I rarely think along these lines, but some generic type coins sure seem cheap!

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

A ngc cac should be the same as a pcgs cac unless cac is grading each coin differently which they shouldn't. Wish Laura would lay off the juice. Maybe she is the one in the cac suit Ankur posted a pic of?

 

I guess, in retrospect, I could have had the same reply using your talent of brevity. I will take a memo on this.

Thank You for reminding me to try not to be to longwrited...

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[MarkFeld]

A ngc cac should be the same as a pcgs cac unless cac is grading each coin differently which they shouldn't. Wish Laura would lay off the juice. Maybe she is the one in the cac suit Ankur posted a pic of?

 

I guess, in retrospect, I could have had the same reply using your talent of brevity. I will take a memo on this.

Thank You for reminding me to try not to be to longwrited...

Respectfully,

John Curlis

 

Even if all of the coins are identical (which obviously isn't the case), all it takes to affect the price/value is a difference in demand. And whether it makes sense or is justified, or not, there is often greater demand for PCGS coins.

[newprepper]

Then if a PCGS CAC s/b the same as an NGC CAC if you remove the CAC they should still be the same, Aren't they all using the same ANA guidelines? However we know that not to be the case, you can't even get 2 graders in the same building to agree 100% of the time, if that was happening then all would be equal. Look at the difference in values assigned to the same coin in the same grade by just the big 2. I don't know anything about the grading process except what little I glean off this sight. I would like an indepth explanation sometime.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

A ngc cac should be the same as a pcgs cac unless cac is grading each coin differently which they shouldn't. Wish Laura would lay off the juice. Maybe she is the one in the cac suit Ankur posted a pic of?

 

I guess, in retrospect, I could have had the same reply using your talent of brevity. I will take a memo on this.

Thank You for reminding me to try not to be to longwrited...

Respectfully,

John Curlis

 

Even if all of the coins are identical (which obviously isn't the case), all it takes to affect the price/value is a difference in demand. And whether it makes sense or is justified, or not, there is often greater demand for PCGS coins.

 

Mark, Thank You as usual.

 

But (blah, blah) the demand is skewed by the marketing failure of CAC, and possibly skewed by Legend. Their "challenge" goes unanswered, and this lends ballast to the Legend position, in that their "influence" on the numismatic community is significant, as is yours.

 

It is not a matter of justified or not. It is a matter of marketing failure because of perception.

 

Legend is a busness entity and may proceed in any manner that benefits their marketing plan, within limits of course.

 

When the method chosen to proceed misleads the numismatic community, without stated logical cause, then it is the numismatic community responsibility to ask: Why??

 

While I certainly appreciate your choice of words, the issue is not about a greater demand of PCGS coins.

 

It is about a greater demand of PCGSCAC coins over NGSCAC coins sight unseen or not, by way of exclusion by an entity in the community with significant influence. This precludes even the ability to measure the "demand" since there is no offer to offer.

 

Respectfully, of course.

 

John Curlis

 

Sorry- I forgot to be brief....

[mkman123]

John you hit it dead on. Legend certainly has a lof of influence and is well known in the numismatic community. Lets say your a uninformed person who came into a large amount of money and want to get into coins or "invest". You go to Legend and immediately your fed "don't buy NGC, buy PCGS and only PCGS CAC, etc". Your mislead right there and also there are probably those that read Legends report and immediately take whatever they say as fact. "If Legend says PCGS CAC coins are the way to go, then it must be true as they are a very large and well known dealer".

 

If Laura believes that CAC provides a good service, why would you exclude another grading company and not buy their coin? If she believes in what CAC is doing, if CAC gives a bean to a NGC coin, what makes it different that she wouldn't want to sell it or buy it?

 

 

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

TADAAAAAA!!!!!!

 

Somebody thinks I got it right!!!!

I want to thank my parents, my wife, my son, my teachers, and especially Mr. Feld for giving me this chance at Glory.

It will not be wasted.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

 

PS: Mr. Feld, note that I incorrectly typed NGCCAC as NGSCAC accidently. See what I mean about those double Cs? Gets ya every time. Harder to spell....

