NGC * designation even major PNG dealer doesnot understand it!!

[michael]

i saw in the jan 6 2003 coin world page 83

 

rarcoa long time PNG DEALER had a coin for sale in their ad

 

 

1927 $20 saint gaudens ngc ms-66* $2750 with the quote below this coin in their ad that states

 

yellow orange soft satiny surfaces NGC gave it a "*" designating it as a HIGH END COIN!

 

well the star designation only recognizes the eye appeal of exceptional coins

 

and has nothing to do with the grade of A COIN!! or if it is high end or not

 

i love the designations ngc gives their coins and it is too bad it is misunderstood even by major players!

 

and this is not the first time i have heard about this or being quoted

coins with the star designation that dealers told me were a higher grade or might

upgrade if sent in for regrade!! because of the star on the holder!!

 

oh another note

 

i find this true with the pre 1915 deep/ultra cameo designated coins many,

even some big coin dealers! do not understand this

designation or what it is all about..................

 

sincerely michael

 

 

 

[EVillageProwler]

Hmmm...

 

Michael, in the days of market grading, maybe exceptional eye appeal *should* imply high end in terms of grade?

 

Just a thought...

 

EVP

 

[keithdagen]

I would think that a coin would have to be solid for the grade, and not a barely made it, to be eligible for the star, so solid with great eye appeal would be PQ in my book.

[John Maben]

I suppose one could make the argument that it DOES have something to do with the grade, but we have done our best to make people understand it is not meant to be "PQ", rather a way to designate a coin that has EXCEPTIONAL eye appeal. While a low end coin COULD get a star, it may be a consideration if we were on the fence so to speak...... I think what Rarcoa was trying to say is simply that a star designated coin is a tough find and special when compared to others of the same grade......

 

John

[jtryka]

I don't know much on this, and the only thing I do know about stars is that I see them whenever I knock my head on something really hard. I would prefer not to have the same experience with my coins though!

[gmarguli]

i love the designations ngc gives their coins and it is too bad it is misunderstood even by major players!

 

Who says that RARCOA doesn't understand what the * means? I'd bet 90% of the collectors that know of the * designation think it is for a PQ coin.

[PQSeated]

Isn't it true that grading services will give a coin a higher grade for exceptional eye appeal? So in an essence, it could be considered a PQ coin. Is this what NGC is doing to exceptional eye appealing coins, rather then boosting up the grade? I'm indifferent to the subject, but when buying over the internet without pics, I guess it is beneficial. Just inquiring minds want to know. Thanks

[John Maben]

There is good eye appeal, and their is EXCEPTIONAL eye appeal. Good, or positive eye appeal is taken into consideration in arriving at a grade just as negative eye appeal is also a factor. Truly EXCEPTIONAL eye appeal is seldom found and the star is intended to recognize that elite group of coins. Eye appeal in general can affect a coins grade to a certain point.

[nwcs]

Speaking from a usability engineering point of view, a star always denotes a premium status for a coin. Thus it is open for interpretation. I think the most common interpretation is upper end coin within the grade. And given crackout popularity, I can see someone trying to upgrade a star to a low-end coin at the next grade level. Perhaps to clear up confusion, moving the star to a different location not associated with the grade would help?

 

For example, from

 

NGC MS-67*

 

to

 

NGC * MS-67

 

Just a simple placement changes the modification and interpretation of the star from being related to the grade to being related to the coin and not the grade.

 

Neil

[Android]

Neil,

 

Look carefully at any NGC star coin you see and you'll start to see very clearly what John is saying. I've looked at a few (they are rare), with technical grades of MS64 and MS65. Their technical grade was correct, but their LOOK was incredible. If you happen to be looking in a dealers case at dozens of the same denomination, the one with the star will jump out at you.

 

Andy

 

P.S. - I am now the proud owner of a 1939 D NGC MS67* Washington Quarter that I submitted from a raw collection my favorite local dealer let me cherrypick! I thought the coin had that "star" quality, and NGC thought so too. I'll post a picture when I figure out how to take pictures of coins with the digital camera I got for Christmas!

[Coinosaurus]

I have to admit I'm a bit confused as well. Suppose you had a coin in a 65* holder. 6 or 12 months ago, wouldn't this same coin have had a reasonable shot at making 66? Wouldn't it STILL have a shot at 66? If this is true market grading, and the coin will sell for 66 money just because it is so choice, then shouldn't it have a 66 on it?

