I am considering purchase of 1911-D $2.50 Indian

[JIM F.]

Thinking about picking up a 1911-D $2.50 Indian in MS-62. This key date seems to be going for around $10,000.

 

I am thinking that a good price (if achievable) would be around $8,000. Of course it would be a "strong D" example.

 

Bouncing this thought off the board appreciate all inputs.

 

Thank You.

 

 

 

[Coinbuf]

I really like the $2.5 series cool series but I dont follow it so I'm not up on pricing trends

[jom]

Are you familiar with the series? If not, look at a TON of examples first....not an easy series to grade. An MS62 has a real good chance of really being an AU....

 

jom

[JIM F.]

Are you familiar with the series? If not, look at a TON of examples first....not an easy series to grade. An MS62 has a real good chance of really being an AU....

 

jom

 

I have put together 2 sets of them. Starting on a 3rd set, I like to begin with the keys.

 

Frankly, the 1914 philley is very under-rated in the series so I have a small stash of these already. Don't know the "pulse" of the 11-D at this time.

 

Thank You.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I've dealt about half a dozen of them over the last couple of months, and unfortunately, $8000 will not buy a very pretty one. AU-58 is going to cost about $10K.

 

Strangely enough, although it has a low mintage and low survival rate, it's just about the only key gold coin that one can buy raw in almost complete safely once you know what to look for.

[BillJones]

I've dealt about half a dozen of them over the last couple of months, and unfortunately, $8000 will not buy a very pretty one. AU-58 is going to cost about $10K.

 

WOW!!

 

I did not realize that $8k can't buy a decent example of the 1911-D $2.50. When I was a dealer I saw some decent ones for less than that, and I saw some profoundly ugly ones for over $6,000.

 

Here's the one that is sitting in my raw set of Indian quarter eagles. It is an AU. The coin did not grade because of the area on the reverse in back of the eagle's tail between 3 and 4 o'clock. I saw it when I bought the coin back in 1987, but didn't have a cow over it because it is an AU after all. I guess I should have detected my "bovine pregnancy."

 

 

At any rate my point is perhaps you should look for a nice, true AU in an AU holder if there is such a thing. You will pay a lot less, and get, in a way, pretty much the same coin with rub on the Indian's cheekbone and on the top of the eagle's wing.

 

I think that the price of these coins has reached speculative levels, and that they are not "investments" in Mint State at these prices. That's just an opinion for what's worth, but I won't want to get involved with one of these in high grade right now.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Here's one coming up at auction: http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=131239&lotNo=24977

[jom]

I've dealt about half a dozen of them over the last couple of months, and unfortunately, $8000 will not buy a very pretty one. AU-58 is going to cost about $10K.

 

Strangely enough, although it has a low mintage and low survival rate, it's just about the only key gold coin that one can buy raw in almost complete safely once you know what to look for.

 

That just goes to show you how some of these "key" dates aren't really that rare. The 11-D $5 is FAR more scarce...not really even close.

 

jom

[Hard Times]

7,000 certified by NGC and PCGS makes this 'key date' a common coin. This is like all of the 20th century keys, big price but not uncommon. On the other hand, for $8K, one can buy a pretty spectacular southern branch mint, pre-civil war quarter eagle with less than 100 known in a high AU grade. Hmm.......

[jom]

7,000 certified by NGC and PCGS makes this 'key date' a common coin. This is like all of the 20th century keys, big price but not uncommon. On the other hand, for $8K, one can buy a pretty spectacular southern branch mint, pre-civil war quarter eagle with less than 100 known in a high AU grade. Hmm.......

 

Yep and there are many other examples of "I'd rather have" I could name.

 

1916 SLQ, 1916-D Dime etc are coins you can find in virtually any larger auction. Even in higher grades. They are only rare in that "I'll rarely ever afford one". heh

 

jom

[PerryHall]

I've dealt about half a dozen of them over the last couple of months, and unfortunately, $8000 will not buy a very pretty one. AU-58 is going to cost about $10K.

 

Strangely enough, although it has a low mintage and low survival rate, it's just about the only key gold coin that one can buy raw in almost complete safely once you know what to look for.

 

That just goes to show you how some of these "key" dates aren't really that rare. The 11-D $5 is FAR more scarce...not really even close.

 

jom

 

The Indian $2 1/2 as a collectable series is far more popular because it can be completed by collectors of average means while the Indian $5 is far less popular resulting less demand for specific date/mintmark coins.

[James_OldeTowne]

I've dealt about half a dozen of them over the last couple of months, and unfortunately, $8000 will not buy a very pretty one. AU-58 is going to cost about $10K.

 

Strangely enough, although it has a low mintage and low survival rate, it's just about the only key gold coin that one can buy raw in almost complete safely once you know what to look for.

That just goes to show you how some of these "key" dates aren't really that rare. The 11-D $5 is FAR more scarce...not really even close.

 

jom

The Indian $2 1/2 as a collectable series is far more popular because it can be completed by collectors of average means while the Indian $5 is far less popular resulting less demand for specific date/mintmark coins.

