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Heritage sellers

Started by dlshaw,

51 posts in this topic

dlshaw

dlshaw

Posted
Posted

Do the people for Heritage have to pay the 15% commission fee if they buy at the fun sales?

If not that sure puts them in a better position for buying.

Just wondering.

I used to do antiques auctions but thought it not proper to bid on items that I was auctioning.

ADDED:

Reason I asked was I saw a Heritage person selling Indian head cents on ebay.

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gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
Posted

I think Heritage said yes. It's another part of the company that does the bidding. However, as we all know, it's taking money out of one pocket and putting it into the other.

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New_Horizons

New_Horizons

Posted
Posted

The plot thickens... I am awaiting an 'official' answer from Heritage now, and-- when received-- will discuss with all, the story!

It was only last year, that they (Heritage) admitted to bidding on items in their auctions. They claimed, then, that they did pay the commissions, just as anyone else would.

My story has a different, ominous side to it... mad.gif

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jtryka

jtryka

Posted
Posted

As far as the eBay auctions go, Heritage routinely puts excess inventory up on eBay, but given the coins I've bought from them on eBay, they are making less than they would selling them out of inventory, or probably their auctions as well. Concerning their employees bidding in their own auctions, that's the first I've heard of it, but it wouldn't surprise me. It really would be nothing more than shill bidding, which I don't like on eBay and wouldn't like here.

 

There are a number of concerns here, that I am not sure Heritage has addressed (if they have, and that's likely, I am not aware of it). They have access to my maximum bid amount, so if a lot is not selling so well, what would stop them from bidding just under my maximum bid? There is an inherant conflict there if they are bidding. I am pretty disciplined with my bidding and ususally place a max bid for what I am willing to pay, and since I am not bidding on ultra rarities, can usually find another coin of similar quality if I am patient, and eventually I'll get the price I want. This is not true of the really rare coins where there may be so few it takes years to find another, an in those cases, Heritage bidding may artificially inflate those prices, since people are likely to engage in a bidding war.

 

Certainly, if Heritage wants to own these coins and wins them, that's their business, but if they are doing it for a game to increase prices and fees, then eventually I would think it would catch up with them. Especially when they pay crazy prices and can't find a buyer for them. Just my opinion.

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whatthe-migration

whatthe-migration

Posted
Posted

The practice of bidding in your own auction is illegal in many states but not in Texas. As far as this practice goes, there is no grey area. It is extremely unethical.

 

This idea that it is the employees of heritage bidding is just silly. It is the auction house bidding. PLAIN AND SIMPLE

 

HERITAGE SHOULD NOT BID IN THEIR OWN AUCTIONS.

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gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
Posted

The practice of bidding in your own auction is illegal in many states but not in Texas. As far as this practice goes, there is no grey area. It is extremely unethical.

 

Why? They are not the coin owners. They are bidding for fresh coins just like everyone else. Highest bidder wins.

 

 

This idea that it is the employees of heritage bidding is just silly. It is the auction house bidding. PLAIN AND SIMPLE

 

Actually, they say it is another division of Heritage that is bidding. The bidders do NOT know the other bids, so they are bidding blindly. I believe there is a law covering this.

 

All Heritage is doing is either taking the place of a lower bidder and they lose the lot OR they are willing to pay more than the other people on the market and win the lot. As a consignor, that is a winning situation.

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Chippewa

Chippewa

Posted
Posted

I personally do not think Heritage does this in an unethical way. Let me explain.

 

In a fairly large number of Heritage auctions I have won bids at amounts substantially below the maxumum bid that I put into the Heritage system. They obviously know what the maximum bid is that internet bidders have placed and could easily bid up the price so that no money is left on the table. I think there are other auction houses that do just that. However, Heritage obviously does not do that.

 

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keithdagen

keithdagen

Posted
Posted

I'll add that it is light years better than Teletrade's system, where a seller can buy back his coins and Teletrade will log it as a legitimate sale. Ever wonder why many moderns seem to reach astronomical prices, and then are offered again for sale three months later?