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[newprepper]

JC, while I agree with 123's last para, just because somebody agrees with you does not make it right. I mean, 98% of Germany voted for the 3RD Reich..........I don't know too many people today who would say that is right. ...........................now that being said, I think you are right on that point.

[DirtyGoldMan]

The goal of the CAC was not equalize PCGS and NGC grading for the entire numismatic community. It was to create a market for better quality coins.

 

Some folks favor PCGS, and others favor NGC for myriad reasons.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

JC, while I agree with 123's last para, just because somebody agrees with you does not make it right. I mean, 98% of Germany voted for the 3RD Reich..........I don't know too many people today who would say that is right. ...........................now that being said, I think you are right on that point.

 

Thatts 2....

Good to go here...I"ll take it. Its a first for me.Usually everbody just throws bricks.

 

However, I would encourage friendly observations of an opposing opinion, to give this subject the attention I believe it should have.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[newprepper]

maybe 98% agree with you mein fuhrer

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

The goal of the CAC was not equalize PCGS and NGC grading for the entire numismatic community. It was to create a market for better quality coins.

 

Some folks favor PCGS, and others favor NGC for myriad reasons.

 

Thank You DGM, as usual.

 

Unfortunately, your thoughts are not supportive or non-supportive of the questions being presented by this Thread, even though your observations may be true.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[newprepper]

The goal of the CAC was not equalize PCGS and NGC grading for the entire numismatic community. It was to create a market for better quality coins.

 

Some folks favor PCGS, and others favor NGC for myriad reasons.

 

Thank You DGM, as usual.

 

Unfortunately, your thoughts are not supportive or non-supportive of the questions being presented by this Thread, even though your observations may be true.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

 

Those darned middle of the roaders

[DirtyGoldMan]

The goal of the CAC was not equalize PCGS and NGC grading for the entire numismatic community. It was to create a market for better quality coins.

 

Some folks favor PCGS, and others favor NGC for myriad reasons.

 

Thank You DGM, as usual.

 

Unfortunately, your thoughts are not supportive or non-supportive of the questions being presented by this Thread, even though your observations may be true.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

"Laura doesn't want ngc cac saints? Why not?"

 

It answers the question of why Laura buys and sells primarily PCGS/CAC Saints that was asked earlier. All this jibber jabber and nonsense, and some folks have trouble keeping up with the conversation.

 

BTW, do you even collect coins?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

The goal of the CAC was not equalize PCGS and NGC grading for the entire numismatic community. It was to create a market for better quality coins.

 

Some folks favor PCGS, and others favor NGC for myriad reasons.

 

Thank You DGM, as usual.

 

Unfortunately, your thoughts are not supportive or non-supportive of the questions being presented by this Thread, even though your observations may be true.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

"Laura doesn't want ngc cac saints? Why not?"

 

It answers the question of why Laura buys and sells primarily PCGS/CAC Saints that was asked earlier. All this jibber jabber and nonsense, and some folks have trouble keeping up with the conversation.

 

BTW, do you even collect coins?

 

Again, Thank You.

I will consider your reply as not in agreement with the direction of the conversation.

That is certainly your Right.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[DirtyGoldMan]

The goal of the CAC was not equalize PCGS and NGC grading for the entire numismatic community. It was to create a market for better quality coins.

 

Some folks favor PCGS, and others favor NGC for myriad reasons.

 

Thank You DGM, as usual.

 

Unfortunately, your thoughts are not supportive or non-supportive of the questions being presented by this Thread, even though your observations may be true.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

"Laura doesn't want ngc cac saints? Why not?"

 

It answers the question of why Laura buys and sells primarily PCGS/CAC Saints that was asked earlier. All this jibber jabber and nonsense, and some folks have trouble keeping up with the conversation.

 

BTW, do you even collect coins?

 

Again, Thank You.

I will consider your reply as not in agreement with the direction of the conversation.

That is certainly your Right.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

Excellent. I will consider you to be the Queen of England.

