Newp! Controversial Neon Monster Bust Half!

[comicdonna]

Wow, tough crowd.

 

I'd say that the single biggest loss of knowledge in this hobby happened in the last 20 years. Collectors stopped learning and instead decided to let others do the thinking for them. It may be harsh to say it to people, but it doesn't make it any less true.

 

What percent of collectors can accurately grade? I'm not talking about being able to split hairs between 67 and 68, but just between VF & XF or XF & AU.

 

What percent of collectors can consistently detect problems like cleaning or PVC?

 

What percent of collectors can tell a coin is likely/not likely AT based on their experience with seeing other examples?

 

This hobby is filled with clueless collectors and many clueless dealers. People who have decided that the TPG and now Stickerers can do the job for them and they will just buy what looks pretty. Few people try to learn anything anymore and then when something that should be well known gets pointed out to them they are shocked.

I understand now. If a collector doesn't have enough knowledge about the hobby, bash him. I am one of those knowledgeless collectors. (in this hobby anyways} To avoid what Ankur has gone through in this thread, I will refrain from posting my new purchases.

 

 

[jerseycat10]

To avoid what Ankur has gone through in this thread, I will refrain from posting my new purchases.

 

 

Comicdonna...

 

He's not being ripped to shreds because of his new purchase.

 

Rather, he is being ripped to shreds because he previously passed on this piece twice at a fraction of the price, and only recently bought it after it attained a precious CAC sticker, thereby admitting that he relies on CAC to determine what is AT/NT or PQ/dreck. This is fine for the average collector, but Ankur is a collector of significant means that also moonlights as a dealer.

[newprepper]

So even though he admits to passing before he had the knowledge he possesses today, he still deserves to be ripped?

[comicdonna]

To avoid what Ankur has gone through in this thread, I will refrain from posting my new purchases.

 

 

Comicdonna...

 

He's not being ripped to shreds because of his new purchase.

 

Rather, he is being ripped to shreds because he previously passed on this piece twice at a fraction of the price, and only recently bought it after it attained a precious CAC sticker, thereby admitting that he relies on CAC to determine what is AT/NT or PQ/dreck. This is fine for the average collector, but Ankur is a collector of significant means that also moonlights as a dealer.

I just reread the thread. Nothing was mentioned about "dealing". Besides, Ankur mentioned it would remain in his collection for a very long time. He started a thread to show his new purchase, and was bashed for overpaying and not being able to distinguish AT from NT the first 2 times. CAC and at least one reputable dealer gave this coin raving reviews, so he decided to purchase it this time. I just don't see what he did wrong.

[AnkurJ]

To avoid what Ankur has gone through in this thread, I will refrain from posting my new purchases.

Comicdonna...

 

He's not being ripped to shreds because of his new purchase.

 

Rather, he is being ripped to shreds because he previously passed on this piece twice at a fraction of the price, and only recently bought it after it attained a precious CAC sticker, thereby admitting that he relies on CAC to determine what is AT/NT or PQ/dreck. This is fine for the average collector, but Ankur is a collector of significant means that also moonlights as a dealer.

 

Ok to be VERY clear. I have been collecting well before CAC existed. When I took my coins to CAC for evaluation, I had a pass rate of about 65%. That is not too shabby if you ask me.

 

Some people rely on dealers to pick out specific coins for them based on trust and a relationship that is built. Others have dealers, such as Mark Feld, look over coins for them at auction or other venue before buying them.

 

This is exactly what CAC does, and the only difference is they put their money where their mouth is. To this day, I buy many coins without the sticker, and the majority of them PASS. Why? Because I have LEARNED from going to CAC and speaking with their graders what to look for. So some of you may think that I am just buying the sticker and lack education, and I have no problem with what you think. I know my ability as a numismatist. I have learned a great deal from CAC, and it has made my collection all that much beter.

 

Ankur

[therealanaconda-migration]

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a coin more when it has a CAC sticker as compared to when it doesn't.

 

While I didn't read the entire thread, I got the impression that maybe you don't have as much confidence in your ability to render an opinion with regard to whether or not a coin is AT or NT as compared to the faith you have in an opinion rendered by CAC. In my honest opinion, your humility is to be admired.

