A little journey back to 1870...

[EZ_E]

This is my latest purchase, an 1870 Seated Liberty silver dollar. I did a google search for a little history but all numismatic and historical comments are welcomed!

 

 

The above coin was recently purchased for a meager $875 and is graded by NGC as AU 58. Considering the price of the 1995 W silver eagle and many other moderns, I feel that many seated liberty coins are a real bargain in today's market.

The above dollar has the look and feel of an original coin. It seems that most dollars of the pre-Morgan era have been overly dipped and harshly cleaned as can be seen in the following example:

 

 

Here is a little more info on the 1870 issue:

 

1870 SILVER DOLLAR

 

 

Mintage:

Circulation strikes: 415,000

Proofs: 1,000

 

Designer: Christian Gobrecht

 

Diameter: 38.1 millimeters

 

Metal Content:

Silver - 90%

Copper - 10%

 

Weight: 26.73 grams

 

Edge: Reeded

 

Mintmark: None (for Philadelphia) below the eagle on the reverse

 

SEATED LIBERTY SILVER DOLLARS -

WITH REVERSE MOTTO (1866-1873)

 

The 1870 S issue is an extremely rare issue that presently receives very little attention. There is an estimated 10-12 in existence. One example sold for $1,092,500 last year via Stack's.

 

The 1870 CC issue saw 12,462 strikes leave the mint.

 

The following is a wonderful, outstanding example of the date. Man, I'm drooling more than my St. Bernard just viewing it.

 

 

1870 Seated Liberty Silver Dollar NGC MS64 Lot #816

NGC graded Mint State 64.

Price Realized

$7,475

 

 

 

Detailed Description

The 1870 is certainly not the rarest Motto issue in the Seated Dollars series, but it is more challenging to locate than either the 1871 or the 1872. Nearly in the Gem category, this overall smooth example exhibits brilliant centers within vivid russet and cobalt-blue rim accents. The sharp strike is free of criticism.

 

Ok now, boardsters. I issue a challenge! Let's get some talk about coinage circulating (unless, of course, you'd rather talk about the new nickels. )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

p.s. Here is another image that's pretty enough to make a grown man cry:

 

[TomB]

I love Seated Liberty coins and your coin screams cool! It looks like an image from Pinnacle, is that where it was from?

 

One thing that has always given me inner conflict is the attribution of the design to Christian Gobrecht. While it's obvious that this is the same design stencil as the Gobrecht dollar, it is so far removed from it aestheticaly that it seems to only bear a superficial resemblance to the original.

 

Too bad about the enormous obverse thumbprint on the 1870 NGC MS64 that you posted.

[EZ_E]

I love Seated Liberty coins and your coin screams cool! It looks like an image from Pinnacle, is that where it was from?

 

One thing that has always given me inner conflict is the attribution of the design to Christian Gobrecht. While it's obvious that this is the same design stencil as the Gobrecht dollar, it is so far removed from it aestheticaly that it seems to only bear a superficial resemblance to the original.

 

Too bad about the enormous obverse thumbprint on the 1870 NGC MS64 that you posted.

 

TomB., you're very astute! I did get the coin from Pinnacle.

 

Great design comment! What does everyone else think about this view?

 

Yeah, the thumbprint kind of is a slap in the face but its original beauty still speaks volumes!

[michael]

a neat coin victor and definately not the generic/common date for the series if any seated dollAR CAN be called common

 

if they had the demand of morgans this coin would be ten times the price you paid

 

for me seated dollars usually look not too good eye appeal wise and your coin is definately the exception to the rule with a nice thick skin to it and great eye appeal

 

 

looks like envelope toning to me

 

i would not mind seeing this coin in person sight seen

 

most all business strike seated dollars really have not too great eye appeal and also many many problems like nicks scrapes cleaning harsh at times and dark dirty and just plain ugly

 

your coin is a great value underappreciated undervalued coin something you never see especially so with eye appeal as your coin has!!! as usually you see really worn coins below xf and with lots of damage or choice unc.

 

this coin is a really great value coin and makes one hellvua type coin!

 

 

michael

[EVillageProwler]

The MS64 (NGC) 1870 dollar has the toning pattern of an Amon Carter coin. Where did you get the image?

 

And, your picture of the PF 1850 dollar looks familiar. It was in a major auction within the past year, correct?

 

Since we're now talking about Seated Dollars, let me ask a few questions:

 

* Identify all MS dates for which there is no known GEM specimens.

* Identify TWO diagnostics that differentiate an 1851 ORIGINAL from a RESTRIKE. (You can't say one is a PF and the other an MS since all known MS are PL.)

* Identify ALL MS-graded 1871CC dollars.

* Identify the current location(s) of the two known specimens of the fantasy 1866-dated NO MOTTO proofs.