 

I feel like I fell down the rabbit hole. When did Sleepy Hollow become Alice In Wonderland?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

For any offense toward you or others by my choice of words, I sincerely apologize. I am quite sure your time is of greater value than wasting it on me.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[AnkurJ]

Personally speaking, I consider NGC/CAC and PCGS/CAC coins equal. I have a number of both in my collection.

 

Ankur

[MJ]

Personally speaking, I consider NGC/CAC and PCGS/CAC coins equal. I have a number of both in my collection.

 

Ankur

 

Perhaps, but the market in general does not agree with this at this date in time. Maybe there is an arbitrage play on NGC CAC coins currently and a payoff down the road.

 

I don't know enough about most series to make a meaningful guess to the OP's question as I concentrate on only a couple of areas.

 

I'm sure Laura would buy NGC CAC 67 Saints. It just wouldn't be at $12,500. The demand for CAC Saints in PCGS plastic is greater. It's really not that complicated.

 

MJ

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Personally speaking, I consider NGC/CAC and PCGS/CAC coins equal. I have a number of both in my collection.

 

Ankur

 

Given the level of knowledge that I assume you have- certainly a lot more than me- from reading your many Posts, a couple of questions, please.

 

Did the CAC brand influence your purchase in any manner?

 

Would you offer to buy sight unseen either TPG coin with a CAC logo?

 

Does an entity with significant influence in the numismatic community that offers to buy CAC coins from only one TPG cause you to hesitate to buy a CAC branded coin from the other CAC?

 

Would the influence of the entity cause you to consider crossing over your coins to the TPG the entity favors?

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Personally speaking, I consider NGC/CAC and PCGS/CAC coins equal. I have a number of both in my collection.

 

Ankur

 

Perhaps, but the market in general does not agree with this at this date in time. Maybe there is an arbitrage play on NGC CAC coins currently and a payoff down the road.

 

I don't know enough about most series to make a meaningful guess to the OP's question as I concentrate on only a couple of areas.

 

I'm sure Laura would buy NGC CAC 67 Saints. It just wouldn't be at $12,500. The demand for CAC Saints in PCGS plastic is greater. It's really not that complicated.

 

MJ

 

Do you as a collector think that NGCCAC coins are equal to PCGSCAC coins?

 

Do you think that an entity publicly favoring only PCGSCAC coins in an offer to buy is not influencing the numismatic community?

 

Why does the market in general agree they are not equal? Is it a failure of marketing by CAC or the influence of the entity choosing one over the other?

 

Why not buy the NGC coins at the same price? If the CAC branding is trusted, the coin could always be crossed over if the business entity marketing choice is one over the other.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

 

 

[MJ]

A ngc cac should be the same as a pcgs cac unless cac is grading each coin differently which they shouldn't.

 

Why should they be? That statement actually makes zero sense to me. People vote with their wallets. That's the market.

 

The PCGS brand is stronger. It just is. They are superior marketers. Perhaps that will change one day, but not today. CAC has leveled the playing field somewhat. However, when push comes to shove PCGS coins in general sell for more. Denial could cost you money.

 

The ray of bright light is that maybe there is current added value in NGC slabbed coins and one day the tide could turn on collector preference.

 

I have both PCGS and NGC coins in my collection. In some cases whether I like it or not some of my non NGC star coins would be more valuable in PCGS plastic in the same grade and with the same green sticker. I've never tried to cross to date. I will probably be faced with the decision to do so one day.

 

MJ

[MJ]

Personally speaking, I consider NGC/CAC and PCGS/CAC coins equal. I have a number of both in my collection.

 

Ankur

 

Perhaps, but the market in general does not agree with this at this date in time. Maybe there is an arbitrage play on NGC CAC coins currently and a payoff down the road.

 

I don't know enough about most series to make a meaningful guess to the OP's question as I concentrate on only a couple of areas.

 

I'm sure Laura would buy NGC CAC 67 Saints. It just wouldn't be at $12,500. The demand for CAC Saints in PCGS plastic is greater. It's really not that complicated.

