Give Me Your Opinions (Please, Including PCGS-Lurkers) On These Two Coins

[TomB]

I wrote the title that way because I know a heck of a lot of people read this site without posting on it. There are a variety of reasons and all are valid. So, to try to flush some of you out for a bit, what do you think the grades on these two coins are? They have both had their images, and designated grades, placed on the web before, but I don't want junior sleuths here, I just want your numismatic opinions. No cheating. One note is that I am not an expert on WLHs so you might be able to teach all of us something.

 

This is a 1921

 

This is a 1921-S

 

By the way, the coins in-hand look more or less exactly like the images suggest they do, at least on my computer this is the case.

[truthteller]

1921

 

Full rounded Liberty breast classifies it at least a VF30, but the reverse is strong, clean and eagle has well defined feathers on right and left top wings. Liberty's face is not well defined, but the date is an important consideration. If I were to buy this raw, VF35. Most likely in a slab at XF40.

 

1921S doesn't show up.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[cladking]

The '21 has enough wear to make it a VF-, but is still an extremely choice specimen. It has bad centering but in this grade that's not so important. I'd call it solid VF or VF+.

[ldhair]

I think it's a nice honest VF something.

Folks would probably pay EF money to have it.

I think it's better looking than most, for it's grade.

[TomB]

Sorry about the initial goof up in the bottom image! Nothing like inviting people over and then screwing up!

[Hoot]

Circulated Walkers are definitely not my specialty, but I love 'em no less!

 

I'd say the '21 is a VF30 coin. Great details and a remarkably mark-free surface. Sweet coin.

 

The '21-S looks about F12 or 15 to me, simply due to the loss of detail on the high points. What's a bit disturbing is that there's a lot of detail elsewhere, so perhaps the high-point lack of detail began with a weak strike. I dunno. But what I DO know is that it's a great looking piece.

 

Hoot

[DaveG]

From what I can see in my monitor and according to Bruce Fox's book, I'd say that the 21 is either VF-20 or VF-30 (it's a bit hard to tell if Liberty's left breast is fully outlined or if there's a weak spot); and the 21-S is a F-15.

 

However, from what I've seen from dealers who offer earlier Walkers, I wouldn't be surprised if the 21 is called a VF-30 or XF-40 and the 21-S is called a VF-20!

 

(which could be why I buy so few of the earlier Walkers I see!)

[EVillageProwler]

I'm in agreement w/ Hoot on both grades.

 

EVP

[gmarguli]

1921 I'd call a VF30. A nice original looking coin.

 

The 1921-S I think would probably go VF25.

[truthteller]

The 21S is does not have the full split breast on Liberty which is a requirement to be VF20. I grade it raw as a F12. However, the grading services sometimes give a nudge for the date, so, if slabbed a VF20. BTW, I had an identical 21S which I purchased raw. I sent it in for grading with a group of CH BU Barber Halves. The Barbers came back MS63-64, the 21S came back VG8. I cracked it out at a show and sold it as a VF20 to a dealer who specializes in Walkers.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[Here]

The only thing I know to call them is circulated. At least I'm right on this one. Jerry

[cdan-migration]

top one vf-25,bottom one f-15,only because they are key coins and they tend to be extra hard on these

[berylcoin-migration]

Without regard to date specific characteristics (about which I'm mostly clueless) I'd grade the first coin VF25 and the second F12. Both also appear to be to have choice surfaces, but I especially like the darker, contrasting look of the '21-P.

 

On the 1921 the breast appears fully outlined, and most remaining detail (skirt, legs, head, etc) seems consistent with a choice VF grade. The reverse looks to have VF 30 peripheral details but is a bit weak from breast to thigh. I would expect it to be graded at least VF30 by any TPG or dealer.

 

There is just a lot of flat space on the '21-S. The head, breast, skirt, and both legs seem to fall well short of VF, as do the head, wings, etc. on the reverse. Oddly, though, it is comparable to the 21-P from breast to thigh.

 

Now, learn me where I done wrong.

 

BC

[chinook]

vf-25

f-12

 

But like others this is not my speciality and I am not familiar with the stike characteristics of the dates.

[classicalman-migration]

VF-

F

 

JMHO

[TomB]

Thank you everyone for the replies, they have been terrific. I will post information on the coins tomorrow so as to let additional people see this.

[jom]

Those look like very nice examples of those tough dates. Grades? I haven't a clue as I almost never collect circulated coinage.

 

I'd be interested in the answers however.

 

jom

[braddick]

VF35 and VF20. Pretty coins as to originality and hard, dove gray, unmolested surfaces. Definitely worth a premium, and, certainly NOT to hijack your thread- but two classic examples of why NGC should allow the STAR rating on circulated coins!

[TomB]

Thanks, Pat, and don't worry, I didn't think there was any hijacking infered. I also agree with you that if the star rating is to be employed then it would be advantageous to have it employed over a larger range of grades than it currently is. After all, there aren't many star coins to begin with and they are only given out for the top fraction of coins within a grade range, so it wouldn't be as if the market would be flooded with them.