 

Besides, even if you were someone who thought you knew everything about coins, wanting a CAC stickered coin more than a non stickered coin is ok because there are many people who value CAC stickered coins, regardless of CAC's real acumen or your hypothetical lack of acumen, so when it comes time to sell, if CAC is still respected, then your coins will probably be more marketable.

 

By the way, the coin looks original and NT to me.

 

Finally, you should have that coin imaged by someone that can really capture the coin, and I promise you, someone can capture all of what that coin has in the way of beauty.

[Hard Times]

Wow, tough crowd.

 

I'd say that the single biggest loss of knowledge in this hobby happened in the last 20 years. Collectors stopped learning and instead decided to let others do the thinking for them. It may be harsh to say it to people, but it doesn't make it any less true.

 

What percent of collectors can accurately grade? I'm not talking about being able to split hairs between 67 and 68, but just between VF & XF or XF & AU.

 

What percent of collectors can consistently detect problems like cleaning or PVC?

 

What percent of collectors can tell a coin is likely/not likely AT based on their experience with seeing other examples?

 

This hobby is filled with clueless collectors and many clueless dealers. People who have decided that the TPG and now Stickerers can do the job for them and they will just buy what looks pretty. Few people try to learn anything anymore and then when something that should be well known gets pointed out to them they are shocked.

I understand now. If a collector doesn't have enough knowledge about the hobby, bash him. I am one of those knowledgeless collectors. (in this hobby anyways} To avoid what Ankur has gone through in this thread, I will refrain from posting my new purchases.

 

 

You must be proud of yourself Mr. Marguli saying such offensive words. I always take issue when folks that come on the boards and make it personal as you just did, as if they/you are somehow far superior and knowledgeable for the reasons they/you claim to justify.

 

You just bashed many folks here and elsewhere in numismatics because they like to get expert opinions from the best graders. I have a full time job outside of numismatics like most, and thus I don't have the time to grade as well as the graders for NGC, PCGS, and CAC who do this full time and who have so for many years. Hence with a resounding yes, I will take their opinion any day of the week and then make an assessment, as I would from John Agre, Mark Feld, and Bill Jones to name a few. I think that is what most of us do. This is not laziness or cluelessness or whatever you wish to call others and I, it is just common sense.

 

Best, HT

[e1cnr]

I don't see any problems about buying a coin that I previously passed on a few times because my collecting interests change as well as available cash for purchases.

[Hard Times]

To avoid what Ankur has gone through in this thread, I will refrain from posting my new purchases.

 

 

Comicdonna...

 

He's not being ripped to shreds because of his new purchase.

 

Rather, he is being ripped to shreds because he previously passed on this piece twice at a fraction of the price, and only recently bought it after it attained a precious CAC sticker, thereby admitting that he relies on CAC to determine what is AT/NT or PQ/dreck. This is fine for the average collector, but Ankur is a collector of significant means that also moonlights as a dealer.

 

So what?

 

Ankur has a right to pass on something, and change his mind, even if he changes his mind because John Albanese has assessed this coin positively at a later time (not that I am saying this was Ankur's reason for changing his mind). What can be wrong with that? Sheesh!!!!!

 

Honestly, those here who are having a hard time with Ankur's success to buy this incredible bustie seem abit jealous.

[jerseycat10]

I don't see any problems about buying a coin that I previously passed on a few times because my collecting interests change as well as available cash for purchases.

 

I agree with statement. However, it doesn't apply to the situation at hand. He didn't buy it because his interests changed. He bought it because it attained a sticker. Additionally... given hr drives a Ferrari... I don't think the $900 was too expensive the first time.

[Hard Times]

I don't see any problems about buying a coin that I previously passed on a few times because my collecting interests change as well as available cash for purchases.

 

I agree with statement. However, it doesn't apply to the situation at hand. He didn't buy it because his interests changed. He bought it because it attained a sticker. Additionally... given hr drives a Ferrari... I don't think the $900 was too expensive the first time.

 

I will repeat, even if your opinion is correct - so what if he drives a Ferrari and so what if he did actually decide to buy it only after it CACed? Nothing wrong with that and you appear to be jealous......

