Be honest......

[mumu]

OK well you got a 10% discount because of CAC. I am assuming your thought is you would not have gotten it without the failed CAC attempt. Personally my experiences with dealers would lead me to believe that 10% from list is nothing out of he ordinary. But alas I have not bought any coins from CRO to know their history on such, consignor or not. Which leads me into the 2nd point which has now been brought forth by a second motion. Poor people wont understand CAC because we buy cheap drecky coins. So my question is, at what price level can we expect to begin to understand it? For reference I do in fact conced that the majority of my purchases are in the 50-500$ range. My largest purchases were a fraction of those stated here with an 1800$, a couple in the 1000$ range including a recent purchase of a 21 peace dollar and a few walkers in the past around that price. So would 5000$ be safe to say is the threshold? If we can define that then I will re-consider and think about the situation with that in mind. But I will also point out that you admitted not knowing the series, which leads me back to one of my few points earlier about due dilligence. Personally learning about a series I dont know is honestly at LEAST 50% of the fun when I make a newp.

[lehigh96]

OK well you got a 10% discount because of CAC. I am assuming your thought is you would not have gotten it without the failed CAC attempt. Personally my experiences with dealers would lead me to believe that 10% from list is nothing out of he ordinary. But alas I have not bought any coins from CRO to know their history on such, consignor or not. Which leads me into the 2nd point which has now been brought forth by a second motion. Poor people wont understand CAC because we buy cheap drecky coins. So my question is, at what price level can we expect to begin to understand it? For reference I do in fact conced that the majority of my purchases are in the 50-500$ range. My largest purchases were a fraction of those stated here with an 1800$, a couple in the 1000$ range including a recent purchase of a 21 peace dollar and a few walkers in the past around that price. So would 5000$ be safe to say is the threshold? If we can define that then I will re-consider and think about the situation with that in mind. But I will also point out that you admitted not knowing the series, which leads me back to one of my few points earlier about due dilligence. Personally learning about a series I dont know is honestly at LEAST 50% of the fun when I make a newp.

 

OMG, you really could not have missed my point more if you tried. Okay, one more try. Do you have a monetary threshold for buying a raw coin? If so, what is it and why?

 

BTW, I wrote this article about Lafayette Dollar die varieties before I purchased my coin.

 

Lafayette Dollar--A Numismatic Treasure

 

I knew as much as a person could possibly know about Lafayette Dollars without ever having seen one in hand. But absolutely none of my research would put me in a position to accurately grade mint state Lafayette Dollars. I would say I did my due diligence, but IMO there is no substitute for experience.

[mumu]

 

Do you have a monetary threshold for buying a raw coin? If so, what is it and why?

 

Depends on the series. There are very few that I would buy without being graded. I would look for the assistant of the TPG for any substantial purchase. I would feel comfortble buying raw morgans peace$ and walkers. Thats really about it. Oh and a few raw coins from Uruguay that I have become very familar with. All low priced coins. To put on a number on your question I will say 100$

I rely on the TPGs for authentication and grade. I am not as concerned about color validation because I do not like the stance on color and I feel I have studied it enough to take a gamble. But all of the other reasons I need the TPG are still there regardless of color.

[mumu]

I am going to read your article BTW

[mumu]

As I read your article I thought about your story. I think it shows the exact point about CAC that I am making. You liked the coin for 11,000 when you thought it would sticker. Did you like it less when it didnt? Or did you like it the same. Did you pay 10% less because you now liked it less than when you thought it would sticker? The reason for the non cac was the dark color. But clearly you liked the color whether they thought it was dark or not right?

 

I know the answer is no, you didnt like the coin less. I am sure you liked the coin just the same. I dont believe you thought the coin would upgrade so you agreed with the TPG on the 65 grade in that direction. CAC also agreed it was a 65 but did you really fear it might be 64 at any point? If you did then why not a grade review instead of CAC? Surely because the seller would NEVER agree to that. All CAC does over a grade review is insure to the seller that his coins wont be cracked out of the 64 if in fact thats what it is. Its like a safer grade review for the seller who would clearly leave it unmentioned and go for another buyer to pay 65 money. But if the coin was a 64 potential buyers would never know. Should every potential buyer of that coin had it been a 64 request the cac review? Im sure cac would love that model to pan out.

[lehigh96]

 

Do you have a monetary threshold for buying a raw coin? If so, what is it and why?

