Oldest MS and PR70 coins?

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but does anyone know what the oldest MS70 and PR70 coins are?

 

I remember the debacle with the 1963(?) cent that spotted in the holder, but what are the current record holders, and are there pictures of them?

 

Thanks!

[mtnstyne]

great question

[brg5658]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but does anyone know what the oldest MS70 and PR70 coins are?

 

I remember the debacle with the 1963(?) cent that spotted in the holder, but what are the current record holders, and are there pictures of them?

 

Thanks!

 

Firstly, I will assume you want to restrict to non-commemoratives and non-bullion? There are innumerable Silver Eagles and Commemoratives graded MS70.

 

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the 2003 PCGS graded cent which was given an MS70RD grade and then later was downgraded to MS69RD?

 

For MS70 grading of Lincoln Cents, there are only a handful from PCGS and NGC. They are all SMS/Satin Finish coins from 2005 and 2006. After the downgrading of the 2003 Business Strike cent by PCGS, that left no business strike MS70 cents.

 

I know there are a few MS70 Satin Finish State Quarters, and at least one MS70 Roosevelt dime. Interesting question, and I look forward to seeing replies.

 

As for proofs, I know that one of the members here (Wells?) owns a Washington quarter graded PF70CAM from 1964. It is the only PF70CAM, with only 4 PF70 no-cameo coins from the same year. I have seen Roosevelt PF70 dimes from 1974 and 1975 from PCGS, but it appears the oldest from NGC is 1976.

[Schatzy]

I don't know the whole series but for the Roosevelt's the earliest by NGC is 1976 and by PCGS is 1960.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I guessed correctly...it was the 1963 PF70 cent that brought nearly $40K.

 

So, the oldest PF70 is a '64 quarter so far.

 

I find it interesting that, given the massive amounts of roll collecting in the 50's and 60's, that there aren't more business strike 70s, at least among dimes and nickels.

 

Anybody else?

[Buffalo Head]

I find it interesting that, given the massive amounts of roll collecting in the 50's and 60's, that there aren't more business strike 70s, at least among dimes and nickels.

I too find this interesting and this is a great question. I've never really thought about tthe oldest.... ....

[Schatzy]

 

So, the oldest PF70 is a '64 quarter so far.

 

Here is the list for PCGS

1964 PF70 Cent

1963 PF70 Nickel

1960 PF70 Dime

1960 PF70 Quarter

1968-S PF70 Half-Dollar

 

Here is the list for NGC

1978-S PF70 Cent

1978-S PF70 Nickel

1976-S PF70 Dime

1964 PF70 Quarter and the next one is 1976-S

1968-S PF70 Half-Dollar and the next one is 1977-S

 

 

[BillJones]

I guessed correctly...it was the 1963 PF70 cent that brought nearly $40K.

 

 

PCGS ultimately bought that back to save themselves the embarrassment. That thing was badly spotted and worth about $10 out of the holder. In the holder the registry lemmings were bidding it up to $40k.

[brg5658]

 

So, the oldest PF70 is a '64 quarter so far.

 

Here is the list for PCGS

1964 PF70 Cent

1963 PF70 Nickel

1960 PF70 Dime

1960 PF70 Quarter

1968-S PF70 Half-Dollar

 

Here is the list for NGC

1978-S PF70 Cent

1978-S PF70 Nickel

1976-S PF70 Dime

1964 PF70 Quarter and the next one is 1976-S

1968-S PF70 Half-Dollar and the next one is 1977-S

 

 

Awesome list Jaime. Now the MS70 list? It's pretty much non-existent if I recall.

[comicdonna]

I guessed correctly...it was the 1963 PF70 cent that brought nearly $40K.

 

 

PCGS ultimately bought that back to save themselves the embarrassment. That thing was badly spotted and worth about $10 out of the holder. In the holder the registry lemmings were bidding it up to $40k.

Wow, that was a costly mistake.

 

Good idea for a thread, RMA!

[brg5658]

I guessed correctly...it was the 1963 PF70 cent that brought nearly $40K.

 

Ah, I didn't know about the 1963 PF70 Cent story. Sounds eerily similar to the MS70RD 2003 Cent story...though orders of magnitude more money involved.

 

http://www.pcgs.com/Articles/Detail/4779

[BillJones]

I find it interesting that, given the massive amounts of roll collecting in the 50's and 60's, that there aren't more business strike 70s, at least among dimes and nickels.

I too find this interesting and this is a great question. I've never really thought about tthe oldest.... ....

 

MS-70 is one hell of a grade if you apply it accurately. It means you can’t see anything under a strong glass. The VAST MAJORITY of coins from the 1950s and 1960s were not struck as MS-70s from the instant the dies that made them parted company. MS-70 calls for a perfect strike along with virtually perfect preservation. The mint was not producing that type of business strike quality back in those days.