 

Best, HT

[AnkurJ]

Where's the popcorn icon? Ah there it is!

 

[Hard Times]

Where's the popcorn icon? Ah there it is!

 

(thumbs u

[brg5658]

So some of you may think that I am just buying the sticker and lack education, and I have no problem with what you think. I know my ability as a numismatist. I have learned a great deal from CAC, and it has made my collection all that much beter.

 

Ankur

 

Many of us think this way because of the things you write here on the boards. I think of you first and foremost as a dealer. Why? Because, well, I have purchased coins from you on the BST and you have a website devoted to selling coins. That paired with the fact that your main "marketing" thrust in your BST posts here and on your site are that your coins for sale are CAC approved. I have never seen another dealer put so much emphasis on the little holographic stickers. Not saying it's bad or good, but it is what it is...and actions speak louder than words.

 

I do know that you also have a very significant collection of your own, and (apparently) have a large amount of money to throw at said collection. In another recent post you said you were purchasing a gold coin from Doug Winter contingent on the coin passing CAC. What is such an action supposed to lead us to believe? Again, not bad or good, just stating logical conclusions from your own words.

 

For the record, I do find the bust half attractive. I hope you enjoy it for many years to come.

[jerseycat10]

I don't see any problems about buying a coin that I previously passed on a few times because my collecting interests change as well as available cash for purchases.

 

I agree with statement. However, it doesn't apply to the situation at hand. He didn't buy it because his interests changed. He bought it because it attained a sticker. Additionally... given hr drives a Ferrari... I don't think the $900 was too expensive the first time.

 

I will repeat, even if your opinion is correct - so what if he drives a Ferrari and so what if he did actually decide to buy it only after it CACed? Nothing wrong with that and you appear to be jealous......

 

Best, HT

 

I was merely trying to explain to the masses why Ankur is getting drilled. I am not drilling him myself. I happen to think that the coin in question is nothing short of amazing, and I think it is a good value even at 3800+.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Where's the popcorn icon? Ah there it is!

[AnkurJ]

So some of you may think that I am just buying the sticker and lack education, and I have no problem with what you think. I know my ability as a numismatist. I have learned a great deal from CAC, and it has made my collection all that much beter.

 

Ankur

 

I do know that you also have a very significant collection of your own, and (apparently) have a large amount of money to throw at said collection. In another recent post you said you were purchasing a gold coin from Doug Winter contingent on the coin passing CAC. What is such an action supposed to lead us to believe? Again, not bad or good, just stating logical conclusions from your own words.

 

Why contingent? So that I know it wasn't puttied, whizzed, lazered, tooled etc.

When spending that much, why not if the dealer has no problem?

[delta]

I think almost everyone who posted in this thread is sincerely congratulating Ankur for this very prestigious acquisition, and he is not being actually criticized, but we are really only having a little fun teasing him about it. Comicdonna please don't misinterpret this thread, virtually all of us are proud of our member Ankur, so definitely don't hesitate to also post your recent purchases, let's see 'em!

 

[gmarguli]

You just bashed many folks here and elsewhere in numismatics because they like to get expert opinions from the best graders.

No, I have criticized many collectors because they substitute learning for allowing others to do it for them. I cannot imagine spending my hard earned money on a hobby while being blind.

 

I have a full time job outside of numismatics like most, and thus I don't have the time to grade as well as the graders for NGC, PCGS, and CAC who do this full time and who have so for many years

I never said you should be able to grade like them. In fact, I specifically said otherwise. There are people who can't tell VF from XF or XF from AU. That's not TPG-level grading, that's basic, should have learned it early on, knowledge.

 

If you wish to be blind and lack knowledge while appointing others to learn in your place, you are free to do that. Don't worry, throughout all areas of life, when people do this it usually turns out well for them.

[jom]

 

You must be proud of yourself Mr. Marguli saying such offensive words. I always take issue when folks that come on the boards and make it personal as you just did, as if they/you are somehow far superior and knowledgeable for the reasons they/you claim to justify.

 

I'm going to have to disagree a little bit with HT's assessment here. I do believe that many of us (myself included) have the tendency to take the easy route when a coin is buried in a slab or has some other evaluation such as a sticker or some other designation. It's a human reaction. Some do this more than others and, yes, I do believe there is an over-dependence in the market based on what "other people think" almost to the point of absurdity.