 

Depends on the series. There are very few that I would buy without being graded. I would look for the assistant of the TPG for any substantial purchase. I would feel comfortble buying raw morgans peace$ and walkers. Thats really about it. Oh and a few raw coins from Uruguay that I have become very familar with. All low priced coins. To put on a number on your question I will say 100$

I rely on the TPGs for authentication and grade. I am not as concerned about color validation because I do not like the stance on color and I feel I have studied it enough to take a gamble. But all of the other reasons I need the TPG are still there regardless of color.

 

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. You have a monetary threshold for which you need TPG assurance of the grade before you will buy the coin. I assume that your reason for this is because you don't want to lose money by purchasing either a counterfeit coin worth nothing or a lower graded coin worth a fraction of the $100+ purchase price.

 

Just as you are concerned about losing $100, people who collect much more expensive coins are also concerned about losing money and just like you they have a comfort level above which they are willing to spend money to obtain additional assurance. I used the Lafayette Dollar because it was my personal anecdote. Let's now use one that is a little closer to home for you.

 

Let's say a collector wants to buy a 1928 Peace Dollar PCGS MS65. PCGS Price Guide is listed at $4,350. Over the last year, the price spread in Heritage Auctions is $3,220-$4,312 after throwing out the low and the high. This means that those coins which are low end for the grade sell for $3,200-$3,600 (estimate) while those that are solid for the grade will achieve much closer to the $4,000 price range. Just because a coin doesn't have a CAC sticker doesn't necessarily mean that it is low end for the grade, but there is nothing wrong with a collector demanding a CAC sticker before he will pay the price that is at the high end of the range. Why? Because he does not feel comfortable risking hundreds of dollars that the coin is solid for the grade even if his personal grading experience tells him that the coin is solid for the grade. It is exactly the same thing that you do with your threshold for TPG assurance.

 

After years of gradeflation, expensive coins and especially conditional rarities are now plagued by coins that are low end for the assigned grade. All the CAC does is separate the wheat from the chaff and help collectors correctly assign values to coins with the same TPG grade but varying levels of quality.

 

 

[mumu]

 

Do you have a monetary threshold for buying a raw coin? If so, what is it and why?

 

Depends on the series. There are very few that I would buy without being graded. I would look for the assistant of the TPG for any substantial purchase. I would feel comfortble buying raw morgans peace$ and walkers. Thats really about it. Oh and a few raw coins from Uruguay that I have become very familar with. All low priced coins. To put on a number on your question I will say 100$

I rely on the TPGs for authentication and grade. I am not as concerned about color validation because I do not like the stance on color and I feel I have studied it enough to take a gamble. But all of the other reasons I need the TPG are still there regardless of color.

 

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. You have a monetary threshold for which you need TPG assurance of the grade before you will buy the coin. I assume that your reason for this is because you don't want to lose money by purchasing either a counterfeit coin worth nothing or a lower graded coin worth a fraction of the $100+ purchase price.

 

Just as you are concerned about losing $100, people who collect much more expensive coins are also concerned about losing money and just like you they have a comfort level above which they are willing to spend money to obtain additional assurance. I used the Lafayette Dollar because it was my personal anecdote. Let's now use one that is a little closer to home for you.

 

Let's say a collector wants to buy a 1928 Peace Dollar PCGS MS65. PCGS Price Guide is listed at $4,350. Over the last year, the price spread in Heritage Auctions is $3,220-$4,312 after throwing out the low and the high. This means that those coins which are low end for the grade sell for $3,200-$3,600 (estimate) while those that are solid for the grade will achieve much closer to the $4,000 price range. Just because a coin doesn't have a CAC sticker doesn't necessarily mean that it is low end for the grade, but there is nothing wrong with a collector demanding a CAC sticker before he will pay the price that is at the high end of the range. Why? Because he does not feel comfortable risking hundreds of dollars that the coin is solid for the grade even if his personal grading experience tells him that the coin is solid for the grade. It is exactly the same thing that you do with your threshold for TPG assurance.

 

After years of gradeflation, expensive coins and especially conditional rarities are now plagued by coins that are low end for the assigned grade. All the CAC does is separate the wheat from the chaff and help collectors correctly assign values to coins with the same TPG grade but varying levels of quality.

