Ebay Buyer Protection - Yeah Right!

[Crazy Mtn Coins]

First off I am not new to eBay, having a buy/sell 100% positive feedback over 600. However, I have never had to use the so-called eBay Buyer Protection. A couple weeks ago I purchased an ungraded GSA Morgan 1878-cc for $662. The seller was advertising it as MS65 or higher. I was skeptical of that and the photos were not the greatest, however, I thought if the coin even graded MS64 I would be happy and set a price limit of what I purchased it for. I received the coin and it was in my opinion MS61. I contacted the seller who did not allow returns (surprise!) and he felt that the coin positively would grade MS65. Numismedia lists the MS65 at $5,750. So I filed a case with eBay on the Buyer Protection. About ten days later (this afternoon) I get a response from a case manager named Trevor. He tells me I need to submit the coin to PCGS for grading to determine if the coin is MS65 and report back to him by Wed. Huh? Forget for a moment the timing and the cost, if I submit the coin and it comes back MS65 the buyer wins the case (and I cry all way to the safe deposit box with my $5,750 coin). Otherwise, eBay MAY rule in my favor. Now I just have to get PCGS to grade my coin by Wed. If I was to have this GSA graded, which there is no way I would send this coin in, I would be sending it to NGC so that it would not have to be cracked out. I calculated a rough cost of $180 for shipping, insurance and walk through grading. So I am somehow supposed to get this done by Wed. and at my cost. Now I tried to relay these facts to Trevor and also tried to enlighten him to the fact, if the seller was really honest, don't you think if he really felt the coin was MS65 he would want to get it back (having sold for about 15% of the true value). We will see if any lights come on in his top floor, however, I doubt his elevator goes that high. So much for eBay Buyer Protection. I told him also, that depending on the outcome of this case, I am cancelling my account with eBay.

[TomB]

Do you have a link to the auction. My understanding of the events is that you bid on a coin that had inferior images from a seller that stated no returns and then when you received the coin you wanted to return it. Is that correct?

[Crazy Mtn Coins]

No I don't have a link to the coin, however, your assumptions are correct.

[TomB]

Might this be the listing? If so, you are correct that the images are not the best, but I would have guessed higher than MS61 from the provided images. Regardless, I have not seen the coin in-hand.

[bochiman]

Poor image quality, cheek looks like it has some hits, area in front of nose looks like some hits, smear under the chin could be hiding many hits.

 

On the reverse, too many pixelated areas to even consider.

 

With pictures like those, I wouldn't gamble more than $200 on that coin, without a return privilege, and that would still be a gamble.

 

Seller shouldn't be putting a PCGS MS65 in the auction pictures, imho, nor should they be quoting a grade and a price for the grade.

 

All signs that I wouldn't go for a coin from a seller like that.

 

I would have SNAD it, but I wouldn't have bid like that in the first place.

Something about "no Santa Claus in numismatics" and such.

 

Good luck

[Crazy Mtn Coins]

Yes, that is the coin. The photos do not show the scratches or wear very well. In the field in front of the face, there are numerous scratches or wear extending from the lowest star up to the beginning of the hair. In the back of the head field, there are similar marks. Above the hat there is a scratch about 3/8 inch long. The face has considerable wear with some very deep scratches on the lowest part of the jaw. The reverse has marks in the fields by either side of the wings. All in all I cannot see this coin making MS62.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Ebay buyer protection can only go so far to protect you from yourself. I agree that the seller should not have posted the photo of the PCGS MS-65 coin, as a comp, but there are enough warning signs in the listing that would have kept most people from bidding--not the least of which was the "no returns" policy.

 

Did you really think that you were going to get a $1500+ coin for $600?

[Crazy Mtn Coins]

I guess I am not as wise as you on the warning signs of dis-honest sellers. I was hoping that maybe this coin would be a MS64 which Numismedia lists as $960. Most items I have seen purchased on eBay actually sell for 10 - 15% less than Numismedia prices, so that would be $800+. But more that anything I was assuming eBay Buyer Protection meant something for the buyer, but I stand corrected. So eBay Buyer Protection only goes so far?

