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My latest bust half acquisition

25 posts in this topic

Well, it's not as nice as I was hoping, but it wasn't a terribly spendy coin, so I might have overpaid by $25 or so. It was pretty well polished at some point, but has retoned, so either it was polished a long time ago, or it was artificially retoned. The seller graded it F, but I put it at VG, net G with my novice grading skills, but maybe I am too harsh. Here's some pics of it (1837):

1837obv.jpg1837rev.jpg

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Since I had the camera out, I thought I'd share pics of the other two I have laying around the house, the first is an 1823, broken-3 variety (no, I don't have my Overton book yet, so don't ask the specific variety!) and the second is a nice 1839, that has altered surfaces (whatever that means) but isn't nearly as bad as some of the cleaned/altered coins I've seen.

1823obv.jpg

1823rev.jpg

1839obv.jpg

1839rev.jpg

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These are nice, Jeff. I don't particularly care for the obv used on the RE coins; I wished they had left the obv alone and just used the new collar.

 

I do, however, like the new rev. Very similar to the ones used with the Seated halves...

 

EVP

 

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I agree on the obverse, and the reverse is a lot cleaner, but I think I like the motto on the reverse. I do like the 1837 with the 50 cents better than the Half Dol. on the 38 and 39. My 1837 does seem to have an interesting die break on the reverse, at first I thought it was a scratch, but it appears to be a die break when viewed under magnification.

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That die break should be a key diag for the exact die state as well as the die marriage.

 

It's really too bad that Overton didn't decide to use the concept of a ``re-marriage'' like the founders of the JRCS did. I wonder if Dr. Peterson did that... (I have his book, and really should read it!)

 

EVP

 

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Jeff,

 

Interesting bust halves. Did you purchase them from local coin shops? Occasionally you can find some nice bust halves from Seattle area coin dealers, I have bought a dozen or so unattributed R.4's bust halves locally the past few years.

Mark Entman of B.U.S.T. Coinage (Better U.S. Type) will be at the Boeing coin show this weekend in Kent, he is the only bust specialist in Washington state and is very knowledgeable on bust coins, I will be at his table on Sunday at around 1:00.

 

Bill

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I planned on going on Sunday, not sure what time, but probably after church, so I might see you around 1:00. I will make a point of looking for you. As far as buying around here, I haven't had time to look at any dealers outside of shows. I bought one of those coins off eBay, one from a local dealer in Portland, and another at a show in Portland about 3 years ago.

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Yes, I like die cracks on old coins. They must tell some type of story. What kind of story can you tell about this die crack on your Bust Half ?

 

COINHOLEIO

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS

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Well Coinholio, I am sure there's a story, but I am new to the series, so I am not sure what it is. Once I get my reference books, I should be able to identify the variety, and that might tell something. It is a fairly extensive one though, and as I look at it now, it is made up of two cracks, one going from the first T in States to the S in States, and another going from the S in States to the E in America.

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Looks like a rim cud under CENTS and another die crack from the middle of the 5 to the top of the 0. Another die crack from the middle of the E through the D in UNITED and into the rim above the first S in STATES.

 

I AM COINHOLEIO

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS

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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

jtryka,

 

Just so you know, your 1823 isn't the Broken 3 variety, O-101. It's one of the normal 3 varieties.

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How can you tell that it is O-101, and what does that mean? When I bought it I was told it was the broken 3, and in looking at the lower half of the 3 it has the angled cut just like the photo of the broken 3 in the Red Book. So are there normal 3 varieties that have that same type of 3?

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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

Your coin is not O-101, which is the only Broken 3 variety. On O-101, the first star is much closer to Liberty's bust point. Also, the numeral 3 on O-101 leans to the right, and it doesn't on your coin. frown.gif

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So where is a good place to find out which variety this is? It seems somewhat disturbing that defining a variety like the 1823, which has a broken, ugly and patched 3, has so little to do with the actual digit in question. I am about to give up on this stupid series and go back to Saints, where at least the varieties make sense.

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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

The best way to find out is to submit the coin to NGC or NCS for grading and attribution. But, just this once, I'll give you a freebie. From the photos, your coin appears to be O-104, one of the several Normal 3 varieties. The rarity rating (R3) is the same as for O-101, though the latter has more appeal as a Red Book variety.

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Thanks for the input, I have some coins I need to submit, but I must admit, I am hesitant on submitting bust material since so many of these coins have been cleaned etc. It almost seems like throwing money away for a guaranteed body bag.

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Jeff,

 

I should have looked at the Red Book as well. (I just took your word for it.) The 2 is also wrong for the Broken 3 variety.

 

If you are truly interested in this series, I would suggest that go out and get the Peterson book for attribution. For general numismatic info, I'd suggest getting the 11/02 Bowers auction catalog of the Russ Logan collection. Mark Borckardt, IMO, did an excellent job making the catalog the numismatic reference that Logan would have wanted.

 

You also may want to get the latest Overton book. The condition census and rarity estimates are old, but the book is still pretty useful.

 

Finally, did you join the JRCS? Please don't respond to this if the answer is in the negative. Else, I'll have to poke myself in the eye... frown.gif

 

All this, of course, is for the do-it-yourself aspect of appreciating this series. Using NGC's or NCS's attribution service is also good even if you just want DWL to confirm your attribution efforts.

 

EVP

 

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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

jtryka,

 

There are no bodybags with NCS, unless the coins are counterfeit or altered to appear other than what they are. You'll get detail grading (UNC, XF, etc) with an explanation of the coins' problems, if any.

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Jeff,

 

I have purchased miss-attributed bust halves twice, a 1823 O-106a attributed by Northgate Coin as the "Ugly Three", and a 1833 O-101 R.1 that was attributed as O-111 R.4.

 

Attributing bust halves takes some time to learn, but makes bust half collecting challenging and interesting. Dealers often miss-attribute them, I think most of the time this is an honest, but careless, mistake. Most raw bust halves are not attributed, this gives an opportunity to cherry-pick some rare varieties. The Overton book works well for me.

 

Hope to see you this weekend at the Boeing show, I will be there with my nine year old daughter - state quarters!

 

Bill

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This just seems so complicated and anal, I have to see if it's any fun to go after these varieties. So far, it has NOT been fun! Now I am beginning to understand why so few collectors venture into this area, it seems to be a lot like doing accounting for kicks (of course, having a degree in accounting, I can almost relate to that).

 

I ordered the books, but they are out of stock, and yes EVP I sent in the form for JCRS, and you can let them know that their address line is WAY to short, so they should lengthen it, or put a second line for folks with long addresses like me. I had to write it in manually, so I hope that doesn't put them out. Though I shudder to think what things they might discover when analyzing my handwriting! shocked.gif I'll probably go to the Boeing show Sunday, but I'll probably leave my checkbook at home. Need to get a couple new Illinois quarters for the Whitman folder.

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PS-These books damn well better have large photos of each of these things so I can at least attempt to identify them correctly! Sorry I have a little angst tonight, long day at work.

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Jeff,

 

Take it easy, my good man. If it's of any consolation to you whatsoever, I have a hard time attributing the Overton varieties too -- at least based on the Overton book. Dr. Peterson's book, supposedly, is much better for that. I haven't used it yet, but will soon enough for 9 specimens just waiting for me on my desk.

 

Regards,

 

EVP

 

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The Overton book Early Half Dollar Die Varieties 1990 revision has photos af most varieties at 2x actual size, which makes attribution a lot easier. Probably the most difficult year of the series to attribute is 1827 because there are about 50 different die marriages. Take your time and be patient.

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