 

 

I would have no problem agreeing with most of what you say if it werent just a sticker. The TPGs offer a lot more than just the sticker. Would you agree with that? Just a sticker is not enough IMO. Especially when it has now been shown they can be removed. Add a database with the information that you just showed me on that little red sticker and then maybe we are onto something. The TPGs would do good to do something similar.

[mumu]

edit

[lehigh96]

As I read your article I thought about your story. I think it shows the exact point about CAC that I am making. You liked the coin for 11,000 when you thought it would sticker. Did you like it less when it didnt? Or did you like it the same. Did you pay 10% less because you now liked it less than when you thought it would sticker? The reason for the non cac was the dark color. But clearly you liked the color whether they thought it was dark or not right?

 

I know the answer is no, you didnt like the coin less. I am sure you liked the coin just the same. I dont believe you thought the coin would upgrade so you agreed with the TPG on the 65 grade in that direction. CAC also agreed it was a 65 but did you really fear it might be 64 at any point? If you did then why not a grade review instead of CAC? Surely because the seller would NEVER agree to that. All CAC does over a grade review is insure to the seller that his coins wont be cracked out of the 64 if in fact thats what it is. Its like a safer grade review for the seller who would clearly leave it unmentioned and go for another buyer to pay 65 money. But if the coin was a 64 potential buyers would never know. Should every potential buyer of that coin had it been a 64 request the cac review? Im sure cac would love that model to pan out.

 

When I read your posts on this subject, I really get the feeling that you don't understand gradeflation at all. I had no fear that the coin was an MS64, it was already in an MS65 holder. The problem is that gradeflation has caused huge price spreads for conditional rarities. The price difference between an MS64 & MS65 Lafayette Dollar is approximately $7K. As a result, the crackout artists look for PQ MS64 examples that they can re-submit for grading. Now lets say it costs them $100 to have the coin graded and the TPG will only grade the coin as an MS65 1 out of 10 times. At most, the crackout artist has to spend $1K to get the coin in an MS65 holder but when he finally does he turns around and makes a few thousand dollars in profit.

 

This results in more low end coins at the conditionally rare grade and the price spread for the grade grows. So now the market values an MS64 at $2,500, a low end MS65 at $6K-$8K, and the solid for the grade MS65 examples at $8K-$12K. Because my coin was one of the rare die varieties and had exceptional eye appeal, I knew that it would be valued at the high end of it's appropriate range. According to the CAC, my coin would fall into the $6K-$8K range. Therefore the most I was willing to risk was $2K when it comes time to sell.

[mumu]

As I read your article I thought about your story. I think it shows the exact point about CAC that I am making. You liked the coin for 11,000 when you thought it would sticker. Did you like it less when it didnt? Or did you like it the same. Did you pay 10% less because you now liked it less than when you thought it would sticker? The reason for the non cac was the dark color. But clearly you liked the color whether they thought it was dark or not right?

 

I know the answer is no, you didnt like the coin less. I am sure you liked the coin just the same. I dont believe you thought the coin would upgrade so you agreed with the TPG on the 65 grade in that direction. CAC also agreed it was a 65 but did you really fear it might be 64 at any point? If you did then why not a grade review instead of CAC? Surely because the seller would NEVER agree to that. All CAC does over a grade review is insure to the seller that his coins wont be cracked out of the 64 if in fact thats what it is. Its like a safer grade review for the seller who would clearly leave it unmentioned and go for another buyer to pay 65 money. But if the coin was a 64 potential buyers would never know. Should every potential buyer of that coin had it been a 64 request the cac review? Im sure cac would love that model to pan out.

 

When I read your posts on this subject, I really get the feeling that you don't understand gradeflation at all. I had no fear that the coin was an MS64, it was already in an MS65 holder. The problem is that gradeflation has caused huge price spreads for conditional rarities. The price difference between an MS64 & MS65 Lafayette Dollar is approximately $7K. As a result, the crackout artists look for PQ MS64 examples that they can re-submit for grading. Now lets say it costs them $100 to have the coin graded and the TPG will only grade the coin as an MS65 1 out of 10 times. At most, the crackout artist has to spend $1K to get the coin in an MS65 holder but when he finally does he turns around and makes a few thousand dollars in profit.