[James_OldeTowne]

My humble opinions are:

 

VF-35

 

VF-20

 

respectively.

 

Both coins are really nice - I'd buy them in a heartbeat!

 

Just for the heck of it, HERE's a coin (1921-S) that I grade F-15.

 

James

[XpipedreamR]

Geez...I was thinking more like VF20 and VG10...maybe F12

[spy88]

Breasts.......thighs.............legs............wings..........

 

Pass the gravy, please!

 

Don't know diddly-squat about grading Walkers, so agree with everyone elses assessments.

[goose3]

I love them both. You still have my address, right TOM?

 

My first thoughts when intially seeing them and before reading any comments were

 

high end VF and

 

 

High end F and possibly low end VF

 

 

Killer coins!

[reid1836]

Very nice coins !

The 1921 I`d have to say is in the vf-30 to 35 range leaning more towards the 35.

The 1921-S I`d have to say is in the f-15 to vf -20 range . If the obverse had a bit stronger detail to the head region I`d say a solid-20 . But, because of the wear there . I would rather err on the conservative side and go with f-15.

Still a very nice pair though !

[bigd5]

Top coin slabs xf, bottom coin slabs vf.

 

 

The services tend to bump early Walkers, especially these dates.

 

I may be being a bit generous in many people's eyes, but even if these slabbed a bit lower than my guess, they will sell for a premium because of their original look.

 

You dragged this semi-lurker out of the woodwork

[TomB]

Howdy everyone and thanks for taking the time to check out the coins. I'm also glad we were able to get some of those lurkers out into the light! I also have to thank you all for the uniformly kind words about these coins, they are truly nice, and have to thank braddick for sticking to his initial guess on the 1921 since I know he is aware of its slabbed grade.

 

In the initial post for this thread I believe I wrote that the coins in-hand look quite similar to their images. Well, this is true overall however, I have noticed that the 1921-S appears a little less detailed in the image than it actually is. The eagle's wings have more detail than is obvious from the image and Ms. Liberty's breast is outlined and her dress has more stripes visible than is apparent. This would no doubt cause the grades to be adjusted upward somewhat.

 

So, what do they both grade?

 

1921 VF25

1921-S VF25

 

Kind of a shocker, isn't it? Even taking into consideration the minimal additional meat on the 1921-S, it cannot hold a candle to the 1921. Both coins are certified by one of the "big three" and both are choice, original, unmolested pieces.

 

The 1921 was bought at the now-defunct East Coast Expo in September, 1995 and this piece is not an example of changing grade ranges or gradeflation. I write that it is not an example of this because when I bought the coin everyone who saw it thought it was a VF35. This was nine years ago. The coin would likely re-slab as a VF35 and deserved to be a VF35 when first submitted. It was bought for about $200 over VF bid and bid on this coin hasn't moved up much in the nine years I have owned it so I am likely still into the coin for more than bid. Of course, on a piece like this, that isn't an issue. Once, when I needed the money and was taking a table at a show, probably three years ago, I offered this coin for sale. Everyone wanted it, everyone thought it at least VF30 and no one wanted to pay over bid! The joke is on them as I kept the coin and will not offer it in the near future.

 

The 1921-S is another coin that is about $200 over VF bid, even though I think that the VF25 designation is generous for the piece. At first glance I think the coin is a high end F15 to VF20, but these pre-1923 WLHs are a different animal than their post-1921 cousins. If this were a 1943-S then the coin would never get graded VF20, let alone VF25. George T Morgan of Morgan dollar fame did some touching up of the design for this piece in 1916 and 1917 in order to bring out the details better on Ms Liberty. The fact that high points in the design are directly opposite each other on this coin made his efforts weak and, through the 1921 issues, the coins have weak elements on the obverse. In 1923 the skirt lines were re-done and so for later issues there is much more detail here. The VF25 grade does not really bother me as the coin was given the extra boost from VF20 because it is completely original and perfect for the grade. Had it been graded a VF20* would have been the perfect level for this.

 

I'm not certain what the moral of this story is other than these are both key date coins, both completely original, problem-free and very attractive, from the same series and year, with roughly the same striking characteristics and both have the same oddball grade of VF25 yet they look remarkably different. In my opinion, the 1921-S is "maxed out" in that I can't imagine the coin ever moving into VF30 territory while I can imagine it falling to VF20. In contrast, the 1921 is vastly undergraded and would easily shoot directly to VF35, with some aggressive dealers trying to hype it as a shot EF40. I guess there just might be a moral afterall and that would be to buy the coin and not the holder as not all coins graded with the same grade are equivalent.

 

Thanks, all!

[Hoot]

Great suspense and a great answer to the obvious question! Thanks Tom.

 

Hoot

[chinook]

Great thread Tom. We need more like this on these boards.

[goose3]

wow!

the results are definitely a surprise, at least to me.

[pontiacinf-migration]

Hiya Tom!

 

by the way I do not lurk

 

nice walkers, thats my opinion

 

 

carry on