* Discuss recent research into the matter of ORIGINAL vs RESTRIKE for the pre-1851 PF specimens.

 

Yes, TDN, you may answer -- but let the others have a crack at this first.

 

EVP

 

PS EZ_E - nice coin you got!

[Hoot]

* Identify all MS dates for which there is no known GEM specimens.

 

No dates are MS, only coins.

 

* Identify TWO diagnostics that differentiate an 1851 ORIGINAL from a RESTRIKE. (You can't say one is a PF and the other an MS since all known MS are PL.)

 

1) The ORIGINAL coins were the first struck and the RESTRIKES were the second.

2) The ORIGINAL coins sell for more than the RESTRIKES.

 

* Identify ALL MS-graded 1871CC dollars.

 

They are ALL 1871-CC and therefore readily identified when graded in mint state.

 

* Identify the current location(s) of the two known specimens of the fantasy 1866-dated NO MOTTO proofs.

 

Is this a quantum state question? If so, that sort of precision does not exist.

 

* Discuss recent research into the matter of ORIGINAL vs RESTRIKE for the pre-1851 PF specimens.

 

TDN is using back issues of Numismatic News AS WE SPEAK to look into the matter. I'll get back to ya.

 

Hoot

 

p.s. Great questions EVP, I simply am not in a state of mind to resist.

[EVillageProwler]

[Tradedollarnut]

Great thread. I very much like your AU58...looks like a very nice coin. I also had "Amon Carter" pop into my mind when I viewed the MS64 1870. However, Amon only had a proof - no circ strike at all. The 1850 picture I would guess is from the CoinFacts site. It has the appearance of the Fairfield specimen - except that the small carbon dot on Liberty's thigh hallmarking the coin isn't apparent.

 

There are numerous dates without certified gems in the series. Perhaps an even more challenging question would be to name the three dates where no coin is certified higher than an MS63?

 

With regard to the 1871-CC, there are two fantastic coins of the date hailing to old time collections. The James A Stack PCGS MS64 is in my collection. It retains its wonderful originality and eye appeal. The Norweb NGC MS64 unfortunately appears to have been conserved prior to being upgraded. It still appears on the PCGS pop report as an MS63.

[EVillageProwler]

Perhaps an even more challenging question would be to name the three dates where no coin is certified higher than an MS63?

 

In the "spirit" of Hoot, I have to mention that I don't have access to the pop reports from ACG and NTC.

 

 

EVP

[EVillageProwler]

Post from EZ_E, who seems to be unable to post right now:

 

---

EVP,

 

I got the SL images from:

 

___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ecoinfacts%2ecom%2fsilver_dollars%2fseated_liberty_dollars%2f1870_silver_dollar%2ehtm'>LINK

 

...the coin facts web site. TDN was right on the money. You two are true scholars! That was one of the reasons that I posted this thread, i.e. to stir up some good numismatic discussion.

 

You had some great questions presented. Unfortunately, I have no library to research the answers. I do remember the Coin World articles on the no motto 1866. Of course, one just turned up in Maine, found by a librarian. The other was stolen from the Duponts, I believe, but was later recovered.

 

Thanks for your input on this thread.

 

p.s. Please post this PM on the thread for me since I'm not able to right now. Thanks.

---

 

EVP

 

PS Yes, I know the link he provided doesn't work.

[EVillageProwler]

Perhaps an even more challenging question would be to name the three dates where no coin is certified higher than an MS63?

 

I'll post my answer to this publicly since I got it wrong: 70CC, 70S and 59S.

 

I guess a followup to TDN's question is which one did I get wrong, and *how* is it wrong? That is, which is the coin (or coins) that make my choice wrong.

 

BTW, the pops for this series at these grade levels can be sufficiently rarified that you can actually identify the coins in question.

 

EVP

[Tradedollarnut]

EVP: it seems no one wants to play, so I'll answer a few of your questions:

 

The dates with no gems certified at either NGC or PCGS are as follows: 1840, 42, 43, 45, 46-O, 50, 50-O, 55, 56, 70-CC, 70-S, 71-CC. This was off the top of my head, so it's possible I missed one or two.

 

The dates with nothing certified above MS63 are: 1855, 1870-CC and 1870-S. You forgot about Stellar's NGC MS65 1859-S. The finest 1870-S is the James A Stack coin and is certified by PCGS as MS62. It's the only date where no MS63 or better is certified.

[EVillageProwler]

The dates with no gems certified at either NGC or PCGS are as follows

 

That wasn't quite my question. There is a purported 1870CC that is a GEM. I am not saying you're wrong. Rather, I feel that this one specimen is worthy of further discussion for those who like this series.

 

Who can identify this purported GEM 70CC specimen?

 

BTW, since we're talking about MS pieces, and there is a raging debate about the existence of 70CC SPECIMEN STRIKINGS, I wonder how many of the actual MS63-graded pieces are in actuality SP63!!!