 

I do appreciate the intentions of NGC in trying to give some additional opinion about a certain coin. What would be even better is if we got the technical grades and eye appeal grades split up, perhaps a 5 or 10 point scale for the eye appeal rather than just "1 star" or "no stars". IIRC they do the same thing for comic books, there is an overall grade but also a separate evaluation for the whiteness of the pages. In a perfect world, the coin gets graded for all attributes: technical grade, strike, luster, marks, AND overall eye appeal.

[Android]

I have to admit I'm a bit confused as well. Suppose you had a coin in a 65* holder. 6 or 12 months ago, wouldn't this same coin have had a reasonable shot at making 66? Wouldn't it STILL have a shot at 66?

 

It may have a shot at 66, but it also may have the same shot at 64 and still retain the star. I'm not so sure the star has anything to do with market grading. It seems to me that the star denotes a coin that the graders feel is extremely pretty, and nothing else. Although eye appeal is one aspect of a coins technical grade, I don't think it alone can over-ride the other grading aspects as to the numerical grade the coin receives.

 

Andy

[Gunsmoke]

Maybe I am just simple person, but it seems to me that you all are making too much out of the star designation. My understanding is it is separate from the grade. The coin's grade depends upon its grade alone and the star just means it has excellent eye appeal.

 

Why is this concept so hard to grasp? If you see an MS 66 coin with a star it means it will grade MS 66 and is nice to look at too. Am I missing something? Am I wrong?

[coinman1794]

Yes, you are right, Gunsmoke. That's the way it is.

[jtryka]

Isn't this all just a way of getting back to technical grading vs. the current trends towards market grading? i.e. MS-65*=technical MS-65 but really pretty=Market MS-66?

[PQSeated]

How should * coins be priced? Say if you have a MS65*. Would the price be the average between what the coin sells for in MS65 and MS66?

[gmarguli]

How should * coins be priced? Say if you have a MS65*. Would the price be the average between what the coin sells for in MS65 and MS66?

 

That depends on the coin. If it got the * for monster toning, then it could be 10X MS65 or MS66 price. If it got the * for nice luster, then probably somewhere in between MS65 and MS66 (probably closer to MS65 than MS66). If it got the * because of the cameo aspects of it, then it could add practically no premium.

[Android]

Why is this concept so hard to grasp? If you see an MS 66 coin with a star it means it will grade MS 66 and is nice to look at too.

 

Yeah, that is essentially it, but the coin is EXCEPTIONALLY nice to look at. If you had five of the same series, same date coin, all MS66 but one with the *, you'll for sure notice a big difference in the beauty of the coin from the others.

 

Andy

[Android]

Greg,

 

Thanks for your input on pricing *'s. It's always baffled me as to how to price a * coin. The only thing I wonder about though is the condition rarity element in a * coin. For example, I received an MS67 * on a 1939D Washington I recently submitted. The total population for MS67 is 40 with none higher. Adding the *, the population is now 2 with none higher. I don't have the slightest idea what kind of premium, if any this coin would deserve.

 

Andy

[coinman1794]

Because the star is relatively new and most coins were graded before the star came out, star coin populations are essentially irrelevant, at this point. These populations are in no way reflective of the rarity of star coins, because there is no way to tell how many of the already graded NGC coins would get the star on designation review, or how many coins graded by other services would cross over as a star coin. To price these coins, you just have to take the coin itself into consideration, as has already been said.

 

The star, by itself, doesn't necessarily add value; it just sets the coin aside as being one of those exceptionally appealing examples that occasionally can be found. Such coins will command a premium anyway, because most knowledgeable numismatists are able to distinguish coins that are exceptional from the rest. The star just makes appealing coins easier to spot, particularly in today’s electronic age. For instance, I use the star designation as a way for me to tell if a coin is exceptionally appealing when I don't have the advantage of seeing it in person.

 

[John Maben]

KeithDagen said:

 

"I would think that a coin would have to be solid for the grade, and not a barely made it, to be eligible for the star, so solid with great eye appeal would be PQ in my book."