[RWB]

I'm still trying to sort out the problem.....Did not the buyer take a chance that a coin presented with bad images and no return privilege was, in fact, something "better" than illustrated? Is the buyer now asking that his gamble be rescinded because the coin was not as the buyer imagined? Seems as though the buyer took a chance on a mostly “sight-unseen” coin and was wrong.

 

It appears as if buyer wishes to be “protected” from the buyer’s own poor judgment and errors.

 

…or am I reading this incorrectly?

 

[coinman_23885]

I agree with what has been posted so far, but will add that I can see enough chatter, even through the crumby photos, to see that it is unlikely that the coin grades MS65 or higher. I also agree with DirtyGoldMan that there were a lot of warning signs that you missed. Even with PayPal buyer protection, I generally do not want to deal with someone who does not offer a return privilege (unless it is a bullion item).

 

With this said, something tells me that there are more details to the story that you are not telling us. PayPal is usually inclined to award the buyer a refund, almost upon demand, if you state that the item was not as described. In my several years on eBay, I have filed two claims and I won both of them with no questions asked. Have you mentioned that it is against eBay policy to place numerical grades on non-certified coins? I have heard of eBay allowing bidders to cancel transactions on this alone.

 

P.S. GSA Morgan Dollars are all supposedly uncirculated (or at least the ones in the black cases hard cases that read "uncirculated" such as the one in this auction description); thus, I am surprised that there is wear on the coin. Could it be that the coin is weakly struck? No offense, but if you cannot tell the difference between wear and a weak strike, you shouldn't be purchasing uncertified coins to begin with. Moreover, I agree with Tom B that the coin looks better (from the photos) that a MS61, but it is hard to determine without seeing the coin in hand. I also see no signs of wear, and I don't see any significant sign of weakness in the strike either. What am I missing?

[coinman_23885]

I'm still trying to sort out the problem.....Did not the buyer take a chance that a coin presented with bad images and no return privilege was, in fact, something "better" than illustrated? Is the buyer now asking that his gamble be rescinded because the coin was not as the buyer imagined? Seems as though the buyer took a chance on a mostly “sight-unseen” coin and was wrong.

 

It appears as if buyer wishes to be “protected” from the buyer’s own poor judgment and errors.

 

…or am I reading this incorrectly?

 

You are reading it correctly, and I agree with your underlying premise. Notwithstanding this consideration, I am still surprised that PayPal has not provided him with his desired remedy (presumably a return). PayPal is pretty liberal on this sort of thing.

[Dcoin]

I would use the picture of the PCGS slab to your advantage with ebay.

 

Play dumb. Tell them that you thought the picture of the slab was the coin you were getting.

[coinman_23885]

Seller shouldn't be putting a PCGS MS65 in the auction pictures, imho, nor should they be quoting a grade and a price for the grade.

 

I agree, and it is my understanding that this is expressly prohibited in eBay's Terms of Use.

 

Something about "no Santa Claus in numismatics" and such.

 

I fully agree. As they say in economics classes, there is "no free lunch."

[FishyOne]

I would use the picture of the PCGS slab to your advantage with ebay.

 

Play dumb. Tell them that you thought the picture of the slab was the coin you were getting.

 

Easy win for the Buyer here with no need to submit it to PCGS. No need to play dumb either. The seller listed an MS65 "grade" for the coin in the item details AND posted a picture of a PCGS MS65 coin! Come on, the buyer made a mistake but the listing is a SNAD with other violations as well.

 

Ask to talk to "Trevor's" supervisor. If you used a CC (and you should have), this a legit chargeback as well.

[coinman_23885]

Ask to talk to "Trevor's" supervisor. If you used a CC (and you should have), this a legit chargeback as well.

