if I send a coin to CAC I can call up and get to speak to the clearly not busy JA and get detailed info about my coin, however thats all fine and good if I am the one who send the coin in. If a coin is sent in and fails CAC and then is sold off many times with no such disclosure, how do you get info on said coin other than just randomly calling about every coin you buy in case its been to CAC? And what's JA gonna have, a little scribble pad 5 years from now with what he thought about coins he looked at last year? Get with the times. For nearly the same cost that the TPGs are offering everything that they do there is no reason CAC shouldnt have a searchable database for theirs.