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prooflike

prooflike

Posted
Posted

Many years ago, ebay allowed sellers to bid on their own auctions, and then they changed it to where sellers could only bid once on their own auctions, and then no self-bidding. The reason why ebay 'disallowed' self-bidding is because they introduced reserve fees.

 

Ebay has always made improvements to their site and I think they offer incentive bonuses to their employees to those that device plans to make it as difficult as possible to use the site. Their latest improvement was to make it a few extra mouse click to search completed auctions...

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RotatedRainbows

RotatedRainbows

Posted
Posted

I'll add that it is light years better than Teletrade's system, where a seller can buy back his coins and Teletrade will log it as a legitimate sale. Ever wonder why many moderns seem to reach astronomical prices, and then are offered again for sale three months later?

 

The only way the prices show up as legitimate sales is if the seller actively bids on his auctions which also means that they pay both buyer and seller fees. If the seller puts a minimum sell price (reserve) and he gets them back then the prices will not show up as a sale in the prices realized.

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keithdagen

keithdagen

Posted
Posted

RR,

 

True, but it is a small price to pay to basically control the market price of your coin if the population is extremely low, like state quarters with pops of a handful. You can "sell" your piece two or three times to establish the "market" that you want, then sell the thing for real to someone who doesn't know what the system is capable of.

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gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
Posted

Ebay has always made improvements to their site and I think they offer incentive bonuses to their employees to those that device plans to make it as difficult as possible to use the site. Their latest improvement was to make it a few extra mouse click to search completed auctions...

 

How about their new "help" system. Nothing like clicking on help and a very small window opening with categories you have to guess. Also, the complete shutdown of SafeHarbor was a great help. I was tired of reporting frauds. Now I don't have to since they won't even read it.

 

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New_Horizons

New_Horizons

Posted
Posted

EVP--

why bother sending the thread to Mr. Rohan-- he doesn't seem to be interested in responding...

I sent an e-mail request for information two full business days ago, and have yet to receive a reply. Is there a coin attorney in the house? I think we need to talk!!! mad.gif

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
Posted

why bother sending the thread to Mr. Rohan-- he doesn't seem to be interested in responding...

 

I don't know Mr. Rohan well, but from what I do know of him, he seems like a competent enough businessman. If I were he, I would certainly discuss the matter of a response with his senior people.

 

There are many reasons why a person may not respond, the most important is that one ought not mix it up in an Internet forum. That is one of the dumbest things that a senior executive of any sizable organization can do.

 

Additionally, you should not read too much into his not responding to your email query after two days. He is likely a very busy person. I have emailed him at a very late hour (TX time), and he has responded to me. With him, it is likely a matter or priority and whether or not he deems it wise to deal directly with you. If I were he, and if I didn't know you, I'd probably not respond to you either.

 

If the issue were important enough to me, then I'd find a better way of dealing with it than to respond to every person individually. And, probably not via an Internet forum either...

 

Bottom line: don't feel slighted that he hasn't responded. He needs to guage the issue and decide on a proper course of action. And, that course of action may not be what you prefer.

 

Also, please remember that Heritage is extremely busy these days. FUN just ended, and the Beelzeburg sale goes off imminently. He hasn't responded to my email either, and I'm not slighted.

 

EVP

 

PS It took me so long to type this msg that Greg actually just responded to my email...

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Coinosaurus

Coinosaurus

Posted
Posted

If I were running business I think I would deal with this in a Coin World interview or some such.....particularly if I had a history with those people, which Heritage quite likely does. EVP is right, you don't want to get mixed up on a message board with this kind of topic.

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
Posted

DH is very careful about the manner in which he mixes it up. First, he does so on HIS Internet message board. Second, he controls the context. He selects the messages, and he does not allow responses.

 

With DH, there is no mixing it up because it's all well controlled.