 

This results in more low end coins at the conditionally rare grade and the price spread for the grade grows. So now the market values an MS64 at $2,500, a low end MS65 at $6K-$8K, and the solid for the grade MS65 examples at $8K-$12K. Because my coin was one of the rare die varieties and had exceptional eye appeal, I knew that it would be valued at the high end of it's appropriate range. According to the CAC, my coin would fall into the $6K-$8K range. Therefore the most I was willing to risk was $2K when it comes time to sell.

 

Your scenario in this post clearly requires coins of a greater value for the scenario to play out. So that being said. A 64 coin goes in 10x and comes back a 65. Gets sent to CAC and failes. Get listed on ebay and gets 65 money a little lower than a cac sticker but much higher than 64. Wed all agree its still a 64 and cac did as well and gave no sticler. What help was CAC in helping the buyer?

 

Ok so now your answer will clearly be tha tthe buyer should have consulted cac before buying. Is this realistic? Again CAC would love this but should every purchase go thru cac? This bad 65 will go and get rejected every time(so you assume) and thus the coin will never be sold?

 

The real solution to this lies in the hands of the TPGs IMO. Or if CAC moved from sticker only to something more in depth.

[lehigh96]

As I read your article I thought about your story. I think it shows the exact point about CAC that I am making. You liked the coin for 11,000 when you thought it would sticker. Did you like it less when it didnt? Or did you like it the same. Did you pay 10% less because you now liked it less than when you thought it would sticker? The reason for the non cac was the dark color. But clearly you liked the color whether they thought it was dark or not right?

 

I know the answer is no, you didnt like the coin less. I am sure you liked the coin just the same. I dont believe you thought the coin would upgrade so you agreed with the TPG on the 65 grade in that direction. CAC also agreed it was a 65 but did you really fear it might be 64 at any point? If you did then why not a grade review instead of CAC? Surely because the seller would NEVER agree to that. All CAC does over a grade review is insure to the seller that his coins wont be cracked out of the 64 if in fact thats what it is. Its like a safer grade review for the seller who would clearly leave it unmentioned and go for another buyer to pay 65 money. But if the coin was a 64 potential buyers would never know. Should every potential buyer of that coin had it been a 64 request the cac review? Im sure cac would love that model to pan out.

 

When I read your posts on this subject, I really get the feeling that you don't understand gradeflation at all. I had no fear that the coin was an MS64, it was already in an MS65 holder. The problem is that gradeflation has caused huge price spreads for conditional rarities. The price difference between an MS64 & MS65 Lafayette Dollar is approximately $7K. As a result, the crackout artists look for PQ MS64 examples that they can re-submit for grading. Now lets say it costs them $100 to have the coin graded and the TPG will only grade the coin as an MS65 1 out of 10 times. At most, the crackout artist has to spend $1K to get the coin in an MS65 holder but when he finally does he turns around and makes a few thousand dollars in profit.

 

This results in more low end coins at the conditionally rare grade and the price spread for the grade grows. So now the market values an MS64 at $2,500, a low end MS65 at $6K-$8K, and the solid for the grade MS65 examples at $8K-$12K. Because my coin was one of the rare die varieties and had exceptional eye appeal, I knew that it would be valued at the high end of it's appropriate range. According to the CAC, my coin would fall into the $6K-$8K range. Therefore the most I was willing to risk was $2K when it comes time to sell.

 

Your scenario in this post clearly requires coins of a greater value for the scenario to play out. So that being said. A 64 coin goes in 10x and comes back a 65. Gets sent to CAC and failes. Get listed on ebay and gets 65 money a little lower than a cac sticker but much higher than 64. Wed all agree its still a 64 and cac did as well and gave no sticler. What help was CAC in helping the buyer?

 

Ok so now your answer will clearly be tha tthe buyer should have consulted cac before buying. Is this realistic? Again CAC would love this but should every purchase go thru cac? This bad 65 will go and get rejected every time(so you assume) and thus the coin will never be sold?

 

The real solution to this lies in the hands of the TPGs IMO. Or if CAC moved from sticker only to something more in depth.

 

I think the monetary threshold for the application of the CAC will vary from collector to collector but I would guess that most would have very little use for the sticker for coins valued below $500.

 

You state that we would agree that the coin is an MS64 as would the CAC. I submit to you that there are coins which fall into a realm that falls in between numerical grades. A high end (PQ) MS64 will look very much like a low end MS65. Due to the subjectivity of grading, some people will be inclined to call the coin an MS64 while others will contend the coin is an MS65. Who is right? Who is wrong? It is this inherent subjectivity in grading along with greed that led to gradeflation in the first place. Want proof? Go to the grading section of this forum and see how many threads every responder gives exactly the same grade. If you find one, let me know.