 

EVP

 

PS Ok, "raging" may be a bit overkill...

[EVillageProwler]

Another post by EZ_E:

 

---

Apparently, there aren't any unless it is not graded. There are none graded by NGC or PCGS (and the others don't count) . BTW, it appears that there are quite a few SL$ dates graded ms 65 by NGC.

 

Here are some more stats:

 

Significant examples:

PCGS MS-63. Ex - Superior Galleries' "Pre-Long Beach Sale" May 27-29, 2001, Lot 3603, where it was described as follows: "1870CC PCGS graded Mint State 63. A splendid specimen struck from nicely polished obverse and reverse dies, wholly prooflike. Delicate golden brown toning on both sides compliments this. One of the nicest we have seen of this extremely popular first-year issue. High aesthetic appeal plus a high-end Mint State numerical grade combine to make this one of the finest known (only 10 certified by PCGS & NGC as of April 2001, with none higher). PCGS holder #6553889. Die notes: This is obverse die 1, with date centered, numerals medium weight in the die. Perfect CC mintmark without doubling on the second C as seen on another reverse."

 

Recent appearances:

Brilliant Uncirculated. Ex- Stack's "The September Sale", September 12-13, 2000, Lot 616, sold for $8,050.00

 

NGC AU-55. Ex - Ira & Larry Goldberg Coin & Collectibles' "The Fairchild Family Trust Collection Sale", May 28-30, 2001, Lot 875, illustrated, sold for $3,335.00

 

EF/AU. Ex - Stack's "The University of Notre Dame Sale", March 20-21, 2001, Lot 451, plated, sold for $2,185.00

 

PCGS EF-40. Ex - Bowers and Merena Galleries' Robert W. Schwan Collection Sale, October 26-27, 2000, Lot 1474, sold for $1,495.00

 

VF-35, cleaned and retoned. Ex - Superior Galleries' "Pre-Long Beach Sale", October 1-3, 2000, Lot 3554, illustrated, not sold

 

VF-30, Lightly cleaned. Ex - Heritage Numismatic Auctions, Inc.'s "Long Beach Signature Sale", May 31-June 2, 2001, Lot 5740, not illustrated, sold for $517.50

 

VF-20. Ex - Bowers and Merena Galleries' Robert W. Schwan Collection Sale, October 26-27, 2000, Lot 1475, sold for $632.50

 

Choice Very Fine. Ex - Stack's "65th Anniversary Sale", October 17-19, 2000, Lot 1269, plated, sold for $920.00

 

Fine-12. Ex - Bowers & Merena Galleries' "The Cabinet of Lucien M. LaRiviere, Part II", March 15-17, 2001, Lot 366, sold for $632.50

 

Varieties:

 

Notes:

The finest examples graded by PCGS are 8 MS-63's.

 

Sources and/or recommended reading:

"The PCGS Population Report, October 2003" by The Professional Coin Grading Service

 

 

Please, post. Sorry for being so lame, but I want my voice heard!

---

 

EVP

[Tradedollarnut]

EVP: I am very leery of calling raw coins gem. Case in point is the 1870-CC dollar graded as 'Gem BU finest known' in Auction 84 and reappearing in the 1989 LR French sale. It appeared to be a stunning gem coin, yet when it certified it was graded MS63 by PCGC [probably the result of a light cleaning].

 

Also, the Eliasberg 1846-O was called a 'Gem Prooflike BU' by Bowers when auctioned in 1997. It was graded MS63 by PCGS as well [definitely a light cleaning].

 

Bottom line is that even tho a coin may be called gem bu by others, until it's in the holder it isn't necessarily so.

[EZ_E]

EVP an TDN,

 

Thanks for all of your input on this thread!

 

EVP: I am very leery of calling raw coins gem. Case in point is the 1870-CC dollar graded as 'Gem BU finest known' in Auction 84 and reappearing in the 1989 LR French sale. It appeared to be a stunning gem coin, yet when it certified it was graded MS63 by PCGC [probably the result of a light cleaning].

 

TDN, this is generally true but occasionally a TPG service will place a ceiling for a series/date with which it may be graded. I'm sure that many senior numismatists would agree.

 

If EVP has personally seen the gem example and concurred with the grade then I would be more apt to believe it.

 

How about it EVP? Have you personally see the example and if so, how would you grade it?

[EVillageProwler]

How about it EVP? Have you personally see the example and if so, how would you grade it?

 

Nope. But, thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm afraid that my grading isn't so good that it is beyond question.

 

EVP

[Hoot]

EVP and TDN - Thanks for sharing so much knowledge! The study that each of you have undertaken is amazing.