 

It could be at the low end, but not too likely. Most are at the mid range, does that make them PQ? Not in my book. A PQ coin is thought of as one that is at the high end for the grade to right on the borderline for the next grade. Why confuse the two?

 

Neil said:

 

"Speaking from a usability engineering point of view, a star always denotes a premium status for a coin. Thus it is open for interpretation. I think the most common interpretation is upper end coin within the grade. And given crackout popularity, I can see someone trying to upgrade a star to a low-end coin at the next grade level. Perhaps to clear up confusion, moving the star to a different location not associated with the grade would help?"

 

Definitely open to interpretation. If the most common interpretation is that it is an upper end coin, that would be a misinterpretation. If someone is trying to obtain upgrades, they would have a larger pool of coins to choose from in high end, borderline next grade non-star coins, using a trained and expierienced eye, rather that breaking out stars. We do not deliberately undergrade a coin that gets the star, we are aware of this perception, and double check the grade mentally. Moving the star to another place on the label is totally logical but wouldn't clear up the confusion. Only time and the dissemination of accurate information will do that. We've explained it numerous times, and will continue to do so. Many already grasp the concept fully.

 

Gunsmoke said:

 

"Maybe I am just simple person, but it seems to me that you all are making too much out of the star designation. My understanding is it is separate from the grade. The coin's grade depends upon its grade alone and the star just means it has excellent eye appeal.

 

Why is this concept so hard to grasp? If you see an MS 66 coin with a star it means it will grade MS 66 and is nice to look at too. Am I missing something? Am I wrong?"

 

No. You are right on the money. Again, an argument could be made that the two are related, but not directly, and in my view they are distinctly different.

 

GMarguli said:

 

IN RESPONSE TO: How should * coins be priced? Say if you have a MS65*. Would the price be the average between what the coin sells for in MS65 and MS66?

 

"That depends on the coin. If it got the * for monster toning, then it could be 10X MS65 or MS66 price. If it got the * for nice luster, then probably somewhere in between MS65 and MS66 (probably closer to MS65 than MS66). If it got the * because of the cameo aspects of it, then it could add practically no premium."

 

This makes sense. There is no blanket formula or premium.

 

Coinman said:

 

"Because the star is relatively new and most coins were graded before the star came out, star coin populations are essentially irrelevant, at this point. These populations are in no way reflective of the rarity of star coins, because there is no way to tell how many of the already graded NGC coins would get the star on designation review, or how many coins graded by other services would cross over as a star coin. To price these coins, you just have to take the coin itself into consideration, as has already been said."

 

Agree, 100%.

 

"The star, by itself, doesn't necessarily add value; it just sets the coin aside as being one of those exceptionally appealing examples that occasionally can be found."

 

Agree, 100%.

 

"Such coins will command a premium anyway, because most knowledgeable numismatists are able to distinguish coins that are exceptional from the rest."

 

It's hard to say what will command a premium at what will not. It all depends on the buyers and market forces that are at work. Often bargains are there to be had, while in other instances, coins can bring what most would agree is way too much. Go figure. Or better yet, don't go figure. Just buy what you like.

 

"The star just makes appealing coins easier to spot, particularly in today’s electronic age. For instance, I use the star designation as a way for me to tell if a coin is exceptionally appealing when I don't have the advantage of seeing it in person."

 

Great! I think it is also comforting to know that our group of professionals liked the coin enough to designate it a star.

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nwcs]

Thank you for the details, John. I'm new to the NGC side of things. I've been moving along that path for a while. After reading your reply, I believe I better understand the star designation. Maybe a few of mine would get it. One question, do all monster tones get the star?

 

Neil

[John Maben]

Neil,

 

Welcome, and I might add that you are moving in the right direction. I am glad I was able to clear things up a bit. There is also an article or two about the star on the NGC website. In applying the star, we routinely reject coins that have distracting spots, blemishes, planchet streaks, or fingerprints, even if they are otherwise toned or untoned monsters. This can cause disappointment and confusion if the submitter doesn't understand our criteria. Please take note of the word "distracting", as we're not saying it would be impossible to get the star with these conditions, depending on the severity, location, and other characteristics of the coin. As an example, a tiny or microscopic spot or two that is barely visible may not exclude an otherwise phenomenal coin. Even so, our criteria is extremely strict.

 

John