Another Hapsburg Thaler: Rudolf II

[JamminJ]

Hello Everyone,

 

Here’s is the newest addition to my Hapsburg thaler collection, Emperor Rudolf II, from the Hall mint:

 

Rudolf was the son of his predecessor Maximillian II and brother of his successor Mathias. He was born in Vienna 1552 and sent to Spain for his education. Upon his return he was crowned King of Hungary in 1572, and adding the titles King Bohemia and the Romans in 1575, succeeding to Emperor in 1576.

 

Rudolf was a Catholic tried and true, reversing his father’s tolerance of Protestantism and supporting the Counter Reformation. Rudolf’s reign was marked by endless wars against the Ottomans who acquired allies in revolting Hungarians in 1604. Rudolf was always subject to outs of melancholy which descended into insanity at about the same time which provoked one of the few instances of inter Hapsburg quarrels. He was declared incapable of ruling and Archduke (later Emperor) Mathias took over the affairs of state granting religious concessions to the Hungarians and making peace with the Sultan. Eventually Rudolf emerged from his torpor and began preparations for war with the Turks which was met with open defiance by Mathias. Having little support Rudolf was compelled to cede to Mathias the crowns of Hungary, Moravia and Austria. An additional attempt by Rudolf to gather support from his cause from the Bohemians and even from the hated Protestants, resulted in his complete loss of de facto power. Sensing weakness, Rudolf’s cousin Archduke Leopold invaded Rudolf’s remaining stronghold of Bohemia. Mathias also invaded, vanquishing both Leopold and Rudolf. Rudolf was imprisoned until 1612 when Mathias became emperor. As a side note Rudolf was the patron of Johannes Kepler and Tycho Brahe.

 

 

I bought this coin as a lot which did not sell from a Jean Elsen auction in Belgium. Their customer service bites: I combined my choices with a few if Greg’s and to our surprise and dismay only this coin showed up out of the five we ordered. As it stands now I probably paid a bit too much but it’s growing on me so I may change my opinion on the future. Thanks to Greg for helping facilitate the order.

 

I hope to add a Mathias to the collection next!

As always comments are welcome.

 

-JamminJ

[TJ]

Moi, je prefere coins with more open space. I find the design of thalers way too busy. Plus the history of that region is so complex! Keep it simple a la les republiques francaises!

[JamminJ]

It's such a busy coin because these guys collected titles like I collect coins. Each portion of the legend and space on the coat of arms corresponds to one of the Emperors posessions & titles.

 

Here's the most complete list of titles I can find for Rudolf II:

 

King of Hungary, Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia;

Archduke of Austria;

Duke of Burgundy, Brabant, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola;

Margrave of Moravia;

Duke of Luxemburg, the Upper & Lower Silesia, Württemberg & Teck;

Prince of Swabia,

Count of Habsburg, Tyrol, Pfirt, Kyburg, Goritia;

Landgrave of Alsace;

Margrave of the Holy Roman Empire, of Burgau, the Upper & Lower Lusatia;

Lord of the Wendish Mark, Portenau, Salins;

 

Makes for a busy coin.

-JamminJ

[gmarguli]

The reverse is a little busy, but the obverse is nicely spaced. You can find a lot of thalers with open space. Some are nice and some are really awful.

 

As for french coins, well..as a country they suck, but they do have some nice designs.

 

Here is an unusual french coin. It's a Piefort (double thickness) Essai pattern coin.

It's listed as MAZ-2749A which I have no idea what that means. I haven't found the Maz reference book. If anyone knows of one or has one, any info on this coin would be appreciated.

[TJ]

Nice looking coin there, gereg. Is that 1946? I've been wondering what "essai" means. As far as I know it comes from "essayer" meaning "to try," as in "j'essai" (I try).

[gmarguli]

Yes, it is a 1946. Essai does mean pattern.

 

It's a cool looking coin, but I prefer my MS69 Specimen 10F

 

I think it is a really cool design. I've got to get me a gold one of these!

[TJ]

That design is the same as the 50F (and probably other denominations?). How do you know it is MS69? Is it slabbed and graded as such? And what does "specimen" mean. Thx.

[gmarguli]

That design is the same as the 50F (and probably other denominations?). How do you know it is MS69? Is it slabbed and graded as such? And what does "specimen" mean. Thx.