 

+1

[bochiman]

From the buyer's own post, he contacted EBAY......NOT Paypal.

A SNAD would be different, I believe, than going for "buyer's protection" as well.

 

If not for the how the seller did the auction (putting in the picture of a PCGS MS65 slabbed example, quoting prices, saying it should be MS65 or MS66, etc), then I would think the buyer should own up to the gamble, given the pictures, trying to get lucky when luck wasn't there, etc.

 

However, the seller was deception and should not be able to reap benefits, imho, by duping others.

[Mary B]

You can't list a grade on an ungraded coin in the title but it is allowed in the text. I would think it is an MS63-64 from what I see in the pictures.

[coinman_23885]

You can't list a grade on an ungraded coin in the title but it is allowed in the text. I would think it is an MS63-64 from what I see in the pictures.

 

You cannot list a numerical grade period unless the coin is PCGS, NGC, or until May 31, 2012, ANACS or ICG certified. A raw coin or any other service is treated as raw and must be sold using descriptive terms such as "BU," "uncirculated," "choice BU," etc.

[James_OldeTowne]

I guess I am not as wise as you on the warning signs of dis-honest sellers. I was hoping that maybe this coin would be a MS64 which Numismedia lists as $960. Most items I have seen purchased on eBay actually sell for 10 - 15% less than Numismedia prices, so that would be $800+. But more that anything I was assuming eBay Buyer Protection meant something for the buyer, but I stand corrected. So eBay Buyer Protection only goes so far?

The dishonesty goes both ways. If you buy something that states "no return", everything else is irrelevant. That's a SIGHT-UNSEEN transaction. How the coin actually "looks" doesn't even matter in this case. "No returns" means just that.

 

The honest thing to do as a buyer is to accept the risk that came along with the potential reward.

[murty]

RWB is right on.

The buyer took a gamble and lost!

[Crazy Mtn Coins]

This will be my last comments on this thread. I admit I took a gamble on this coin. Anytime one buys a raw coin (GSA or not) we are taking a chance. I was in the same camp as Mary B in that I was thinking MS 63-64. I figured if it was 63 I would lose maybe $100 and if it was 64 I would make about $100. However, it is below that. On another thread at one point I saw discussion where someone was talking about even if there was a no return policy, that there always was eBay Buyer Protection and negative feedback options. So that is why I tried the Buyer Protection. Won't use that again. My point was the coin is far worse than the advertised grade that eBay should recognize this, but a lesson learned. I am sure I am stuck with this coin, but I am going to submit it just to prove my point. I realize it is a waste of money and just pouring good money after bad, but I am going to do it and then post the results. I am not going to use the walk through. I have five other common date GSAs I feel will grade at least 64 so I will send it with those. Regarding the "wear", I use the term loosely meaning bag wear, marks, ticks, scratches, you name it what you want. I have graded a couple coins before, however, I am obviously not as experienced as some of the members. Not to brag, just to point out my experience, I have roughly 1500 raw BU Morgans I am going through slowly and submitting those I feel will grade at least 64 to NGC, about 10 a month. Out of 100 so far, I have agreed with NGC on 80%. I can recognize a MS61 when I see one, but if someone thinks this coin is better than I have graded it, I will gladly sell it to them. I appreciate the comments of those that have provided some support here. Now this thread for me has ended.

[JStull]

Let me clarify something about the sellers who state in their eBay listings, No Returns.

 

That means nothing.

 

eBay/PayPal's Buyer Protection always will supersede a sellers claim of No Returns.

 

From the sounds of it, you filed a claim but did not do it correctly that would favor you receiving a refund.

 

Though I agree the seller should not have inserted a picture of a PCGS slabbed Morgan graded MS65 as a comparison to the actual coin, I really don't see any claim you have with the coin.