 

I admit much of this comes from reading the coin message boards but a lot has to do with just observation at coins shows. I can't tell you how many times I've seen raw coins presented on boards (or at shows) that get overly scrutinized. You get the sense sometimes people are just pulling things out of their *** just to come up with a reason the coin didn't slab. On the other hand often you see either generous accolades given (or simply no criticism at all) on a slabbed coin when you just know you've seen many just like it that have been rejected.

 

I recently had a coin rejected at CAC that I thought would get a sticker. I talked to JA about it and he gave his reasoning. He's nice enough to do this (a great service if you ask me) and has done this with a few coins of mine he's rejected before. However, this coin I simply do not understand. Whatever the case, now that the coin is not stickered there will be an unfortunate "stigma" (so to speak) attached to the piece. I'm sure at some point someone will ask me "why is this not stickered?". Of course, a depreciation of value that will eventually follow soon. Why is this? Well, it's not CAC'd...that's why. To many, that is the most important thing. Not what their own eyes are telling them...but the sticker on the slab rules all.

 

There is also the "elitist" attitude toward PCGS vs. NGC. Where seemingly similar quality coins get sold at huge premiums (or discounts) just due to the TPG label. I mean, REALLY? Of course, you'll never know how many correctly graded NGC coins get sent off to PCGS because of this premium....

 

To me, these are all just signs that many in the marketplace have an unhealthy dependence on "other people's opinions".

 

That doesn't mean the TPGs or CAC have not brought a good service to the market. But I think it's ironic that the TPG's have been such a boon to the marketplace (and the way they market themselves) they have now created a situation where they get heavily criticized when they make the few inevitable mistakes. Which, IMO, is another sign of this dependence.

 

And I don't even want to get into the "registry" lunacy...which, again, is yet another unfortunate sign....

 

jom

[jimjum12]

Wow, tough crowd.

 

We need to transform 'em into comic collectors, Mike......where the love is GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[newprepper]

You need a drink of Kool-Aid, that's all................haha

[MJ]

I think CAC tends to rub veteren collectors and dealers the most.

 

It is easy to understand some of the animosity. CAC has somewhat leveled the playing field. All the years veterans have spent learning the market and the determining the subtle nuisances of true PQ coins has been lessened to some degree. I get some of the animosity.There is less due paying. It has also cost this group some money as the "picks" are less frequent. Less low hanging fruit. Does it make a lot newer collectors a little "lazy"? Perhaps. Probably. I do think CAC, makes it easier for newer collectors to feel comfortable faster. That there is less of an opportunity of being taken advantage of by seasoned veterans. This is actually good for the hobby. It brings more new money into the market. CAC, actually acts as teacher if you listen and learn what to look for and what it takes to really make the grade.

 

It is hard for some collectors and dealers to suddenly hear that coins they thought were solid for the grade all these years are suddenly not deemed so by a handful of seasoned pros. Easy to see why there would be resentment. Easy to see why there would be blowback. It is easier for this group just to say, " I know how to grade coins. I've been doing it all my life. I don't need CAC to tell me how to grade". They need to say that as their holdings are worth a lot less money if they in fact they own not solid for the grade coins. Truthfully, this group could stand to learn the most from Albanese and company.

 

Dealers as a whole have a harder time claiming "PQ" on all their offerings. Dealers with "C" coins that tried to pass them off as "B" or "A" coins have had their knees cut off. Trying to sell "C" or "D" coins at the same price level as "B' or "A' coins is now almost impossible. Thank goodness. Separate the wheat from the shaft. There is natural resentment from this group.This is where I see most of the anti CAC rants coming from. Dealers that have always carried premium coins have less of a problem with CAC and generally accept or embrace the service

 

Does it mean that coins without CAC stickers are less worthy? Heck no. There are plenty of rejected coins that are still nice in many circumstances.The majority of coins have never even been to CAC.

 

Yes, stickered coins do act as a security blanket. It also adds liquidity. I like liquidity especially in a non fungible arena.