 

Nobody in this thread is calling the CAC "God" with respect to grading. We are simply stating that the CAC has become a useful tool with respect to grading and valuing higher end coins.

[dimefreak]

Okay so I broke down today and bought it. This is the dark coin I was worried about. I used CAC as a third eye for me on this coin for the first time ever. Because of the sticker I assumed the toning was not as dark and if it is than there must be some type of luster peeking through.

 

We shall see:

 

 

 

[TomB]

I'm sorry if you wrote it and I missed it, but what is the grade of the coin?

[dimefreak]

I'm sorry if you wrote it and I missed it, but what is the grade of the coin?

I didnt write it...sorry about that. Its just a common date MS64. I bought it for the toning (color) at a modest premium. I was just trying to use CAC as a gauge for what I should expect the coin to look like in hand. The picture was taking with a scanner so I would assume there is more luster in hand.

[MarkFeld]

I'm sorry if you wrote it and I missed it, but what is the grade of the coin?

I didnt write it...sorry about that. Its just a common date MS64. I bought it for the toning (color) at a modest premium. I was just trying to use CAC as a gauge for what I should expect the coin to look like in hand. The picture was taking with a scanner so I would assume there is more luster in hand.

 

If it looks no more lustrous or better in hand, I'd still be happy with it. It looks attractive to me.

[jayman1970]

I like it,I think it looks great!!!

[dimefreak]

I'm sorry if you wrote it and I missed it, but what is the grade of the coin?

I didnt write it...sorry about that. Its just a common date MS64. I bought it for the toning (color) at a modest premium. I was just trying to use CAC as a gauge for what I should expect the coin to look like in hand. The picture was taking with a scanner so I would assume there is more luster in hand.

 

If it looks no more lustrous or better in hand, I'd still be happy with it. It looks attractive to me.

 

im feeling better about the purchase already!

[dimefreak]

I like it,I think it looks great!!!

 

thanks!

[MarkFeld]

I'm sorry if you wrote it and I missed it, but what is the grade of the coin?

I didnt write it...sorry about that. Its just a common date MS64. I bought it for the toning (color) at a modest premium. I was just trying to use CAC as a gauge for what I should expect the coin to look like in hand. The picture was taking with a scanner so I would assume there is more luster in hand.

 

If it looks no more lustrous or better in hand, I'd still be happy with it. It looks attractive to me.

 

im feeling better about the purchase already!

 

Whoops - I had forgotten about your thread title "Be honest" and I was lying. I really am not impressed with the way the coin looks.Sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just kidding.

 

 

[MJ]

TomB wrote

 

---What I have seen on both the PCGS and NGC boards is what I term "internet testosterone" where many folks, some of whom are knowledgeable and some not so much, dismiss CAC as handholding that they do not require---

 

This. MJ

[coinman_23885]

ToMB wrote

 

---What I have seen on both the PCGS and NGC boards is what I term "internet testosterone" where many folks, some of whom are knowledgeable and some not so much, dismiss CAC as handholding that they do not require---

 

This. MJ

(thumbs u

 

[wheat'swheats]

And I've seen these new PCGS Secure Plus slabs. From what I understand, they boost the coins value and help detect alterations that people wouldn't really do. (If the coin is MS65 why would someone open the slab and putty the coin?) Does this thing from PCGS do the same thing a CAC label does?? Boosts the value of the coin? Maybe its another marketing idea? I know it wont matter to me at all, especially because in the Secure Plus FAQ the first question reads this

"Q: Does the laser scanning detect doctoring such as puttying more reliably than other methods? Is the technology similar to what is used for Lasik vision correction surgery (although obviously nothing is being vaporized here)?

DW: The technology uses lasers but I don't think they are anything like Lasik. They are designed to help detect coin doctoring."

 

I'm going to assume the methods are not different at all from what every other TPG uses to grade and authenticate coins.

CAC has nothing to do with Secure Plus.

 

CAC relies on the opinions of a few select graders, including John Albanese, to determine if a TPG-graded coin is PQ.