 

MJ

 

Do you as a collector think that NGCCAC coins are equal to PCGSCAC coins?

 

Do you think that an entity publicly favoring only PCGSCAC coins in an offer to buy is not influencing the numismatic community?

 

Why does the market in general agree they are not equal? Is it a failure of marketing by CAC or the influence of the entity choosing one over the other?

 

Why not buy the NGC coins at the same price? If the CAC branding is trusted, the coin could always be crossed over if the business entity marketing choice is one over the other.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

 

 

Hi John,

 

See my last post. I hope I answered your questions in my response to another poster. Just my opinions that I strongly stand behind.

 

MJ

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Thank You.

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[newprepper]

A ngc cac should be the same as a pcgs cac unless cac is grading each coin differently which they shouldn't.

 

Why should they be? That statement actually makes zero sense to me. People vote with their wallets. That's the market.

 

The PCGS brand is stronger. It just is. They are superior marketers. Perhaps that will change one day, but not today. CAC has leveled the playing field somewhat. However, when push comes to shove PCGS coins in general sell for more. Denial could cost you money.

 

The ray of bright light is that maybe there is current added value in NGC slabbed coins and one day the tide could turn on collector preference.

 

I have both PCGS and NGC coins in my collection. In some cases whether I like it or not some of my non NGC star coins would be more valuable in PCGS plastic in the same grade and with the same green sticker. I've never tried to cross to date. I will probably be faced with the decision to do so one day.

 

MJ

 

Marketing should have zero influence on grading, if both companies graded according to the same standard, they would be of equal stature, then if you want to have 1 over the other, let your wallet decide, thats like saying motrin is better than ibuprofen, they are the same chemically, motrin is a brand name, the same as pcgs and ngc, how they market decides who looks for their graded coins. does not mean 1 is better than the other, just that 1 costs more. same coin theoretically, 1 costs more, you decide

[MJ]

A ngc cac should be the same as a pcgs cac unless cac is grading each coin differently which they shouldn't.

 

Why should they be? That statement actually makes zero sense to me. People vote with their wallets. That's the market.

 

The PCGS brand is stronger. It just is. They are superior marketers. Perhaps that will change one day, but not today. CAC has leveled the playing field somewhat. However, when push comes to shove PCGS coins in general sell for more. Denial could cost you money.

 

The ray of bright light is that maybe there is current added value in NGC slabbed coins and one day the tide could turn on collector preference.

 

I have both PCGS and NGC coins in my collection. In some cases whether I like it or not some of my non NGC star coins would be more valuable in PCGS plastic in the same grade and with the same green sticker. I've never tried to cross to date. I will probably be faced with the decision to do so one day.

 

MJ

 

Marketing should have zero influence on grading, if both companies graded according to the same standard, they would be of equal stature, then if you want to have 1 over the other, let your wallet decide, thats like saying motrin is better than ibuprofen, they are the same chemically, motrin is a brand name, the same as pcgs and ngc, how they market decides who looks for their graded coins. does not mean 1 is better than the other, just that 1 costs more. same coin theoretically, 1 costs more, you decide

 

True, but who said marketing had influence on grading? Certainly not me who you quoted. Perception is reality in many cases. MJ

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

A ngc cac should be the same as a pcgs cac unless cac is grading each coin differently which they shouldn't.

 

Why should they be? That statement actually makes zero sense to me. People vote with their wallets. That's the market.

 

The PCGS brand is stronger. It just is. They are superior marketers. Perhaps that will change one day, but not today. CAC has leveled the playing field somewhat. However, when push comes to shove PCGS coins in general sell for more. Denial could cost you money.

 

The ray of bright light is that maybe there is current added value in NGC slabbed coins and one day the tide could turn on collector preference.

 

I have both PCGS and NGC coins in my collection. In some cases whether I like it or not some of my non NGC star coins would be more valuable in PCGS plastic in the same grade and with the same green sticker. I've never tried to cross to date. I will probably be faced with the decision to do so one day.