 

It is slabbed as MS69 by NGC. It is from a Specimen set (looks kind of like the SMS sets of the US in 1965-67) - not as nice as a proof, but better than a mint set.

[TJ]

Ok

PROOF

SPECIMEN

MINT

in that order.

Totally confused.

You should take a minute or two in your replies to add some meat to your posts. Thx.

[gmarguli]

OK, france doesn't really make proof sets and they made very few proof coins except in recent years. From 1964-1990 they made Fleur de Coin (Specimen) sets which contained coins of much higher quality than business strieks, but not quite proof coins. They are similar to the US SMS.

 

Proof - double struck on highly polished dies and polished planchets.

Specimen - I don't know for sure, but I would guess single struck on polished dies and/or planchets.

Mint sets (circulation strikes) - single struck, no polished anything.

[TJ]

OK last question. US SMS = ?

[gmarguli]

OK last question. US SMS = ?

 

SMS = Special Mint Set. They were the sets produced by the mint for 1965-67. They were single struck coins from polished dies.

 

JamminJ is going to login and see a dozen replies to his thread and be really happy....until he opens it and sees it's all about french coins.

[JamminJ]

JamminJ is going to login and see a dozen replies to his thread and be really happy....until he opens it and sees it's all about french coins.

 

It was a bit disappointing but this is a pretty good thread either way. Not as good as a Hapsburg only thread with 11 replies, but still pretty good.

 

BTW, where would the Canadian prooflike sets fit into the Proof-Specimen-Regular strike heirarchy?

 

-JamminJ

[gmarguli]

BTW, where would the Canadian prooflike sets fit into the Proof-Specimen-Regular strike heirarchy?

 

I think the Canadia PL sets are very similar to the Specimen sets from france or the SMS from the US. Basically they are all better than business strikes, but worse than proofs.

[JamminJ]

I think the Canadia PL sets are very similar to the Specimen sets from france or the SMS from the US. Basically they are all better than business strikes, but worse than proofs.

 

That was my impression but am gald to have another opinion.

 

-JamminJ

[TJ]

I am glad (or "gald" for jammin speak) that France is now making proofs in that I bought a very nice proof Euro set in Paris last Spring.

[JamminJ]

I am glad (or "gald" for jammin speak) that France is now making proofs in that I bought a very nice proof Euro set in Paris last Spring.

 

 

-JamminJ

[TJ]

I am glad (or "gald" for jammin speak) that France is now making proofs in that I bought a very nice proof Euro set in Paris last Spring.

 

 

-JamminJ

I'm known to be very unforgiving in typos. Just ask gereguh!

[GDJMSP]

Well JJ ya had a good thing goin there and then that Greg guy showed up with a French coin

 

Boy the nerve - reminds me of another guy I know But I don't want to name names or anything - sheeeesh - French coins

 

I must say though JJ - it does my heart good to see you still going after those thalers. Ya were makin me nervous there for a bit with that talk about ducats

[gmarguli]

I'm known to be very unforgiving in typos. Just ask gereguh!

 

This is true. However, he is fine with posting his own grammar mistakes.

[gmarguli]

Well JJ ya had a good thing goin there and then that Greg guy showed up with a French coin

 

Boy the nerve - reminds me of another guy I know But I don't want to name names or anything - sheeeesh - French coins

 

I don't have access to any thaler photos right at the moment, that's why I went for french stuff. Besides, I have those two coins for sale on eBay right now.

[TJ]

I'm known to be very unforgiving in typos. Just ask gereguh!

 

This is true. However, he is fine with posting his own grammar mistakes.

As usual, you make no sense. Sure, I've made a "there-their" thingy from time to time. But what are you referring to, Mr. Vague-As-Usual?

[gmarguli]

I'm known to be very unforgiving in typos. Just ask gereguh!

 

This is true. However, he is fine with posting his own grammar mistakes.

As usual, you make no sense. Sure, I've made a "there-their" thingy from time to time. But what are you referring to, Mr. Vague-As-Usual?

 

in typos.

[JamminJ]

I feel like a third wheel in my own thread.

 

-JamminJ

[TJ]

I'm known to be very unforgiving in typos. Just ask gereguh!

 

This is true. However, he is fine with posting his own grammar mistakes.

As usual, you make no sense. Sure, I've made a "there-their" thingy from time to time. But what are you referring to, Mr. Vague-As-Usual?

 

in typos.

That is the weakest catch I have ever seen. OK, "OF typos".