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1882 S Toned Morgan, Grade opinions please (Update)

19 posts in this topic

I had a thread on this coin a few months ago, NGC details graded it for artificial toning. I didn't agree and sent it to Shane for a second opinion. Shane's opinion was "looks natural". So what grade do you guys give her and what do you think of the toning? I had posted horrible pictures and almost everybody agreed NT, so hopefully with Shanes pictures you can get a better look. And should I send it back in? Back to NGC or PCGS?

 

Thank's, nick

 

 

Consignments86147.jpg

 

Consignments86150.jpg

 

UPDATE= I sent it to PCGS, and came back problem free MS65!!

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A few things that may have given the graders pause. One, the toning is very simmilar on the obverse and reverse. Around the mintmark, E in ONE and D in DOLLAR there appears to be the remnants of where a liquid pooled up. Not always but, many times this date has a toning shadow on the lettering, and this does not.

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It looks like a nice MS 65 coin under that toning. I absolutely hate that NGC won't give a grade opinion on a coin they determine has been AT. They break your heart, take your money and all but force you to break the coin out of a worthless holder to sell it if you want to.

 

 

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I have one Tid-E-Bowl very similar in appearance to the obverse of yours that was deemed AT by NGC a few years ago. I sent it in for review and it was still rejected.

 

Chris

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I have one Tid-E-Bowl very similar in appearance to the obverse of yours that was deemed AT by NGC a few years ago. I sent it in for review and it was still rejected.

 

Chris

 

Do you mean Tidy House? I have a couple of those myself but none with this vibrant color.

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I have one Tid-E-Bowl very similar in appearance to the obverse of yours that was deemed AT by NGC a few years ago. I sent it in for review and it was still rejected.

 

Chris

 

Do you mean Tidy House? I have a couple of those myself but none with this vibrant color.

 

Yes, Tidy House. Tid-E-Bowl was one of their products and I picked up that nickname from Ron Sirna about 7 years ago.

 

Chris

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I'd grade the coin as a high end MS-64. The color looks okay to me, but since it's a photo, I can't say for sure. The color is certainly nicer than that you see on almost all AT coins. It has a very natural look to it.

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The E and D on the reverse are certainly weird. But the way the toning behaves on the letters and in the hair on the obverse are certainly quite natural looking. I think the coin overall is quite attractive, and would consider it at the very least Market Acceptable. I'd grade it 65.

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Judging from your pics, this is a beautifully toned Morgan Dollar. I agree with most other posting as to grade---MS65. Don't be bothered by a TPG opinion. Yes, there is some consideration to be given when a TPG says AT, but that doesn't mean it's true.

 

The TPG graders are guessing based on their grading experience and have no way of knowing the actual history of this coin. I refer you to innumerable postings regarding AT and NT coins.

 

I would be very happy to own this coin and in all honesty completely discount the AT grading opinion.

 

In my opinion, you've simply been caught up in the dynamics of TPG s attempting to establish AT definitions. Isn't it curious how no TPG clearly states the reasons for their determination? IMHO this time they got it wrong

 

Carl

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the reverse looks questionable to me. dollar and america i would think the color would get darker towards the edge from blue to purple, not blue to yellow. i dunno. tough call

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the reverse looks questionable to me. dollar and america i would think the color would get darker towards the edge from blue to purple, not blue to yellow. i dunno. tough call

 

A thorough understanding of the correct color progression on toned coins is essential for distinguishing AT vs. NT. The color progression on this coin is correct.

 

For far more information, I direct you to Sunnywood - one of the leading experts on toned coins: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=716279&highlight_key=y&keyword1=color%20progression

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It looks very good and I would not argue very strong either way

 

If I was trying to justify AT, I would use these arguments

 

1- some funny rings around a few reverse letters, possibly 'pooling'

2- no 'pull-back' seen anywhere which is seen in quick toning

3- obverse stars have a few with color popping up from field on just ends of stars

 

 

this is just from pics, and poster and graders have advantage of seeing in hand, so possibly colors are floating making AT determination easier

 

some are obvious, some are closer calls between AT and market acceptable

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2- no 'pull-back' seen anywhere which is seen in quick toning

 

The lack of pull-away toning is not useful in determining AT. The presence of pull-away toning is unique to naturally toned coins (never seen an AT coin with pull-away toning, although there are reports of such). But many, many naturally toned coins lack pull-away toning.

 

I do like how the color changes on the devices, such as the stars as you point out. This is a characteristic of natural toning. If this is an artificially toned coin, it is quite expertly done.

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A few things that may have given the graders pause. One, the toning is very simmilar on the obverse and reverse. Around the mintmark, E in ONE and D in DOLLAR there appears to be the remnants of where a liquid pooled up. Not always but, many times this date has a toning shadow on the lettering, and this does not.

Yeah.

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