 

Hoot

[Tradedollarnut]

EVP - I'm sure you're talking about Weimer White's 70-CC. Supposed to be deeply prooflike with frosted cameo devices. Would be interesting to see how it grades...

 

With regards to the other dates, I have eagerly sought reports of gems in old auction catalogs. I can report the following:

 

1840. Very rare in MS64. The Fairfield specimen was cataloged as gem and realized a very high price for the time. Yet it was certified as MS64 back in 1989 and hasn't gone up. It's oh so close tho!

 

1842. Numerous examples have been cataloged as gem, yet none have made the cut to date. I've seen a couple that are oh so close!

 

1843. Very rare in MS64. None cataloged as gem. I've seen one that is oh so close!

 

1845. Very rare in MS63! None cataloged as gem. The Norweb coin is the finest reported and it is certified as MS64.

 

1846-O. Very rare in MS64. Only the Eliasberg coin cataloged as gem, but now certified MS63 due to a light cleaning.

 

1850. Very rare in MS64. None cataloged as gem.

 

1850-O. Very rare in MS63! Only one cataloged as gem. It is undoubtably the long time PCGS MS64.

 

1855. Very rare in MS63! Only one cataloged as gem, but it hasn't appeared unless it certified as 63.

 

1856. Very rare in MS64. Only one cataloged as gem. It is probably the MS64 on the PCGS pops for many years.

 

70-CC. Perhaps just the one gem. None certified above MS63.

 

70-S. Rumors of a gem unc in the San Francisco area. Unconfirmed, tho. Finest certified is MS62.

 

71-CC. Just the two MS64's as previously discussed.

[Tradedollarnut]

Here's some more passion to pass on. In the Seated Dollar series, there are some all time favorite coins that are somewhat famous to series afficianados. These include:

 

The Garrett/Fairfield 1848. Currently certified by PCGS as MS66 - the finest certified by 3 full grades! Very low mintage date that is extremely rare in MS63 and above. Held by the Garrett family for near a full century.

 

The Fairfield 1849. Currently certified by PCGS as MS67! Amazing swirling luster and flawless fields. The finest dollar from the first two decades of coinage.

 

The Akers 1857. A date that normally comes prooflike and flatly struck - this coin is the exception. It is sharply struck and very frosty.

 

The Stellar 1859-S. Currently certified by NGC as MS65 - the finest by two grades. Extremely rare in MS63 and above since most were exported to China as a defacto trade dollar.

 

The Hayes 1866. Currently certified as MS67 by PCGS. Amazing satiny fields with burnt orange periphrial toning. A lovely coin! The finest with motto dollar.

 

The James A Stack 1870-S. Currently certified as MS62 by PCGS. The only uncirculated specimen confirmed of this great rarity. Only 9 coins are known of this date. Originally thought to be presentation pieces, the fact that almost all are circulated casts doubt upon this theory. A World Class rarity!

 

The James A Stack 1871-CC. Currently certified as MS64 by PCGS. The picture of this coin is to die for! Amazing electric blue periphrial toning and wonderful mint bloom. The only reason it's not an MS66 is a myriad of die finishing lines, mixed with a few hairlines, on both surfaces.

 

The Austin 1872-CC. Currently certified as MS65 by PCGS. Held for nearly a century by the family of a government official, this specimen surfaced in the 1974 Austin sale by Bowers and Ruddy. Gorgeous periphrial toning and lustrous surfaces.

 

The Share 1873-CC. Currently certified as MS65 by PCGS - the finest by 5 full grades! A gem 73-CC? OMG!

[EVillageProwler]

The Garrett/Fairfield 1848.

 

Ugly, no eye appeal and way overgraded. But, very rare in any true UNC grade!

 

The Fairfield 1849.

 

Ugly, no eye appeal and way overgrade.

 

The Akers 1857.

 

Ugly, no eye appeal and way overgraded. True comment about the striking characteristic.

 

The Stellar 1859-S.

 

Now, this is a nice piece!!! But, way overrated in MS60-62 range.

 

The Hayes 1866.

 

Ugly, no eye appeal and way overgraded! What do you expect from a politician?!?

 

The James A Stack 1870-S.

 

Ugly, no eye appeal, way overgraded and harshly scrubbed. I own the really nice UNC specimen, but I'll never sell!

 

The James A Stack 1871-CC.

 

Ugly, no eye appeal, way overgraded and lightly cleaned. Overrated date.

 

The Austin 1872-CC.

 

Ugly, no eye appeal and way overgraded. And, impaired luster.

 

The Share 1873-CC.

 

Ugly, no eye appeal and way overgraded.

 

TDN - you have NO EYE FOR THIS SERIES!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EVP

[Tradedollarnut]

Scratch the 1846-O off that list - one just went up at NGC!

[EZ_E]

A Proof 65 Cameo (NGC) 1870 $ is being offered by ANR in an auction in June.