 

Problem two is that the rolls had to be preserved perfectly, probably from the get-go, which is also a tall order. In addition it takes hours of boring (in my opinion) work going though thousands of coins to find the few that might make MS-70. Then you have to pay grading fees and postage for coins that might back holders that make them worth a buck or two if you miss fire.

 

All in all it does not surprise me that there are no MS-70 coins from that era. There are darn few of them today. With modern Proof coins, that is another story. Even I, “the modern hater” (according to few people ATS) have got a couple PR-70 graded coins.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I find it interesting that, given the massive amounts of roll collecting in the 50's and 60's, that there aren't more business strike 70s, at least among dimes and nickels.

I too find this interesting and this is a great question. I've never really thought about tthe oldest.... ....

 

MS-70 is one hell of a grade if you apply it accurately. It means you cant see anything under a strong glass. The VAST MAJORITY of coins from the 1950s and 1960s were not struck as MS-70s from the instant the dies that made them parted company. MS-70 calls for a perfect strike along with virtually perfect preservation. The mint was not producing that type of business strike quality back in those days.

 

Problem two is that the rolls had to be preserved perfectly, probably from the get-go, which is also a tall order. In addition it takes hours of boring (in my opinion) work going though thousands of coins to find the few that might make MS-70. Then you have to pay grading fees and postage for coins that might back holders that make them worth a buck or two if you miss fire.

 

All in all it does not surprise me that there are no MS-70 coins from that era. There are darn few of them today. With modern Proof coins, that is another story. Even I, the modern hater (according to few people ATS) have got a couple PR-70 graded coins.

 

 

Yeah, that makes sense. I hadn't considered strike issues, even from the 50's and 60's. It's really the 1980's that we finally see the superior quality production take place, with the new equipment and what not.

 

Although to be fair, maybe the Morgans would have had a shot, had grading been around at the time? After all, aren't there quite a few 68s and a handful of 69s (11 that I know of.)

 

With varied quality of production over the decades, maybe some years had better shots than others.

 

Thanks for the reply Bill.

[BillJones]

Although to be fair, maybe the Morgans would have had a shot, had grading been around at the time? After all, aren't there quite a few 68s and a handful of 69s (11 that I know of.)

 

 

I'm not a Morgan dollar expert, but my impression would be that the only dollars with a shot would be dated from 1878 to 1882 and would be from the San Francisco mint. The S-mint made some of the best business strike Morgan dollars ever made during that era.

 

Even so I don't see an MS-70 Morgan Dollars coming from PCGS or NGC. It would be big risk for them to do it. If the consensus was that the coin they graded 70 did not make the grade, it would be an expensive adjustment for them.

 

[cpm9ball]

 

So, the oldest PF70 is a '64 quarter so far.

 

Here is the list for PCGS

1964 PF70 Cent

1963 PF70 Nickel

1960 PF70 Dime

1960 PF70 Quarter

1968-S PF70 Half-Dollar

 

Here is the list for NGC

1978-S PF70 Cent

1978-S PF70 Nickel

1976-S PF70 Dime

1964 PF70 Quarter and the next one is 1976-S

1968-S PF70 Half-Dollar and the next one is 1977-S

 

 

Jaime, I have a 2005-S Silver KS SQ NGC PF70UCAM Mint Error. Does this qualify for a separate catergory? !

 

Chris

[Kamillion]

the only pr70 coins i see lately are modern kennedy's and roosevelt's , state quarters, and some nickels here n there , as well as commemorative / bullion

 

then all these cameos and ultra cameos.

 

rarely see older coins.

[ultra-crepidarian]

I own a PCGS graded PR 70 1964 Kennedy Half Dollar, Certification #: 11013372. There were 3,950,762 Proof Kennedys minted in 1964 and PCGS has certified 29 of these coins as PR 70s. NGC hasn’t certified any 1964 Kennedys as PF70s.

 

I put together a set of silver Kennedys (1992-date) in NGC holders PF 70 UC. I decided to use the PCGS coin for the 1964 slot rather than using a 1964 PF 69 UC because of its historical interest (plus I like older non-UC proofs). These coins were the first US half dollars ever graded ‘a perfect’ PR 70.

 

If NGC guaranteed that it would cross as a 70 I would be glad to send it in. It would be nice to have the whole set in NGC holders.

[James_OldeTowne]

Too bad all those PF-70s are really PF-69s !

[ultra-crepidarian]

Too bad all those PF-70s are really PF-69s !

James, let’s just keep that between ourselves. In a decade or two, when I auction this set off at Scotsman, I expect a really clever description that will induce crazy money bids from our Chinese overlords.

[cpm9ball]

Too bad all those PF-70s are really PF-69s !

 

Adding to what "ultra" said, maybe we should create a special archive for your comment when and if you ever write a description for a 70.

 

Chris

 

PS. I really do enjoy some of your descriptions in the catalogs, and it is worth keeping them just for that reason. With that in mind, I think you should end every description you write with the word "JudGment".