 

SecurePlus uses a fingerprinting tool to record a coin's image. It compares the image to others in its database to see if it was previously submitted and maybe screwed with. The Sniffer tool is also used, to check for the presence of artificial enhancements like Blue Ribbon or nose grease.

 

I guess you could say both CAC and SP are meant to improve a coin's value. But then, that's business.

Lance.

 

Lance has given you a good answer, but I will elaborate a little. Many are already aware that I support the idea of CAC and I will cut-and-paste an answer I have given on the PCGS and NGC boards numerous times-

 

"CAC is a tool that is available to all and, as such, it is quite similar to knowing how to use a loupe; having the knowledge to spot counterfeit pieces; understanding what manipulated and original coinage should look like or how they will likely appear; being able to interpret printed guide prices and auction results; understanding how to grade according to the ANA standards and how this grading differs from the various TPG grading standards; and learning all the options for buying and selling within the market.

 

Sadly, the vast majority of collectors ignore their study of coinage and thus are not truly numismatists. However, some folks pursue this knowledge and will happily listen to other opinions, regardless of whether or not they agree with those opinions. CAC can help all, but will help those who are willing to accept their help the most."

 

What I have seen on both the PCGS and NGC boards is what I term "internet testosterone" where many folks, some of whom are knowledgeable and some not so much, dismiss CAC as handholding that they do not require. This can be true for various people within certain series and grade ranges, but what it reminds me of more would be the initial resistance from so many in the hobby-industry at the advent of third party grading, which of course we now call NGC and PCGS. Truly, NGC and PCGS have been of great value to thousands of folks in this hobby-industry over the years and, while CAC does not perform the exact same slate of services as NGC and PCGS, there is plenty left to benefit from when one uses CAC.

 

I dont see how cac is a tool in the same way any of those others things are a tool. Cac is purely a marketing tool. Maybe you can water it down and call it a tool in the same way that a crutch is a tool. It caught on and added value to certain coins that used to be opportunties for those that have the same tools as the cac-ers(those tools you mentioned) . Unless you are stating or accepting someone elses statement that CAC knows best and trumps the TPGs, then except for undergraded gold bean old holder coins are the only place where I see a use for cac and even then all its doing again is replacing the skill of grading coins that used graders from a different standard/era.

 

Heres how cac is a tool. If a cac sticker tells you whether you like a coin or not, then you have a lot of learning to do. Id rather collect scratch and sniff stickers, they are much more fun.

 

Like I wrote above, people have various levels of expertise and also differing levels of self-awareness with respect to what they may need to know in order to be as fully educated as possible. However, to give you more information, which you are free to use or ignore as pleases you, there are certain modifications or alterations to coins that had slipped past the TPGs in previous years, but that can be spotted now by CAC. To be fair, there are, of course, others who can also spot these already certified problem coins. This is not the case for everyone, and the CAC education gained from even one or two instances in this field is quite valuable to those who are willing to learn.

 

How is putting a sticker, or not putting a sticker, doing anything to help that situation? With no explanation or details over those problems how is anyone being educated?

 

If you submit a coin and have it fail the CAC evaluation then you may get in touch with CAC and ask why the coin was rejected. Please note, I do not believe they advertise an explanation as part of their service, but I have been told by numerous collectors and dealers that CAC will do so. In my own experience, I have had a few coins fail the process and whenever I have called, and JA has had the time, he has politely let me know what his thought process had been. There have been two coins that I saw as fine, but that CAC rejected, and in both instances I think CAC was right and I believe I learned something about surface manipulation with each explanation. That is a pretty good return on the $12.50 (formerly $10) CAC evaluation fee.

 

And had JA been a little busier as you alluded, or had the submitter been someone of less prominance than yourself, say someone ignorant and drecky such as myself, that education would have never happened.

You are absolutely wrong when you made this statement. I am nothing but a collector with no influence with anyone on any aspect of coin collecting.. However, JA has taken the time to return my calls, and letters and spent time offering advise on many angles of collecting, and using CAC.. I think that it is obvious that several of you for your own reasons are anti CAC. This is fine with me and those of us that see an advantage with CAC . If you see no value of CAC or need to use them in your collecting. Great, but I do think that you will see one day that you are mistaken. Or am I mistaken in thinking that you are just someone who stirrs up problems just for the sake of stirring the pot.Being fairely new to the society, I have only see where you create discontentment and skermishes between members.what is you positive attributes other than by your own admission being cast out of the other group for trolling.

wheat

[mumu]

I have only see where you create discontentment and skermishes between members.what is you positive attributes other than by your own admission being cast out of the other group for trolling.

wheat

 

I have strong opinions that are not often in line with others. I dont back down from them unless they change. Most people dont like that and I get called nice words like ignorant and drecky. Coin forums are very cliquey.