(thumbs u

 

Not only that, as I alluded above, it's the ONLY gold series that can be completely collected "raw" in relative safety. Indeed, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a a fake 1911-D, yet fakes are common for all the other far more common dates!

 

I've seen numerous complete sets in the old ultra-convenient Capital Plastics holders, but do think the series, like all gold series, should be collected via certified coins for most collectors, though.

[jom]

I've dealt about half a dozen of them over the last couple of months, and unfortunately, $8000 will not buy a very pretty one. AU-58 is going to cost about $10K.

 

Strangely enough, although it has a low mintage and low survival rate, it's just about the only key gold coin that one can buy raw in almost complete safely once you know what to look for.

 

That just goes to show you how some of these "key" dates aren't really that rare. The 11-D $5 is FAR more scarce...not really even close.

 

jom

 

The Indian $2 1/2 as a collectable series is far more popular because it can be completed by collectors of average means while the Indian $5 is far less popular resulting less demand for specific date/mintmark coins.

 

Yes, being collectable has a LOT to do with the popularity. $5 Indians are an almost impossible set to finish as many of the mintmarked coins are either really crappy or just hard to find, period.

 

And the expense of the 11-D $2.5 has a lot to do with the fact it IS a collectable set and it's the "key", although as mentioned above the 14-P is roughly the same. It's one of those "if it had a mintmark it would be worth more" kind of coins.

 

I am surprised to hear James say the 11-D hasn't been faked too much...I had thought it was just the opposite. I thought there were specific diagnostics that have been published to counter-act that such as the "wire rim" etc etc.

 

jom

[PerryHall]

I am surprised to hear James say the 11-D hasn't been faked too much...I had thought it was just the opposite. I thought there were specific diagnostics that have been published to counter-act that such as the "wire rim" etc etc.

 

jom

 

You are correct---all dates/mintmarks have been heavily counterfeited in this series. The authentic 1911-D quarter eagles have three primary diagnostics---there's a wire rim on the obverse from 12:00 to 5:00 due to a misaligned die, there are scalop shaped marks on the reverse edge at 12:00 where the edge of the die hit the collar, and there is a vertical die polish mark in the recess just to the left of the tip of the arrowheads which is visible on even heavily circulated specimens where the mintmark is no longer visible due to wear. The major grading services will grade these as the "WEAK D" variety.

 

.

[James_OldeTowne]

I am surprised to hear James say the 11-D hasn't been faked too much...I had thought it was just the opposite. I thought there were specific diagnostics that have been published to counter-act that such as the "wire rim" etc etc.

 

jom

You are correct---all dates/mintmarks have been heavily counterfeited in this series. The authentic 1911-D quarter eagles have three primary diagnostics---there's a wire rim on the obverse from 12:00 to 5:00 due to a misaligned die, there are scalop shaped marks on the reverse edge at 12:00 where the edge of the die hit the collar, and there is a vertical die polish mark in the recess just to the left of the tip of the arrowheads which is visible on even heavily circulated specimens where the mintmark is no longer visible due to wear. The major grading services will grade these as the "WEAK D" variety.

I will pay strong money for a counterfeit 1911-D right now - I have not been able to find one!!

[PerryHall]

I am surprised to hear James say the 11-D hasn't been faked too much...I had thought it was just the opposite. I thought there were specific diagnostics that have been published to counter-act that such as the "wire rim" etc etc.

 

jom

You are correct---all dates/mintmarks have been heavily counterfeited in this series. The authentic 1911-D quarter eagles have three primary diagnostics---there's a wire rim on the obverse from 12:00 to 5:00 due to a misaligned die, there are scalop shaped marks on the reverse edge at 12:00 where the edge of the die hit the collar, and there is a vertical die polish mark in the recess just to the left of the tip of the arrowheads which is visible on even heavily circulated specimens where the mintmark is no longer visible due to wear. The major grading services will grade these as the "WEAK D" variety.

I will pay strong money for a counterfeit 1911-D right now - I have not been able to find one!!

 

I've seen them in hand but I wouldn't know where to find one. It's not like coin dealers advertise counterfeit gold coins in their inventories or auction companies sell them in their auctions since they are illegal to own, Not sure why you would want one but perhaps you (or a dealer friend if you don't have access) could put a buy request on one of the coin dealer web sites but that may be against their rulles. Make sure that you say that you want it for eductional purposes.

[PerryHall]

Anyone considering buying an Indian $2 1/2 gold coin should look for one that has already been slabbed by a major grading service since this series has been heavily counterfeited. If you buy one raw, one of the diagnostics of a counterfeit to look for is tooling at the back of the Indian's neck. Because of the incused design, this is the deepest part of the design and when a counterfeit die is cast from a real coin this part of the coin frequently has a few air bubbles trapped in the recess of the coin resulting in little pimples on any coin struck from that cast die. To get rid of this defect, this part of the die is usually tooled to get rid of the depressions from the air bubbles resulting in tooling marks. In most cases you'll need at least a 10X loupe and a good light source to see the tooling which look like a series of fine parallel scratches.