 

There is no set standard as to what any GSA Morgan will grade, and grading is subjective and opinions on grade can and will vary from person to person, as well as TPG to TPG.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I think only NGC currently grades GSA Morgans right in the GSA holder, and place a sleeved label on the bottom of the holder with the grade, and cert. #, along with the date, mint, and denomination.

 

 

[e1cnr]

I have stopped buying from any seller that is/has mainly jewelry in product or name on eBay

 

they seem to not have a clue/lie lots about their coin holdings and are used to very big mark-ups

 

 

I would rather miss a few deals, then deal with the headaches I have received

[coinman_23885]

I guess I am not as wise as you on the warning signs of dis-honest sellers. I was hoping that maybe this coin would be a MS64 which Numismedia lists as $960. Most items I have seen purchased on eBay actually sell for 10 - 15% less than Numismedia prices, so that would be $800+. But more that anything I was assuming eBay Buyer Protection meant something for the buyer, but I stand corrected. So eBay Buyer Protection only goes so far?

The dishonesty goes both ways. If you buy something that states "no return", everything else is irrelevant. That's a SIGHT-UNSEEN transaction. How the coin actually "looks" doesn't even matter in this case. "No returns" means just that.

 

The honest thing to do as a buyer is to accept the risk that came along with the potential reward.

 

I agree generally with your premise, and I don't think that buyers should use PayPal/eBay Buyer Protection Plans to attempt to shield themselves from risk with their investments. With this said, I think the product was misrepresented given the photographs, the claims of the numerical grade, and the PCGS comparison coin; thus, I think this particular case is factually distinguishable.

 

If I were eBay, in deciding this case, I would apply the widely accepted and applied rules of contract interpretation. The plain meaning of a listing should govern, meaning that there should be no returns under normal circumstances; however, when there is a substantial fraud or misrepresentation in one party in bargaining, then the contract is voidable by the aggrieved party. Given that the pictures were intentionally misleading, the comparison coin was meant to mislead buyers, and the numerical description conveyed a representation of quality, I do think this was the issue. I think the contract would be voidable, and eBay should rule in favor of the buyer, giving him his money back. Another way to look at this would be this: the seller was selling a coin of MS65 quality, and he failed to provide a coin of comparable quality (or even close). He who commits the first breach of contract cannot later rely on that contract (i.e. the no return privilege) to shield himself from liability. Either way, the seller erred.

 

With this said, as I said previously, and as everyone has mentioned here, I do think that the buyer is partially culpable, but I don't think this is particularly relevant from a legal standpoint in this case. I would of course advise the original poster to start looking for the warning signs that we have all alluded to here.

 

[jom]

If I'm a buyer in this case I never would have bought since it stated "no returns"

 

If I'm the seller in this case I would have never listed it as "PCGS" nor would I ever say "no return".

 

You always want to suggest in these cases to do what you would do personally so there you have it. What eBay or PayPal does is really something you want to avoid because of the uncertainty and absolute guarantee you will get into some sort of dispute. It's a waste of your time and energy and money.

 

Next time: Don't buy coins that the seller has listed as no return. There are PLENTY of these coins around and plenty of auction companies and dealers around here to help.

 

jom

[copper toning]

Split the cost because you both suck

 

[Mark T]

+2

Very simple rule here – never buy a coin on EBAy that does not have a return privilege. The seller was a tool for posted a MS 65 coin as a reference , the buyer was a sucker thinking that he could get a $5000 coin for $ 662.

 

[jayman1970]

Copper Toning,You said it,but I agree!!!!!

[jom]

Split the cost because you both suck

 

+10

 

jom

[FishyOne]

"Let me clarify something about the sellers who state in their eBay listings, No Returns.

 

That means nothing.

 

eBay/PayPal's Buyer Protection always will supersede a sellers claim of No Returns."

 

 

Exactly!

 

There is no such thing on eBay as "No Returns". Again, the buyer made a mistake BUT, he can return the coin for a refund becuase it was a SNAD with other violations.

 

Even is it wasn't a SNAD, he could still get his money back - easily.