 

EVP

 

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GregRohan-migration

GregRohan-migration

Posted
Posted

Here are the answers and clarifications to the questions I saw:

 

1) Heritage Rare Coin Galleries does bid in Heritage Numismatic Auctions sales. This fact has always been disclosed in our Terms and Conditions, and is above board. The Heritage family of companies is both an auctioneer and a dealer. We are therefore significant participants in this market. It would be anticompetitive -- and thus we do not feel it would be fair to our consignors -- for Heritage Rare Coin Galleries to be excluded from bidding. Heritage Rare Coin Galleries bids are entered prior to the start of the sale and compete equally with all other bids. In fact any floor bid or Internet bid that ties Heritage Rare Coin Galleries bid is award to the floor bidder or Internet bidder.

 

2) That said, we always attempt to ensure that our bidding is on a level playing field with everyone else's, and that no other consignor or bidder is at a disadvantage to us. We pay the same Buyer's Premium that other bidders pay (yes, HNAI receives that commission, but we would anyway). Any consignor may specifically request that HRCG not bid on that consignor's material, and we will gladly comply. But I don't recommend it as more bidders usually mean higher prices.

 

We all love coins and are in this business for the long term. If we did not run an honest auction, we know that word would get around and we would not survive very long in this business. Furthermore, we would not have the high quality staff that we do, many of whom have been here 10-20 years or longer, and all of whom I believe to be extremely ethical people.

 

We know that bidding and consigning to Heritage remains solely at your option, and that we must earn your trust and your business every day. While we need you, you don't need us. We try hard never to forget that. I can assure you that our customer base that has been with us for decades has confidence in our integrity as an auction house. However, integrity isn't something you can declare, but something that can only be exhibited over time. I hope that you will give us the chance to prove this virtue to each of you personally.

 

Sincerely,

Greg Rohan

 

Gregory J. Rohan

President

Heritage Capital Corporation

 

Heritage Rare Coin Galleries

Heritage Numismatic Auctions, Inc.

Heritage World Coin Auctions

Currency Auctions of America

Heritage Comics & Movie Poster Auctions

 

100 Highland Park Village

Heritage Plaza, 2nd floor

Dallas, Texas 75205

 

1-800-872-6467

Private Fax: 214-528-2596

Email; Rohan@HeritageCoin.com

===

World's Largest Collectibles Dealer and Auctioneer

===

Are you missing the best coin, currency & comic deals?

Join http://www.HeritageCoin.com today!

Over 70,000 members and growing fast.

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
Posted

Quite a first post, Greg... Frankly, I'm surprised that you responded. Surprised, not because I feel that you're indifferent to the comments of your client base. Rather, I just think an Internet forum can get too cacophonous for a rational assessment of a touchy policy issue.

 

The board membership here like the feeling of being noticed and heard, and occasionally don't consider the busy schedule of the target of our comments.

 

EVP

 

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jtryka

jtryka

Posted
Posted

Thanks for taking time to respond Mr. Rohan! Much better than a lot of posts I've seen from some Presidents/CEOs!

 

PS-I have been a customer for a while, but unfortunately you've been doing too good a job for your sellers, as lately I haven't seen the bargains I used to!

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New_Horizons

New_Horizons

Posted
Posted

1. EVP--

I'm confused. Your earlier post states that you did! receive an e-mail, then--

later in your message-- you say you didn't... which is it???

2. Mr. Rohan--

a polite-- and humble-- thank-you!, for taking the time and effort to post on the NGC forum!!! It was good of you to set the record straight, regarding the 'issue'

of Heritage bidding on auctions.

3. MY ISSUE WITH HERITAGE--

I sent a private e-mail to Heritage a full THREE business days ago, regarding a VERY! grevious-- and unethical-- issue. There are legal, and-- quite

possibly-- damaging ramifications!!! How is it that Heritage would choose to ignore my! private e-mail, skirting the serious issue, yet respond-- timely?!-- to a public forum, all of which is 'old news'...???