 

MJ

 

Marketing should have zero influence on grading, if both companies graded according to the same standard, they would be of equal stature, then if you want to have 1 over the other, let your wallet decide, thats like saying motrin is better than ibuprofen, they are the same chemically, motrin is a brand name, the same as pcgs and ngc, how they market decides who looks for their graded coins. does not mean 1 is better than the other, just that 1 costs more. same coin theoretically, 1 costs more, you decide

 

True, but who said marketing had influence on grading? Certainly not me who you quoted. Perception is reality in many cases. MJ

 

Good Evening MJ.

 

I think I understand your comments, and although not directed at me, I would like to offer an opinion.

 

The very fact that an entity publicly declares to the numismatic community that it will buy only 1 TPGs' CAC coin and not the other TPGs' CAC coin, is most certainly influence on grading via marketing. In fact the only purpose for doing so would be marketing, especially when the entity representative is listed as an expert member for the preferred TPG on its website.

 

I think what newprepper was attempting to connect was your observations about marketing preference of a TPG regardless of the CAC logo, even though the CAC logo is supposed to convey an equal playing ground of grading quality.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

 

[MJ]

Evening John

 

I hear you and NP. However, I just wanted to distance myself away from the quoted reply as I don't conditionally agree with it.

 

As far as that entity is concerned it is only a business decision.It's not a slight or declaration. It just is what it is. Laura/George have want lists for PCGS 67 CAC Saints and could probably place them 10 fold. That is what her customers want. She doesn't have the same demand for CAC NGC 67 Saints apparently. Therefore she will pay more for PCGS coins since her customers will as well. Legend is part owner in CAC so her bid is just a reflection of market conditions. Some irony to spice up the thread.

 

MJ

[jom]

I'm sure the value of PCGS coins are greater whether or not it has been CAC'd...that's just the way it is.

 

HOWEVER, if I were going to lay down 12 grand for an MS67 Saint I'd should be paying FAR more attention to the coin itself than who or what slabbed it or who slapped sticker on it. In fact, I'd better be damn sure exactly what constitutes an MS67 within the series and not depend on what some grading company says regardless of how good their "marketing" is. Hell, for $12K I'd better sure I really LIKED the coin....I mean REALLY LIKE IT....LOVE IT in fact....again, regardless of what slab it's in. At that point who the hell cares what some "straw man" fictitious Saint will sell for in an NGC holder vs. PCGS? I mean, would you really be worrying about such if you were buying a house?

 

Too many times I have ignored this and gotten burned. Either not knowing what to look for in any particular series or not knowing how to grade or not knowing how to value a coin (special toning or exception eye-appeal or whatever) within the series. You can still pay too much even if you can get the grade right (something I have a particular problem with).

 

The bottom line is that if I don't understand what an MS67 Saint is or what it looks like then I no business buying one in the first place regardless of who graded it.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

Personally speaking, I consider NGC/CAC and PCGS/CAC coins equal. I have a number of both in my collection.

 

Ankur

 

Perhaps, but the market in general does not agree with this at this date in time. Maybe there is an arbitrage play on NGC CAC coins currently and a payoff down the road.

 

I don't know enough about most series to make a meaningful guess to the OP's question as I concentrate on only a couple of areas.

 

I'm sure Laura would buy NGC CAC 67 Saints. It just wouldn't be at $12,500. The demand for CAC Saints in PCGS plastic is greater. It's really not that complicated.

All the more reason why an astute buyer like Ankur would willingly purchases ones in NGC holders. I will always, gladly, pay less for one of two equivalent coins, if the holder is the only difference.

[newprepper]

When 123 said an NGC CAC s/b the same as a PCGS CAC I'm sure he was meaning equal grade etc, this should be true, assuming that the TPG's are using the same standards, now if they are not, we as the buying public should be aware of that because it will change our buying decisions, I agree people vote with their wallets. However that does not make any one product superior to another. From your statement that perception is reality, NGC is an inferior product compared to PCGS. All because of MARKETING?