[mumu]

When I first started collecting, I was opposed to the TPGs. Well not opposed, I just didnt like entombed coins and I thought I was going to have to pay more for the same coins. As I started reading about grading and other such factors, I quickly came around. I mean a matter of weeks into it i realized what the TPGs had to offer. It then sparked an interest I had not forseen. The ability to decide what a PQ coin was within a given grade. It was a skill I knew would take years to develop but it added a level of excitement and it actually helped to slow the anxiety of collecting in a sense. It required the patience to hold off for the right coins. CAC kinda challenges that. It gives the lazy coin hunter an advantage the leg working collector used to have over him.

 

Its like those kid sports leagues you hear about in california that give everyone a trohphy even if they lose or suck.

[MarkFeld]

When I first started collecting, I was opposed to the TPGs. Well not opposed, I just didnt like entombed coins and I thought I was going to have to pay more for the same coins. As I started reading about grading and other such factors, I quickly came around. I mean a matter of weeks into it i realized what the TPGs had to offer. It then sparked an interest I had not forseen. The ability to decide what a PQ coin was within a given grade. It was a skill I knew would take years to develop but it added a level of excitement and it actually helped to slow the anxiety of collecting in a sense. It required the patience to hold off for the right coins. CAC kinda challenges that. It gives the lazy coin hunter an advantage the leg working collector used to have over him.

 

Its like those kid sports leagues you hear about in california that give everyone a trohphy even if they lose or suck.

 

It gives the lazy coin hunter an advantage the leg working collector used to have over him

So does coin certification by the grading companies, and to a much larger extent than CAC does.

[mumu]

When I first started collecting, I was opposed to the TPGs. Well not opposed, I just didnt like entombed coins and I thought I was going to have to pay more for the same coins. As I started reading about grading and other such factors, I quickly came around. I mean a matter of weeks into it i realized what the TPGs had to offer. It then sparked an interest I had not forseen. The ability to decide what a PQ coin was within a given grade. It was a skill I knew would take years to develop but it added a level of excitement and it actually helped to slow the anxiety of collecting in a sense. It required the patience to hold off for the right coins. CAC kinda challenges that. It gives the lazy coin hunter an advantage the leg working collector used to have over him.

 

Its like those kid sports leagues you hear about in california that give everyone a trohphy even if they lose or suck.

 

It gives the lazy coin hunter an advantage the leg working collector used to have over him

So does coin certification by the grading companies, and to a much larger extent than CAC does.

 

Well the argument brought forward is that the tpgs get you in the ball park and cant be trusted. You are now arguing the opposite in a sense. I dont disagree that TPGs act in a similar way as the CAC sticker, but they give much more than just a sticker that has no details behind it, or as Ive said worse yet no details when if gets no sticker. I would see tremendously more value in a database detailing reasons why a coin didnt sticker.

[wheat'swheats]

I have only see where you create discontentment and skermishes between members.what is you positive attributes other than by your own admission being cast out of the other group for trolling.

wheat

 

I have strong opinions that are not often in line with others. I dont back down from them unless they change. Most people dont like that and I get called nice words like ignorant and drecky. Coin forums are very cliquey.

 

I realize that these forums have cliques, and I was jumped by a couple of members because I asked a simple question and made an innocent observation, BUT I have not made blanket statements which might be my opinion but are totally baselessin fact. I have no problem with your observations and opinions, and as I stated I am fairely new here and have not made any friends as of yet so all my opinions are just my own. I have however had to endure a running battle between you and another member which should have not allowed to continue the way it did. If you have a problem with someone fine , but take it private. And base your complaints on matters such as CAC on fact not just "I think". other than that I will carry on a civil difference of opinion with you all day, as long as it is fact based, and no personal attacks are made. JA has stated why they will not make a data base of the coins that will not sticker, If you will take the time to read what JA said, I think you will understand it is for your sake and mine it is not done.