Know, too, that I have been a bidder in Heritage auctions for quite some time now. I have won-- and lost-- internet-only auction lots, and have been pleased with their service.

Busy-- or not-- the issue remains. mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
Posted

I'm confused. Your earlier post states that you did! receive an e-mail, then--

later in your message-- you say you didn't... which is it???

 

I only recently heard back from Greg on this issue today. I have known Greg Rohan for a few years, and have corresponded with him on a number of occasions in the past.

 

My earlier reference to having received email from Greg is about an unrelated matter in days long since past.

 

Regards,

 

EVP

 

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New_Horizons

New_Horizons

Posted
Posted

EVP--

my apologies, should my post have offended you. As 'I' read the post, I took it to mean you had-- as a result of this forum thread-- received a reply, not that you had communicated in the past...

Regardless, it speaks ill of Heritage to not! respond to my private e-mail. In particular, when they were e-mailed TWICE!, concerning the issue!!! From MY! standpoint, it goes even further!, when they can reply 'publicly' to "old news", yet NOT! take the time to reply to me, regarding the issue!!! mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif

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Chippewa

Chippewa

Posted
Posted

Greg

 

I would not have a problem with your position except for one major factor. That is that you know what the highest internet/mail bid is before you get started. That is an advantage that no other bidder has. Therefore, you have the opportunity to rig the auction.

 

Also, any price you pay in an auction should never be shown as a price realized in your auction archives (I hope you do not do this already since doing so would be absolutely crooked in my view)

 

Do not get me wrong, I buy from Heritage regularly. However, this is a troubling topic.

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
Posted

Chippewa,

 

I don't fully understand the basis of your position, but that may be due to my wooziness from a bout of sinus congestion that makes me feel my head is about to explode.

 

In any case, would you mind concocting a scenario that can result in unethical practices? An example, even a made up one, may help my understanding.

 

Regards,

 

EVP

 

PS I should come out on record as saying that I've always considered Heritage's auction department to be the most ethical -- even above B&M, whom I like very much!

 

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gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
Posted

I would not have a problem with your position except for one major factor. That is that you know what the highest internet/mail bid is before you get started. That is an advantage that no other bidder has. Therefore, you have the opportunity to rig the auction.

 

This topic has come up before on the other forums. I am almost positive that the Heritage "bidders" do NOT know what the other bids are and it would be illegal for them to.

 

Also, G.R. said: "Heritage Rare Coin Galleries bids are entered prior to the start of the sale and compete equally with all other bids." which I interpret as the bids are entered into the system before any other bids are. Therefore, the bidders don't know what the other bids since there are no other bids at the time.

 

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Chippewa

Chippewa

Posted
Posted

EVP

 

Two examples.

 

First, if I am an internet bidder with a bid of say $10,000 (before the juice) in on a very special coin and the floor bidding stalls at say $8,000, if you have a Heritage bidder step in and keep going (knowing that there is a $10,000 bid in and with no real desire to win the coin), they can easily suck every last dime of your $10,000 bid out of you. I would put this into the category of outright theft (not that I know this ever happens). All I am saying is that it is possible when these types of conflicts of interest exist.

 

Second, if Heritage were to put an extremely rare coin that they own into auction and then buy that coin from their own auction at an inflated price, they could then reoffer it six months later in another auction (which seems to happen a lot) and their auction archives will show that the last transaction on that coin occurred at an inflated price. In other words, these conflicts of interest also create the possibility of shill bidding.

 

Again, this is not an accusation, just a possibly paranoid discusion of the things that can happen when people can bid in their own auctions. It is just a bad idea.

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
Posted

Chippewa,

 

Thanks for the two examples. It is much clearer now. I have heard that a major east coast auction and numismatic house is guilty of #1.

 

And, a major west coast auction house has done something very similar to #2 for their retail sibling unit. I can't say if this company will indicate in their records that the coin has sold -- I think not.

 

Just for the record, I have no proof of any of this, and I readily admit that there is a fine line between ethics and legality.

 

EVP

 

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