 

I do tend to scrutinize non CAC coins more. That has actually improved my grading within a grade ability. I basically only collect gem plus coins so my view maybe different then somebody who collects circulated material.

 

CAC endorsed material is more important to me in series that is not my speciality. I can buy these more comfortably, especially non generic gold. Within my own specialities I'm somewhat less concerned about coins that have not been to New Jersey.

 

Personally I think it's more important to know how graders grade coins then it is to grade coins by ones own interpretations. Learning what graders look for is more important then personal interpretations in my opinion.

 

Just my personal opinions from where I sit.

 

MJ

 

 

[AnkurJ]

Excellent post MJ. Thank you.

[coinman_23885]

Excellent post MJ. Thank you.

 

I agree.

[lehigh96]

Excellent post MJ. Thank you.

 

That might be the post of the year. Perhaps the best post I have ever read regarding the CAC. Thanks MJ.

[FishyOne]

MJ spent some time putting that post together. It makes sense. All of us are different. Relative newcomers like myself appreciate CAC for what it is.

 

I am not buying 5 figure coins at this time. That may or may not change in the future. The fact that I have more confidence in my purchases is one of the reasons I like CAC. I actually enjoy buying coins that are non-CAC and submitting them. It adds to the enjoyment of the hobby for me.

 

Others are free to do as they please and disparage if they will. It is a free country (mostly! ) and the market will ultimately determine who wins and who loses, who fails and who succeeds is up to us - the consumer.

 

 

[BLive1972]

Being a new collector and still learning what to look for and how to properly grade, I don't yet trust myself, and if I don' t have access to this forum for advice, I feel that if CAC approves, its my reassurance that the coin is quality; however, I don't believe that you can only go by the sticker. I've recently made a purchase for a Morgan that was MS65 and CAC and didn't like it at all when I had it in hand. I sold it immediately and it was easier to sell just because of the sticker (so I was told). The dealer even had to look it up because he was skeptical.

 

I'm lucky to have CAC in the area. I was able to schedule a walk through this Wed, so I can actually sit a talk about why my coin did or didn't receive a sticker. This is a great opportunity and will help me know what to look for even when buying TPG coins.

[Hard Times]

Well said MJ. (thumbs u

 

Where I took issue with gmarguli's post is where he becomes personal and judgemental towards many numismatists:

 

This hobby is filled with clueless collectors and many clueless dealers. People who have decided that the TPG and now Stickerers can do the job for them and they will just buy what looks pretty. Few people try to learn anything anymore and then when something that should be well known gets pointed out to them they are shocked.

 

I interpret this to mean that apparently gmarguli has met most of the collectors and dealers in numismatics so that he, as a 'expert' knows that only 'few people try to learn anything anymore'. Again, I take issue with those that think they can judge everyone else from a high podium. Having said that, if gmarguli had phrased it better, what he says has some constructive points, but he made it personal and I stand by my criticism of his post.

 

On the other hand, MJ's post is one with a positive view of the issue and more exemplary IMHO of how 'clueless collectors and dealers' use CAC.

 

Best, HT

[MJ]

Now on to the selling part-------

 

Let's say as a collector over the years you learned your series and did your homework and you bought legit PQ coins. Now its time to sell. Before CAC, when you went to sell you were more at the dealers mercy. Dealers "could" potentially say that your coins were low end for the grade or over graded and potentially lowball you. If you bought right and your coins earned stickers then the "lowball" offer scenario has diminished. Your coins just became more liquid. You potentially unlocked more value.

 

The gold sticker was designed to warn collectors that they had an under graded coin and to not sell on the cheap. That in fact they hard a premium coin.

 

Obviously, not all dealers or even most dealers would lowball you when it came to sell but it has been known to happen. CAC stickered coins give you more of a leg to stand on.

 

CAC stickered coins have been rewarded at the middle to high end of the grade price wise and punished at the low end. All coins within the grade are not alike. The low end coins tend not pull down the solid for grade coins as much since the advent of CAC. At least there is more awareness. Gradeflation was a serious problem in the industry. CAC has helped greatly in that area. In some series more then others. Generic gem gold for sure.

 

Again, it's easy to see why CAC would potentially miff some folks off.

 

MJ