Wheat

[MarkFeld]

When I first started collecting, I was opposed to the TPGs. Well not opposed, I just didnt like entombed coins and I thought I was going to have to pay more for the same coins. As I started reading about grading and other such factors, I quickly came around. I mean a matter of weeks into it i realized what the TPGs had to offer. It then sparked an interest I had not forseen. The ability to decide what a PQ coin was within a given grade. It was a skill I knew would take years to develop but it added a level of excitement and it actually helped to slow the anxiety of collecting in a sense. It required the patience to hold off for the right coins. CAC kinda challenges that. It gives the lazy coin hunter an advantage the leg working collector used to have over him.

 

Its like those kid sports leagues you hear about in california that give everyone a trohphy even if they lose or suck.

 

It gives the lazy coin hunter an advantage the leg working collector used to have over him

So does coin certification by the grading companies, and to a much larger extent than CAC does.

 

Well the argument brought forward is that the tpgs get you in the ball park and cant be trusted. You are now arguing the opposite in a sense. I dont disagree that TPGs act in a similar way as the CAC sticker, but they give much more than just a sticker that has no details behind it, or as Ive said worse yet no details when if gets no sticker. I would see tremendously more value in a database detailing reasons why a coin didnt sticker.

 

How does the TPG grade provide any more than CAC does? Each of them offers an opinion and a guarantee, and CAC additionally makes sight-unseen bids on many CAC coins.

 

The database you suggest, would be good for buyers but bad for sellers. Do you also feel that PCGS and NGC should provide databases detailing reasons why coins didn't cross?

[mumu]

When I first started collecting, I was opposed to the TPGs. Well not opposed, I just didnt like entombed coins and I thought I was going to have to pay more for the same coins. As I started reading about grading and other such factors, I quickly came around. I mean a matter of weeks into it i realized what the TPGs had to offer. It then sparked an interest I had not forseen. The ability to decide what a PQ coin was within a given grade. It was a skill I knew would take years to develop but it added a level of excitement and it actually helped to slow the anxiety of collecting in a sense. It required the patience to hold off for the right coins. CAC kinda challenges that. It gives the lazy coin hunter an advantage the leg working collector used to have over him.

 

Its like those kid sports leagues you hear about in california that give everyone a trohphy even if they lose or suck.

 

It gives the lazy coin hunter an advantage the leg working collector used to have over him

So does coin certification by the grading companies, and to a much larger extent than CAC does.

 

Well the argument brought forward is that the tpgs get you in the ball park and cant be trusted. You are now arguing the opposite in a sense. I dont disagree that TPGs act in a similar way as the CAC sticker, but they give much more than just a sticker that has no details behind it, or as Ive said worse yet no details when if gets no sticker. I would see tremendously more value in a database detailing reasons why a coin didnt sticker.

 

 

The database you suggest, would be good for buyers but bad for sellers. Do you also feel that PCGS and NGC should provide databases detailing reasons why coins didn't cross?

 

Absolutely 100%

 

(sellers are buyers of the same coins they sell at some point. We are all both the chicken and the egg at different times)

[mumu]

When I first started collecting, I was opposed to the TPGs. Well not opposed, I just didnt like entombed coins and I thought I was going to have to pay more for the same coins. As I started reading about grading and other such factors, I quickly came around. I mean a matter of weeks into it i realized what the TPGs had to offer. It then sparked an interest I had not forseen. The ability to decide what a PQ coin was within a given grade. It was a skill I knew would take years to develop but it added a level of excitement and it actually helped to slow the anxiety of collecting in a sense. It required the patience to hold off for the right coins. CAC kinda challenges that. It gives the lazy coin hunter an advantage the leg working collector used to have over him.

 

Its like those kid sports leagues you hear about in california that give everyone a trohphy even if they lose or suck.

 

It gives the lazy coin hunter an advantage the leg working collector used to have over him

So does coin certification by the grading companies, and to a much larger extent than CAC does.

 

Well the argument brought forward is that the tpgs get you in the ball park and cant be trusted. You are now arguing the opposite in a sense. I dont disagree that TPGs act in a similar way as the CAC sticker, but they give much more than just a sticker that has no details behind it, or as Ive said worse yet no details when if gets no sticker. I would see tremendously more value in a database detailing reasons why a coin didnt sticker.

 

How does the TPG grade provide any more than CAC does?

 

Would you buy raw coins with CAC stickers on them? (2x2s or flips obviously)